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January 1, 2019
Back to work in the arena with Carlotta this morning.
I can feel how everything is starting to fall into place - fan-tas-tic! Most of the time, a small shift, a minuscule twitch with a finger on the reins or change of focus - and off she goes into the desired direction, changes laterals, does turns on haunches etc.
Being the badass smartie she is, she sometimes misinterpretes my cues, especially when she doesn't want to do what I am asking for (mainly backing), she offers something else instead. Quarter turns are soo much less demanding, hahaha. But, of course, no way, Madam, we are doing this now. And suddenly she do can do it promptly and softly.
All the many changes of direction with outside rein (most of the time, still struggling a bit to the left) make things so smooth by now, it's pure pleasure.
I still have issues with lifting my hip (ouch at times!), so working on making it smaller and smaller, so we are both happy.
We did a lot of stops upon just coiling my pelvis, without reins, worked in about 80% of the cases. For the rest, a tiny additional squeeze on the long rein did the job. Will experiment a bit with an additional voice cue over the next few sessions. Problem with this is that she immediately slams on the breaks from any gait when I say psst or aaaand (whoa), but on the forehand at the moment, so not what we really want. More time for trial and error.
Anyway, a great start of the year
January 4, 2019
Got my riding session in this morning at 7, when it was only 31°C :-D
And Carlotta and I are starting a new adventure: we are part of the Intrinzen Project Proprius.
Fascinating, but at this stage still everything to learn - will be an interesting journey. Another one....
Riding went well. I took a bit of video, which is taking time to process. And lots of empty arena in it. I need to learn how to use my camera effectively on a monopod (tied to an arena post)
January 6, 2019
Cliff adjusted my seat during yesterday's lesson. He said my left hip was too much up (and not enough weight in left stirrup) and my right shoulder too. Boy, did that feel weird when I sat in that position!
So, spent this morning's ride to practice this posture. Starting to feel slightly more normal.
Carlotta was surprised, for sure, about my fumblings! But I got some nice feeling of her tuning into me. Backing came very softly, and the turns are nice too. Then I just had to be baaad and asked her for a little spanish walk. Um... from then on, she wanted to do but that for at least another 5 minutes ;-)
Then some lovely laterals (remembering this time to look into the direction of travelling for shoulder-in, duh!), including half-pass. This is still a struggle for her, especially to the right, but even Cliff had to work a bit to get it right with her.
Once unsaddled, I asked her for the "crunch" from our new Intrinzen work. The first attempt had been... well... not very successful, but this time, I suddenly felt her withers, then her back, lift under my hand. Wow! Didn't expect that to happen so soon!
January 9, 2019
This morning was really interesting.
Carlotta worked nicely under saddle, but wasn't really sure what I wanted when I asked her for crunches from up there...
I did notice that her canter has been becoming very elevated and powerful the last few times, almost like a "panther walk in canter". Not the most comfy thing to sit, but she really seems to pick up on the Intrinzen idea of autonomy. And her turns in canter became easier for her as well, so increased agility already!
But then came the Eureka moment! After unsaddling, I just stood at her side, about mid-rump, very softly resting my hand on her back, and doing nothing else. And suddenly I felt her arch up, lift her withers and back into a beautiful crunch! She got biiig praise and hugs and goodies. I walked over to the right side, put my hand on her back and again did nothing else. And there she went again: lovely crunch!
Couldn't wipe the smile from my face.
January 10, 2019
Crunches under saddle are starting to work.... as long as we do them in her "comfort spot" on the north corner of the arena. I tried one somewhere else, and she just walked on.... :-D
And she can do them (me on the ground) now with my hand held in the air above her back or withers.
Smart girl!
January 11, 2019
Another lesson with Cliff today. Boy, do I have difficulties sorting out that lifting of inside hip!!! For sidepassing at this occasion. I kept collapsing my inside hip and at times looked like Sebastian the Crab from The Little Mermaid! ;-)
One day, it will work. And I have a week to practice now. Love the way Cliff picks one thing to work on each time, so we have all the time we need to process it.
Chris had brought her Vicente for the first time today. He was a very good boy and took it all in his stride.
January 12, 2019
Am I dreaming?
Today's riding session included quite demanding elements (for me to use my inside hip correctly and for Carlotta to learn sidepassing). So, in between, I took her to her comfort spot and asked for crunches. She was very happy to perform, after one or two even with me just sitting passively and no cues!!
A bit later, I asked her in another spot, also with reins on her withers and doing nothing. She thought a sec, then walked off. But at next try, she lifted both withers and back beautifully, and each time from then on.
Suddenly, I heard rattattatttaaaaa in the distance. Yes, the local motorcycle kids were arriving, about a dozen of them. Steinar's (Intrinzen instructor) remark came into my mind to allow the horse to be the master of her own fears and tensions. So I stopped in the middle of the arena (which is about 30 m from the road), dropped the reins on her neck and did nothing (no expectations at all). When the gang came noisily thundering past, Carlotta watched for a moment with high head, then suddenly went into a beautiful crunch! This was such a wonderful moment - feels like an enormous breakthrough.
Back in the paddock, Keldan came to greet me, so I decided to just play a bit with him, walked to his side and put my hand on his back and shifted my weight a bit backwards. I could see the wheels turn in his head, and then he started to shift his weight a bit back. CT! I changed position frequently (satellite crunches) all around him. Very soon, he started to lift his withers a bit. Being Keldan, he arched his neck beautifully. And then I started to leave some air between my hands and his skin, and he could do it too! I suppose here is a candidate for becoming a superstar!
January 15, 2019
Chris came over early this morning (it was already nice and warm at 8 a.m.) with Margaret and brought Vicente, so we could have a bit of fun with him and Carlotta in my arena. Another good opportunity for him to gain experience under varied circumstances.
Carlotta was not impressed - she immediately switched to Grumpy Bum and growled: This is MY arena! A lot of flattened ears, but she did cooperate with me after all ;-)
Vicente was just a gem, very unimpressed and calm and happy to do whatever Chris asked him (remember: he is still very green), be it walking or trotting, turning, doing nice bends and some more advanced stuff already. Very impressive, this horse.
For once, Carlotta and I felt small when standing at his side. Usually we are the tall ones :-)
I practised my stuff, as usual. Still being crooked here and there and dropping my inside shoulder, hggggnnnnn....
But from time to time, it worked quite well at least.
Margaret kindly took lots of pics and a few videos. And Greg came out and took one to: https://youtu.be/J-oxlonX2to
Too funny how Carlotta switched to a hint of school walk at the end of the video :-D
Thank you, Margaret and Chris.
Thank you also to our wonderful CJ, who built a rail into my tack room, so I can hang my horse rugs over it.
January 22, 2019
Oh what a beauuuutiful summer day, euh, I mean, how st*nking hot it is! And we had a riding lesson with Cliff. I was really half expecting to keel over and fall off my horse from a heat attack ;-)
Chris kindly let me ride first at 10 a.m., but I only held out some 20 minutes, then handed my steed to Cliff who gave her an intensive and impressive training session.
Even Rev was on economy mode today, so they didn't do the full hour either, but rather stopped after a couple of good performances.
Again, a lot of useful things learned and some progress made. Cliff, you are The Best!
January 23, 2019
Another Intrinzen session with Carlotta in the arena. She was happy to walk with me and offer Panther Walk from time to time. No significant improvement on PW since last time. But instead, the crunches were a lot more upward - yay! :-)
So I tried to point forward from a PW, and she did the same trick she had invented last time: going more and more forward and down with her front legs, until her chest almost touched the ground. She looked like a big dog, doing a doggie stretch, and with her front legs crossed on top. So hard not to laugh, and even harder not to reward her for such a splendid creativity!
We did most of our current programme under saddle. Her leg yields are becoming pretty fluent and straight, with very little help from her human friend. Seems I am starting to get my act together on this now.
I asked Cliff yesterday whether it would make sense to do the turns towards the fence from a standstill at first, as we both struggle with this. But today, when I followed Cliff's suggestion to put her into a slight travers position, then ask for the turn, it worked very well and fluently.
It is such a rewarding feeling when you notice that suddenly your aids are becoming so precise that your horse has no problem to react to them correctly! All of Cliff's explanations I can now feel - amazing when I twitch this muscle in my upper thigh, or lift my inner hip and keep my focus straight ahead, or put my knee in just the right spot, and everything suddenly is so easy for my horse and comes so naturally. Wow and wow and wow.
Wish I had known such an instructor some 40 or 50 years earlier - I bet I would be just brilliant by now!
January 24, 2019
Much too hot for whatever outdoor activity. Even the horses are hiding in the deep shadow.
But this morning at 8, it was just perfect, nice and cool and a little breeze. Was fun to play with Carlotta - we enjoyed our interaction, first on the ground, then with a quiet riding session.
Working on improving the crunches, and some of them are starting to look quite nice. She was less keen about the PW, so maybe I have taken the poolnoodle away and out of knee reach too early.
Towards the end of the session, she again offered a deep doggie stretch with crossed front legs and chest going far down towards the ground - caught it on video :-) But maybe not something to encourage her to develop and put into her tool box ;-)
Later nice leg yields, with only small cues, and turns towards the fence and other goodies. I sometimes did some stupid things with my inside hip again, but I was forgiven.
Thank you, Carlotta, you are just lovely!
2 videos (not ideal, as camera too far away) on my youtube channel. When I look at her in the riding video, I hardly can believe her transformation - she looks so incredibly beautiful and noble.
January 27, 2019
Nice progress with our Intrinzen work. There seems to be quite a mind shift in her (and me!). When I come into the paddock to halter her, she has now started to walk towards me! That from Carlotta!!!
And when she needs a break and a good stare into the distance during our sessions, I walk away and do something else, but now she almost immediately turns around and follows me. Each time. Wow!
Today I decided to do something new and put the saddle on her while we did our exercises. And she was a different horse. Much prouder posture. Tentatively, I started to speed up myself and, after a bit of hesitation, she copied me. Went into a slow corto and then, suddenly, she offered two (very low) steps on Panther Walk. But PW it was, definitely!
Jubilees from me, and big praise and cuddles, and goodies.
January 28, 2019
Interesting yet again today. I tried to combine the crunch with forward into the PW for the first time. Lots of puzzles to solve for Carlotta, but she tried so hard, the dear girl.
My attempts to animate her into "crunched forward" went a bit over the top, like hopping around like Bugs Bunny, haha. When she managed her first little tölt/trot ending with a creative hop forward and up, she needed a big break for processing. 3 and a half minutes, before she was ready to interact again.
I was very happy with her cooperation and tries and good will. I have made a number of mistakes, like too far forward at her side and target held too low, putting mental pressure on yet again, but she figured things out nevertheless :-)
The riding session afterwards was just delightful. She was overbubbling with energy and proud posture. Wanted to go into piaffe, but I just said thanks and asked for a walk. Very nice turns and leg yields to both sides upon just lifting my corresponding hip. And yes, I finally remembered to look in front of us for leg yields and shoulder-ins ;-)
She is now offering shoulder-in in corto on her own! After 10 minutes or so I asked for canter and slightly turned my body while she was cantering, and here she went, right into a shoulder-in. Wow! Dismounted immediately and ended the session on this highlight.
Carlotta Super Girl!
January 29, 2019
Backed off from the inadvertantly demanding stuff I had done yesterday and opened my mind to the desirable approach.
Waited for Carlotta to come to me. Tried to run around when she did, but she wasn't ready to follow me yet. No worries.
Stood at her side, asked for crunch with my body language (doing a crunch myself and slightly lifting one hand, palm up) and also introducing a verbal cue: "lift". She got the idea very quickly. So we proceeded to start walking in PW out of the crunch. She is becoming very willing to do this, i.e. go into PW right away.
I have to pay attention to use external focus when we are about to start walking, which means that I point forward with the poolnoodle (or my arm) and take my look off her and look ahead instead. And Crunch and PW myself. Which is pretty hard, especially trying to throw my legs forward. Working on it... but it definitely has a positive influence on the way Carlotta moves. Duh!
There was half an hour left before the hoof trimmer was due, so threw the saddle on her and we worked a bit. As the days before, she was overbubbling with energy, wanted to offer all sorts of fancy things and had lots of power and enthusiasm. I really love the way I can influence direction, bend etc. with just a tiny bit of "knee on", and she stays straight and on track a lot better by now. And when I get carried away, then suddenly realise to readjust my seat, I can see her ears play vividly.
January 30, 2019
My faithful friends and readers here on FB might wonder why I am doing this "weird Intrinzen stuff", so it might be time for an explanation what it is all about. Intrinzen is based on functional human movement (which is scientifically based) which opens new pathways in the brain (not only the horse's!!), in order to create new ways of learning and achieving things.
The goal is to help our horse become autonomous which will in normal cases, along with special work we do with motivation, empower our horse to make his own decisions during training. This does of course not mean that he will from now on be allowed to walk all over us and do only as he pleases. Via well sought-out exercises, the horse learns to use his body and mind in a very efficient way. Insecurities (as well physical as mental), lack of balance and agility are addressed in various ways, always giving the horse time and space to figure out the solutions himself. And allow him to decide when he wants to apply what he is learning. Especially in the beginning, he will very often appear "switched off", i.e. will stare into the distance and seem to ignore his human partner. This is a sign that he is processing (it is not a break, as his nervous system is working overtime) - it may look like a break, but it is not - also staring at something in the distance is not taking his mind off things, but also is processing Once this is done, he will turn towards his human and be ready to continue.
There is a great variety of exercises, which go from doing a "crunch", which is a lifting-up of his withers and his back, while coiling his loins. Then it is combined what is called a "panther walk" (PW), which is a collected way of walking, incorporating the proud posture of the crunch. It can vary in how it is carried out, but we want to see the noble, collected, upright posture, with front legs reaching out far in front, making room behind the elbow. And hind feet following, of course. PW can be done at the walk, but also become much more spectacular, showing very vivid movement, like going up into the air and forward, doing it at the trot, at the toelt (maybe even at the canter).
Once the basics are solid, there is a huge number of things we do with saddle weights, acqua bags and passenger lessons before we ride our horse AND the test is can our horse crunch (like an expert) with our weight - if not we get off and work more on the ground - this is something Steinar is very particular about.
The end goal is a horse that readily makes the decision to be proud and collected in any circumstances. Which means that he will stay sound for a very long time, as he has learned to carry himself in a very effective way. And he has learned a mindset and self-confidence which make him a very safe horse to ride.
You can see some videos here: https://www.intrinzen.horse/
One word of warning about the addressed "bad ass" behaviour. Bad ass can be running around free and proud BUT is more about being proud and having the proper core structure in place and capacity to do movement well - this takes the time it takes and a lot of people just go and do what they see and then their horse falls apart or they get hurt as they dont do the work they need to do first - and if a horse crunches and nickers THAT IS bad ass.
February 7, 2019
After 4 ride-free days, back in the saddle again today for a brief ride. But before, we did our Intrinzen session. I am trying to introduce the gymnastic mat, but Carlotta is still too worried to step on it. So, I am now trying to just put a feed bucket on it and let her eat from it, and decide herself when she will be ready. Which is what Intrinzen is about, of course.
Played with a bit of PW and crunches, which are improving a bit, but still too far back instead of up - ah well, takes the time it takes...
Today, for the first time, she responded to my body language suggestion to increase speed a bit: staightened herself up at the walk and increased energy into an almost corto. Click and treat.
She was full of enthusiasm for the ride, did lovely laterals and prompt, very soft walk-canter transitions, wherever I asked for them.
During one of the breaks (standing calmly with reins on withers and breathing out), there was a Eureka moment: she suddenly walked off in PW. Lots of praise (dang, I didn't have my treatbag with me!), then a bit of walking, and - bang - she decided to do it again! Felt heavenly. Biiig preaise and hugs and end of session.
February 8, 2019
Nele kindly brought Hanna here, so she could pick up her painting. And have a little ride on Carlotta. :-)
Nele's kids, Nelson and Ellie, provided some nice distractions, so we had a slightly modified environment to work in. We started with taking a video (thank you, Hanna) of some Intrinzen work, then Hanna was happy to give it a go.
Quite a challenge, as this was a horse she didn't know at all (and vice versa), in an unknown environment and the horse at liberty, not even a halter on. She did great, and Carlotta really seemed to like Hanna, as she affectionaltely licked her and gave her kisses.
And worked very nicely for her. Then riding time. I hopped on briefly, just to show Hanna the way she is ridden, then it was Hanna's turn. Very good rider with lots of feel and great seat, so they both clicked immediately. At the first corto, Hanna giggled in delight and said to Nele: I am taking this one home!
And she loved Carlotta's level of education and cooperation. But the absolute highlight was that Carlotta started to offer us (first to me, then to Hanna) Panther Walks under the rider! Once she even did a little hop, wanting to speed up, but wasn't quite sure whether this was desirable. I loved her display of raised energy! Julie saw the video and spotted a crunch (which I hadn't noticed!) while doing PW.
From then on, she kept doing PW, and we both laughed with delight when she did. It was SOOO much fun! Thank you, Carlotta, you are an absolute Star!
Took Carlotta back to the paddock and asked her to lie down on hand signal, which she did. Hanna was amused :-D
Video of Carlotta's PW:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLlTHRnNLDk
Notes form Julie:
going well and it is nice to see her moving- I think you need to click less for the most part - we need to let her go a little longer and wait for effort before we click - this is especially so in the crunches as she needs to poof up allot more and not use her neck - when you ask her to focus externally in the crunch - we need the stick long and we need her to crunch while she is doing it (so dont click if there is no crunch) - I am hoping we get some film of this from Steinar this weekend while he is in Denmark - it is linked up for him so fingers crossed. Also watch you are not chasing her - a couple of times you were way behind the 'riding' position so when this happens - do some turns - so mix it up and vary the direction allot and that should help maintain the riding position as it is easier for us to drop back than to catch up.
the reason we struggle here is because we want to click all the time - wait for more effort before you click but her neck needs to get out of the way - so no we dont want to bend yet - just askj her to look forward towards the pointer
a secondary reinforcer should not be a compromise it is the same as a primary so it is the same as a click when a click is not really deserved - she will have days where she does not want to do much so a couple of crunches where effort is clicked for and then stop will work wonders for her
February 12, 2019
Carlotta really surprised me today. Upon Julie's urgent suggestions, I finally gave in and decided to allow 2 weeks without riding and "only" doing Intrinzen. We played a bit with walking together, a few PWs (she wasn't overly keen on that today), and some crunches, trying to improve them. Got two really nice upright ones with chin slightly tucked in. Good I had some jackpots in my treatbag!
Then suddenly, while I ran at her side, she took off at a playful canter and then joyfully put in a kick - at good distance from me. Who would have thought that she had it in herself to play?! Wonderful!
February 15, 2019
Early in the morning, I had the first ride after 2 weeks off riding (for Intrinzen purposes). Princess was pretty hot and goey, no walk or stop possible for about 5 minutes ;-)
But did she look pretty (even from above) with her arched neck and collected posture. The laterals and the leg yields came fluently at the corto. She hasn't forgotten a thing :-D
When she offered me a very calm series of walks and transitions, we called it a day.
February 17, 2019
Have the feeling that she had bee trying too fast and too hard to please me over the last six weeks, since we started this journey.
She is going through a phase now, as I suppose, where she needs time to process. Today again, she didn't want to do PW and only hesitatingly some crunches. So I just asked for 3 or 4 crunches, but those with poofing up, which worked quite nicely.
Then briefly to the mat, and she put her front foot on a few times. Still worried it might move and eat her... . Never mind how long it takes. Will see if I can bring myself to just WAIT now and let her decide (at liberty) when she can approach it and walk on. Even if it takes forever. When I took some hay to the paddock a bit later, Carlotta stood at the gate, then went into a deep dog bow!
From Julie:
there is going to come a time when the mat is going to be poisoned - you need her to have the autonomy - I would recommend that you stop asking her to come to the mat - if she goes to the mat or even thinks of going to the mat click and treat BUT walk away do not take her to it. Often when our horses don't really seem to 'want' to engage it is autonomy at work and this is crucial that you respect this - I see it allot and we need to do exactly as you did BUT you dont ask for anything - see what she offers - give her a massage - then if she does something click and treat for it - this is the hardest part but it is really worth it and once we honour it - it will be done, but if we dont, it is going to happen again and again and with each time it will be harder as our horse will not have the confidence that we are listening. If we respect it straight off the bat and when we find a clickable moment we make a huge fuss and finish up, that process will go very quickly and it does not really come back again unless we start telling our horse what we want. There will be days when they say na not today and thats fine - it is their day of massage
it is hard and intrinzen is harder for us than it is for our horses! it is not really a demanding personality it is more about habits that we form when training - dont look at any of this as training, just look at it as releasing emotional and physical parking brakes.
OK hahahaha - no what she is showing you now is a test of autonomy - so she is asking you to put your money where your mouth is
- you see this is autonomy and 6 months ago you would not have thought she had this in her - so hang in there and trust me with this - I have been through it with Star and I have had contact with so many people with this same pattern
just my views and someone else would probably tell you something different - but it really works well this way - I think it was about the 7th month mark with Star because we were in the first next steps way back when this stuff was not really spoken about - hahahahahaha what have you got to loose...a couple of days of really checking ourselves will tell us for sure
February 17, 2019
Difficult day today, very hard not to feel frustrated.
She was packed with autonomy for the brief Intrinzen session, most of the time wanted to graze. Turned to me once or twice and was willing to walk along my side for a lap, then off again. Gave me one good crunch, so I left it at that.
Looks like my calm, relaxed riding horse has gone out of the window. Carlotta was pretty tense yesterday (first ride after 2 weeks) and tense she was today again. Stopping (which works on coiling my loin and no reins normally) was only possible in her comfort spots, and standing still was soo hard. Took me a lot of work to allow her to simmer down to panics, as Chris calls it jokingly. When she finally managed to give me a good stop and breathed out, I dismounted and called it a day. Oh my, poor girl, this is so hard for her, as it seems.
I know that there is a lot of stuff going on underneath, but I am not (yet) zen enough to allow it without feeling worried and somewhat frustrated.
So, I hear you, and I hope she will be OK and not hold a grudge against me.
From Julie:
these days happen and there is no need to feel frustrated - you respected her choice she gave you a good crunch and you left it at that - it is these days that will really make a difference - embrace them - when you come out the other end you will understand
Ok so you rode her as well - the stuff with Cliff is important to you so you need to weigh up what is best for you and her as I am quite sure riding her with Cliff is not providing any autonomy and the difficulty for her is that one day she has it and the next she is under control - even Steinar with a fully autonomous horse would get off if he had any hint that the horse was not happy - so you need to make the best of the situation and accept that she cannot be provided with autonomy - see the problem is that she was starting to feel empowered but it is not fair to her for her emotions to be up and down like this. You probably have to think about what the trade off can be - I will give it some thought and when I next speak with Steinar I will see what he can suggest (other than what I know he will LOL).
So, I had some thoughts about this:
Cliff is a brilliant rider with perfect timing and very good hands, but there is zero autonomy for the horse when he rides.
It didn't seem a problem for Carlotta to switch between autonomy and being ridden before she had that break. I used to do Intrinzen, then let her graze a bit while I got my gear out, then rode her for 20 to 30 minutes, and she seemed fine with it, all soft and happy to go. Now it all seems changed.
Yes, I will have to weigh what to do, and yes, I understand she must feel betrayed by switching between autonomy and obedience. I wonder whether this is not too much for her and maybe I should postpone Intrinzen until I can give her really several months of break from being ridden, i.e. when I have her bred toChris' Morgan stallion and she gets around 5 or 6 months pregnant until the time the foal is ready for weaning.
I would really love to continue, as in general she seems to love it and showed a lot of enthusiasm in the beginning. Thank you for asking Steinar what he thinks.
When I ride her, I can give her some autonomy and I am soft wherever I can, but there is a programme I am working on, and I just cannot let her "off the leash" while riding her. I do put in frequent breaks, allow her to stand on reins on withers, take deep breaths etc., apply minimal cues and let her think about things for a couple of minutes. But in between, we are doing work. I am absolutely passionate about becoming a really good rider, and this takes hard work at times, and my horse is asked to cooperate, even though asked gently, wherever possible. And it was starting to become very possible very often.
Here is an example of a riding session from end of January (just before the break):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXb8O-NQejQ&t=286s
February 18, 2019
After feeling so miserable all yesterday about the whole thing, I decided to change things today. Asked for a crunch before saddling, then had about 5 minutes of practising our stuff, then stopped in her favourite corner and did nothing. She sighed and then did a crunch (her own decision). Biig praise and goodies (have now your little bag hanging over my shoulder, which works well). Then did nothing again, and she walked off purposfully, then started doing PW!!!
Another big praise, then I let her decide what she wanted to do and where she wanted to go. She happily wandered around, then started to unroll her repertoire (shoulder-in, travers, corto, canter, and even a shoulder-in in canter). When she decided she wanted to finish and walked towards the gate (I ride with the gate open), I just let her and she went and lined up at the MB for me to dismount. After unsaddling, I took her to the arena, brought the mat (folded) and placed the bucket with her supplements on it, where she happily ate it while I took the hay to the paddock.
Julie:
dont feel bad about things - I know it is hard not to and we all go through these things - it is a very hard commitment to be 'all in' and it does not suit everyone and their dreams and goals. What your experience shows today is that autonomy is very important for her and when you give this to her she gives you all of her repertoire by choice - and that is the best feeling for us and for our horse - I think your approach is great - aside from a little bit of a parking brake in her left hind area (and the fact that I do not believe she has the capacity I now believe to be true after all these years with Steinar) her parking brakes are more emotional AND the only way these can be released is through autonomy - I think it sounds like you had a wonderful morning
Me:
Yes, I did, and Carlotta did as well, which is even more important. So I will let her decide what she wants to do during our rides most of the time and not ask for anything from the ground for now, apart from a few crunches here and there.
I can't be "all in", was already very hard for me not to ride these 2 weeks! But I can try to work around and give her as much autonomy as possible. Maybe we can meet on this ground.
Julie:
crunches need more effort so you do need to ask for these on the ground if she shows you she wants to do them - so more effort will give her more capacity and go with it in the PW if she offers this as well, but remember again to ask for more effort - you only have to get 1 or 2 good ones. yes I think that it is a good compromise
February 24, 2019
All going well with Carlotta. I have dropped the liberty work for now and decided to incorporate Intrinzen/autonomy into our riding sessions, so she can have a say and not become frustrated by "obedience all the time".
This seems to work very well. After a few laps on long rein, we do a bit of work. At the moment, Cliff is teaching us counter-bend work, i.e. how to use my hips effectively and smoothly. Carlotta was starting to respond very nicely this morning, was a real pleasure.
Then reins on withers, do nothing, and let her decide. Usually, she now does a crunch or two then walks off and wanders around in the arena, sometimes adding some PW.
An interesting moment was when she suddenly decided to walk through the scary bottleneck between the pedestal and the labyrinth. :-)
Then pick up reins again and continue with some more work. Her general tasks have improved a lot, I feel. Much more suppleness and agility in her movement.
And I think I have improved myself, also for my posture. It can still be hard at times, but there has been a biiiig leap forward. Great feeling!
Thank you so much, Cliff!
The canter can still be sticky at times, especially her tendency to drop the right shoulder. Cliff showed me what to do in this case and it works nicely.... IF I do it correctly! ;-)
She still loves to come to me in the paddock, nickering or whinnying. Sweet! :-) And she is starting to nicker while doing crunches. I can see the connection between us - wonderful feeling.
Love my proud, noble horsie!
February 25, 2019
This about the dogs:
Something extraordinary happened today.
While I was clipping Leo's toe nails (with clicks and liver treats in between), Niko came into my office. He is the one who used to be terrified beyond belief by the idea of having any of his nails even touched by the clippers, and it took a lot of patience to get him over it.
He stood close to me for a while, but I was busy with Leo, so didn't pay attention to Niko. Suddenly I heard a "plop" behind me, as Niko lay down on his bed and waited for his turn to have his nails done!!!!
This was so suprising that I could hardly believe it. But I turned around and did Niko's nails, while he enjoyed his liver treats after each nail.
Turned out that Greg had sneaked up from behind and taken some photos.
February 27, 2019
Very pleasant lesson with Cliff yesterday. We worked more on counter bends, adding some canter too. Carlotta was very cooperative and is now gliding into the movements very gracefully. No photos or videos from it unfortunately.
Got some high fives from Cliff about what we achieved together. Yayyyyy! When I ran out of steam, Cliff took over and did a few minutes of canter work with her. And - tadaaaaa - she once (very calmly and beautifully) gave him a flying change! The first one right at the beginning of the video, and there was another one a bit later too. Wow!
For the warmup, Chris grabbed my umbrella (which I had taken for sun protection) and did some elegant moves with Rev.
Then Renae was having her baptism as a jouster on Paco, teamed up with Chris on Rev. Cliff coached from the ground. All did very well and had a ball on top. Great job, girls and horses!
This morning, Carlotta and I practised at home, adding cortos and canters, as well as switching from counter-bend to half-pass. Once she got the idea, she very happily performed for me.
She was so engaged in the process and hyped up that she couldn't stop at times, especially when we had worked on some collected (school) walk. I didn't force her, but instead gave her the reins and let her show initiative. Which mostly quickly turned into Panther Walk and some crunches. This seems to be a concept that really suits her.
March 2, 2019
Anyway, had my extra-lovely b'day ride this morning at 8. Inaugurated my new air vest (a Two Point Softshell). Boy, sits it tight (or am I just fat?!). I hope it will stretch a bit over time. But I like it a lot better than the Hunter. I think that one will be up for sale soon...
Princess Carlotta was at her best, just one stare-freeze-growing-in-withers moment when neighbour's cat had the audance to walk around their lawn, haha.
Our combos of counter-bends, half-passes, shoulder-ins, travers etc. came fluently and softly - much fun for both of us.
I often see the benefits of our Intrinzen work (even though it wasn't much yet), as she is willing to be brave and walk through the scary bottleneck between pedestal and labyrinth, all by her own choice. Or the repeated crunches she did today and some nice little PWs as well.
It seems to me that her posture has become a lot stronger already - I feel so much more "elevated". And it is easy for her now to respond to my request to lift her inside shoulder.
We had slightly different opinions about canter work, as she thought it was too hot to go through too much effort, so started to canter, then slowed down after a dozen strides. OK, back to walk, and canter transition again. She finally gave in, being the wiser one of the two of us. So, I tried a flying change. After all, Cliff got two, so why not me!
I looked into the opposite direction and lifted my new inside hip, and I could feel the "jump" under the saddle when she changed lead. Her feet got a little bit muddled up, but she did it. It was a premiere for me too. Yay, thanks, Lolle!
March 5, 2019
At today's lesson, Carlotta had the honour to be the first one to set foot on the luxurious new layer of sand in Cliff's arena. Not completely, as we discovered various footprints of small animals who had tested the terrain already.
Of course, Carlotta saw gremlins, sharks and who-knows-what in every corner of the arena, but we managed eventually to get a bit of work done ;-)
When I ran out of steam, Cliff took over and got some canters which looked really nice.
Oh, and I love my new Point Two Softshell vest.
http://www.lemis.com/yvonne/photos/Photos.php?size=2&dirdate=20190306
March 8, 2019
We are having a visitor over the weekend: Bindi, Vago's daughter.
The boys (Leo and Niko) are delighted about the female company, and there is a lot of happy running around in the garden. For the moment, they are all a bit pooped and having a nap.
Oh, looking into those Vago eyes, she definitely has her dad's head. *sniff*
But before she arrived, Carlotta and I did our daily half-hour in the arena. She still has problems with half-pass to the right and canter to the right, where she tries to do sharp turns and at times drops her shoulder. More work to be done.
Her canter to the left was very vivid today, and when I tried to get a flying lead change, we somehow got a bit mixed up with our intentions and almost landed in the fence. Narrow escape. It can get tricky when your horse reacts in the split of a second to your slightest cues and even (in this case undecided) intentions... ;-)
The lateral work is becoming lots of fun: very fluent and soft most of the time. And I am trying to keep my leg position where it belongs. I am adding a little video from Wednesday.
To finish the session, we did a bit of school walk. Feels so good when she becomes all proud and arched and upright and floats along with so much controlled energy. I automatically adopt a very proud posture myself! Then a few steps of piaffe attempts. At the end, she went into a bit of passage! Big jackpot and end of session.
March 9, 2019
Can't stop laughing with delight. Carlotta has made PW her default behaviour, as it looks like. We spent at least half of today's session in it, haha.
She is becoming very comfortable with it and offers it all the time. But today she started to lift herself really, really up in the withers, arching her neck so proudly and coiling her loins - all of her own making! That little bit of Intrinzen we did was apparently enough for her to change completely in her attitude and capacity.
She must have looked like a very noble alta escuela horse.
And when she heard my delighted giggles and jubilees, she lifted even higher, and her legs flew out straight in front of her. She is so light in the front end now that levades come almost automatically. As I didn't ask for this, I didn't encourage it, of course.
Backing is very easy now, with chin nicely tucked in and back lifted. The canters were animated again, she seemed to get carried away by her own beautiful movements ;-)
Such a pity that nobody was there to film my Carlotta Superstar.
From Julie:
YES now we have the proud movement that will change her nervous system - we speak about this in the video - I am sooooooo HAPPY for you and we also speak about the social engagement and how that also alters the nervous system which is what your joy is sending her. I would not worry about the crunches they will come when she wants to show you - yes the passage will come also after the PW - and gee we dont even have to train it!
and see all this is is giving her the opportunity to do something she is proud of - yep I understand how you are feeling
remember all horses regardless of their breeds begin with a great posture and it maybe that she is now rediscovering her true posture
maybe - for me it is really more like a proud behaviour that shows us they feel 'alive' this is why they are doing this in the fear situations - when their reliance is higher and the come down from the sympathetic state they do what makes them proud
I am not sure where all this will take me but I have wanted to work with Sarah for such a long time and at the present time Steinar has taken me as far as he can - I am grateful and I will help him if he needs it but I am pleased I am back where I want to be AND that this movement stuff is complementing it all OK so the video I am editing will help you see what she maybe going through - the three pathway model of the Autonomic nervous system is the key
our job is to get good at what is high and low and then support her
March 10, 2019
Can't stop laughing with delight. Carlotta has made PW her default behaviour, as it looks like. We spent at least half of today's session in it, haha.
She is becoming very comfortable with it and offers it all the time. But today she started to lift herself really, really up in the withers, arching her neck so proudly and coiling her loins - all of her own making! That little bit of Intrinzen we did was apparently enough for her to change completely in her attitude and capacity.
She must have looked like a very noble alta escuela horse.
And when she heard my delighted giggles and jubilees, she lifted even higher, and her legs flew out straight in front of her. She is so light in the front end now that levades come almost automatically. As I didn't ask for this, I didn't encourage it, of course.
Backing is very easy now, with chin nicely tucked in and back lifted. The canters were animated again, she seemed to get carried away by her own beautiful movements ;-)
Such a pity that nobody was there to film my Carlotta Superstar.
March 14, 2019
Yesterday I felt like trying the beautiful new bit Chris gave me for Carlotta. Princess made a few wrinkles around her nostrils and lips, but went well in it.
I have switched back to her usual one today, as she really seems to like this one. The other one will be for a bit later, in our more advanced stages.
Carlotta was in a good mood today, performed beautifully and often offered me crunches, sometimes a whole series of them. And some nicely elevated PWs. She seems to have come to the conclusions that, when I tip my hip (stop signal), this means that she should do either school walk or PW. She is so funny with her creative input.
http://www.lemis.com/yvonne/photos/Photos.php?size=2&dirdate=20190313
Videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmZN22QA-k8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNQUUfOUzmM
March 15, 2019
Lovely lesson with Cliff yesterday, and he seems to notice that my own posture has also improved ;-)
Carlotta had her hands full to learn some new moves, like working in renvers and turning to the opposite direction from it. After a few repetitions, a whole series of switching between travers and renvers. Such a talented girl! Lots of homework for us.
And, for the first time at Cliff's place, she offered me a few tentative steps of PW! Took me completely by surprise. :-)
Then a big session where Cliff was teaching Chris and Renae jousting. This got pretty animated at times, but always under control.
I took "only" 250 photos and 20 videos... took me all yesterday to process it all. Thank you Chris for taking some photos and videos from my lesson.
It was very impressive to watch how the girls and their power steeds did pass after pass. And Cliff always watching closely and coaching. Fasacinating!
http://www.lemis.com/yvonne/photos/Photos.php?size=2&dirdate=20190315
Video footage:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuFg3tO1VxQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75gRuVSq5cY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02JhT-xOaeI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0zZmFEq23c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz-CnIXLloQ&t=47s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_Orj0GYy4g
March 17, 2019
Phew, Valeta is a real little pest at feeding times! She knows she isn't allowed to come into my space when I arrive with the wheelbarrow full of hay, so she takes it on poor Aliyana!
This morning, Valeta was at her hay pile and I was about to pick up the wheelbarrow and make another pile, when suddenly Aliyana reared up at my side and turned into me. Fortunately she was able to avoid me. I noticed that Valeta had come running over from her pile, ears flat and trying to bite and push Aliyana. Believe me, she got a big swearing session and a set of schmackos!
Riding session went super-well, on the other hand. Carlotta was in PW mood. She kept offering it to me all the time. When she thought that my request for, let's say, backing or stopping was inapprorpiate, she immediately started PW'ing, and it got bigger and bigger. Must have looked great. And several times, she started to do Power Trot! Or maybe Power Corto? Couldn't tell, as it were only one or two steps ;-)
But it's great to see her so empowered and enthused!
I became creative again and started "jingling" on the reins a bit while she was in PW, to encourage her to tuck her chin in. Which she did. Wish I had had the camera on....
Threw in a bit of our homework as well, like working on longer cantering (which was very expressive and upwards today) or the laterals. Also some prompt turning upon neck rein. Cliff would have been pleased, I bet ;-)
Better get back to my photo and video processing. Then back to the Cliff clinic, Day 2, and take some more photos.
March 19, 2019
Caught Carlotta in PW mood today and fortunately had the camera turned on:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMcYlNDGCm0
Got some very valuable coaching from Julie about it:
Carlotta seems to be using her back more
Ok so where you are cueing her with your hand - you are not using your upper body just before the 3 min mark - chest and shoulders up at this time
so now I think we need to hold the crunch a little more when you ask - practice on the ground first and remember her standing posture
no we all do it but we need to raise our chest when we raise our hands (this way the horse feels it from the seat as well - can you raise your vertebrae we need to use the pointer - when she crunches AS she crunches move the pointer to in front of her head - here look at this - so no more clicking if she is using her neck
At 9.09 CLICK CLICK CLICK that is her autonomy and wonderful - she wanted a game!!!!!! and under saddle to boot!!!!! see how she then tried to go straight into a PW
but yep I see maybe you cued her at the same time as she wanted to PW hahahahaha - and she let the PW slide
and again at 9.27!!!! that was a late click LOL - go with this - trust her I would break this ride up allot and go into the labyrinth love the PW at 10.20 ish but see how she is dragging her back legs? this is a capacity issue it was a better one at the end for the back legs
March 22, 2019
Was a last minute decision to participate at Arne's clinic. But a good one - it was such a wonderful learning experience, as always.
Chris and I shared a rider spot, one in the morning and one in the afternoon. It was becoming pretty hot by the time of our second ride, and I had my usual heat-related difficulties, but managed to stay until the end of the session.
Chris rode Rev in a sidepull in the morning, and he behaved very well and shone with the exercises. Carlotta was very well behaved during the whole clinic and did her best to solve all the puzzles Arne gave us.
We worked on combining laterals (shoulder-in and renvers) on a straight line in the middle of the arena in preparation of flying lead changes. This was quite a challenge for us, but started to work out well. But, just as I wanted to try it in canter, some cows walked into next-door paddock. Carlotta spotted them (arena is open) and froze. From then on, her birdie was gone, and no chance to get it back. She did cooperate a bit, each time she was looking into the other direction, but that was only momentary and she was still tense. Anyway, was the end of the session, so never mind.
The theory part after lunch was very inspiring again. The influence of the rider's seat and cues on the balance and way of moving of the horse. We had heard most of it before, but it was good to be reminded of how much impact very small things have.
In the afternoon, Katherine wanted to work on preparation of piaffe, and Arne gave her and her horse great help via lateral work. I have taken lots of video of this, as it will come in handy for Chris and me once we will be at this level! :-)
Chris tried a few little piaffes, and Rev put in a good effort. When I did a brief try, Arne said drily "that was very lateral" and the audience burst into laughter. Including myself, as I knew very well what it looks like when my gaited lady tries this ;-)
Arne then asked us to walk together in patterns of shoulder-in, then circle, then travers, then half-pass. I was so focussed on trying this that I didn't wait for Chris (who had waited for me) and was too far ahead. Sorry, Chris!
During the afternoon session, Carlotta wanted to do a bit of Intrinzen when Arne was busy with Chris, so I let her, and she started offering a series of very nice crunches and once walked off in PW. Looks like she is becoming able to generalize this now and do it in unknown locations. Bingo!
http://www.lemis.com/grog/photos/Photos.php?size=2&dirdate=20190322
http://www.lemis.com/yvonne/photos/Photos.php?size=2&dirdate=20190322
March 24, 2019
Carlotta had yesterday off, but this morning we put into application Arne's homework tasks. I really tried to lift my base, and Carlotta responded beautifully.
After some 10 minutes of work, I "handed the (mental) reins over to her". She was in play mode and offered me several joyfull skips, then PWs, some of them quite spectacular. And we managed to improve the crunches considerably, in height as well as in duration and quality. Nice quantum leap forward. Thank you, Princess!
Julie's comments:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bqnpfi2pj18d953/Video%2018-03-2019%2015.26.10.mov?dl=0
not sure if the first one got through so here it is again https://www.dropbox.com/s/xeeg5ppkswdc2fl/Video%2018-03-2019%2015.24.48.mov?dl=0
although I would normally ask for the pole to be higher it worked well where she had it - the idea is (for the most part she did it) to click at the crunch
yes as I said I would not be holding it under the nose but a little in front - but it is working this way for Bersi -yep shape the lift a little more but now and again delay the click - a few small one delayed, small again
it takes time and often it is because we actually do not wait long enough to see if we can get more crunch - can you crunch a little more ??? so our horse takes the 'easy' way out as this is the one we click for all the time
yes just ask again (your mind will be saying - ok that was good now try to get this a bit bigger)
OK so your friend is using a form of a keep going signal - yes - but we need to build duration in normal clicker ways to help our horse understand this - I use yes yes yes YES (click) or sometimes x x x x xX(and X loud is the click)
in the first one, she is really crunching but you are not seeing the crunch - place your had lightly on the wither as at the time she really lifts up ( really well) - you ask for her to focus on your target. Can you see at 1.55 you clicked before the crunches (the two before this) - she gets herself ready at 1.55 and then you click - so maybe if you feel her lift it may help time the click. So crunch look click. at the 2.50 ish mark she is processing - wait till she cues you
In the second one - cruch look click (hahahaha asking for her to look at the target is not going to work - so think of it this way - can you take your neck out of the crunch - OK so crunch - now neck now click (it does work) - yep so same as the first take the figuring out 'out' of this by placing your hand behind her wither and feeling for the lift - as she lifts can you ask her to look a little more forward - and click before she looses all the crunch. so try it this way and see how you go - she is doing good crunches (better in the first than the second) just a little tweaking - crunch head click - it was a pretty good one at 2. 00 though - 2.21 when you delayed this was really good - you did crunch more look click!!!!!!!! Processing then again at 2.44 - let her process and wait for her to cue you - she will....thats why she walked away (as the end of the first) LOL.....breathe and look at the scenery
no you did not miss the crunches you just clicked too early - yes for sure there were some good ones there
see she heard the click but kept going - this tells me that there may be some inconsistency about clicking and treating
yeah I think she is trying to process and when she does and she is not given the time she kind of zones out a little - try and work on when she looks like she was in these two videos you take a step back and wait for her - just need to be consistent with this and she will be fine
March 26, 2019
Still pretty windy this morning, and cold, so Carlotta was in active mood. She put in a few spooks in place and was generally pretty animated. Got some nice work on the combined laterals Arne had suggested. Then she took over and went straight into crunch and PW. Lots and lots of them. Funnily enogh, after each spook, she started doing PW!
And lots of skips, several even in gait! Quite elevated too. Looks like she is becoming really playful and creative. Once she started trotting (or gaiting?) in PW for several steps.
Julie:
yes :-) she is using her ventral vagal circuit to triate through her nervous system - this is EXACTLY what we want to happen and how I am now using these things we learnt in intrinzen -you should post this to Sarah Schlote in the human horse bond page
I am convinced that the crunches and the PW do not work because of what the project says but rather what Sarah says - hey Steinar had his choice to get in on this but his loss - LOl - I am speaking to him tomorrow so who knows what will happen in the future
March 27:
Much more of it this morning. Each time Carlotta wants to do something else than what I suggest, she first tries to touch my stirrup and then immediately does PW. To a point where this morning I finally said: sorry, girl, we are doing one or two more of my things, and then you can have your way again.
What was really cool, was that instead of spooking, she did a crunch today. She really loves doing skips. I hope that this will not turn into a monster, i.e. getting so elevated that I will have problems sitting them...
Julie:
Interesting can you try and video this next time i think i need to see it and then we can see if it is something we can tweak
The skips put on cue at the time she does them click and treat. ...a verbal cue then it will only be done on cue
no need for PW today from her end then?
Me:
She did really well, and it was very visible how she gradually understood and processed everything. Some really nice crunches and PW to start with, but then she became so enthused with the skip that i felt a bit like the sorcerer's apprentice: The spirits that I called...
And then I realised that the recording hadn't worked, grrrr. All because I didn't want to waste your time, so pressed the button from her back. From that angle I can't check whether the little red light is on.
Julie: hahahahaha it is sounding really good - as long as you keep the 'hop' said as she skips for a while and click and treat and then start not saying 'hop' when she skips and do not click then follow with the word 'hop' and when she skips click and treat
March 28, 2019
So, put gear back on Carlotta, turned camera on again and asked her to perform again for me. She was willing, the good girl. By that time, the skip had become a lot more pronounced and frequent. In fact all she wanted to do was that!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy0qPCdhxSE&feature=youtu.be
At around 3:58 she offered a levade, but I declined, as I don't like her to do it. She has a tendency to go up very high very soon. NOT good in my book!
But she is already experimenting with using skips while moving, and even a little bit in corto, unless it was a half-hearted canter, hehehe. She seems to go in quantum leaps at the moment.
Julie:
OK so she is moving allot more forward so wonderful - think about when you are on the ground practicing your skips that you are ready and move forward - so it becomes a skip into a canter not a 'jump up'
when she starts to get a bit 'above the bit' this would be when I would ask for a crunch as she is walking
yes these skips she needs to be more forward - she is loosing her crunch when she does it - so allot of practice on the ground here will help - yes I know she is enthusiastic but this will come as she starts in the crunch - skip (hop) you move forward at the same time
She is offering all sorts of things, now that her autonomy is growing, so I feel it's normal that some unwanted stuff happens. And she wasn't offended, when I gently said I didn't like it.
yes that is true, she is allot more active - you have to be happy with this
definitely am, as long as it stays in my comfort zone, which it does for now. Not sure how well I could sit big Power Canters though....
It looks like a new transition period right now, and it's good that she experiments so happily.
yes thats for sure. you will be fine and she will as well - remember the ground is the better place to finesse now
March 29, 2019
OK, have been eager again. Took Carlotta into the arena for 10 min of groundwork. We played with crunches, then movement. I ran at her side and when she was cantering, said "hop", and she did! She was very happy to move, and at one stage, took off bucking and fartig :D
But always happy to come back and do some more. Head is still high, but I hope it will eventually happen....
Julie: crunch hop :-D let her take the time when she goes off and she will come back :D
March 30, 2019
Interesting again this morning. I was hardly in the saddle when Carlotta already walked off in PW. So I said, no thanks, let's do something else first. Which she accepted. After 10 minutes, I stopped and let her decide. She stood and did crunch after crunch. Very nice onces, some a bit extended in time. Big praise. Then she decided to practice her skips.
Some of them were considerably higher (as it felt and looked) than yesterday's. She kinda proudly lifted her front end in an elegant Andalusian way. And several times from that lift, she took 1 or 2 strides of canter! She is so good at figuring things out!
I wasn't sure where this would lead to, so ended up saying "gently", and she went into normal PWs instead. When she crunched, three or four times, I said "hop" while she was in it, but she didn't associate the cue with the crunch (yet).
Forgot: at the beginning of the session, she did a nice, elevated canter. And the skips+ steps of canter felt like those Panther Canters that are shown in some of Steinar's videos.
Julie: thats great - I think her PW is also becoming a good proud movement so thats great!
March 31, 2019
Coudln't ride yesterday, too many showers, but today I was determined! ;-) Poor Carlotta shivered a bit when I took her rug off, but was happy to work for me. We ran through our homework (another Cliff lesson tomorrow) for 10 minutes, then she wanted to play. She is like a Ferrari: from 0 to 100 in 2 secs :-D Which means, she switches between "work" and "play" very quickly and happily. A few crunches, then off into PW. Then she suddenly went into a series of very elevated canter skips. Eeek! I ended up saying: Nonono! and she stopped. It worries me, as I know how quickly this can escalate with her.
So we carried on with some "normal" PW, looks like she understand that she shouldn't go overboard too much. I hope at least ;-)
She was also happy to do a bit of normal corto and canter in between. During a few of them, I said "hop", and, after a sec of hesitation, she did!
Now, I will have to work out how I can keep her within a comfortable way of doing that elevated canter.....
In the worst case, we can always reserve it to liberty work on the ground.
April 1, 2019
While waiting for Chris who was running late, Carlotta and I played a bit in the arena. She was happy to canter and skip and hop around happily. Also did lovely crunches. She still isn't tucking her chin in, but her back definitely goes up and sometimes she brings her weight back when she crunches.
During the lesson with Cliff (he said "let's work on canter", so we did), she was quite engaged and eager to perform, so still struggling a bit at times. But most of the time, she used her new high-and-wide canter. I had to adapt to it and Cliff gave me some good hints about the use of my hands and legs and weight. So it must have looked quite nice in consequence. Didn't bring the camera unfortunately.
I said to Chris that the canter felt really elevated in front, but she said, yeah, certainly for Carlotta (as it was always pretty flat and smooth before), but looked indeed like a "normal" Andalusian canter. But after all, that one is high and "jumped". I have enough opportunities to see Andys at work...
Anyway, very happy with my girl. Cliff noted how much more she uses her back and engages her hind end now. And those muscles on her bum are very impressive.
Oh forgot: during the groundwork session, she decided she wanted to practice levades as well. I was happy to let her experiment. Very funny how she tried various movement, like shifting her weight back, then lowering her croup, then lifting her front end in slow motion. She got lots of clicks and treats, of course. At one stage, when I didn't click her for a nice skip, she stopped and looked at me sternly! Had to laugh.
Julie:
sounds great for sure - I forgot to film the crunch with the neck out yesterday but will do it for you. If you have a clicker then you will click as it is habit - I only use X when I am not holding a clicker. it is good that the movement work is helping her posture and her canter
It has made a huge difference!
yes but importantly for me she is having some autonomy and having a ball I noticed this morning that, at times, she was kinda coming a bit towards me sideways, as if she was insecure and was seeking a bit of help through contact.
Lots of autonomy and enjoying it SOOOO much. And so do I.
let her do what she wants to do when she goes sideways it is more akin to her finding a threshold for herself to get herself more collected in the moment - something you may not have noticed may have worried her
We are really warming up to ground"work"!
yes you will even more - groundwork is really good as it takes out the 'worry' of the larger movements for us
Possible. It didn't feel threatening or whatever
and also the larger movements without having to worry about if our horse has the capacity to carry us during them
Good point!
no a sideways movement is not threatening - it is a slow motion movement from the horse who wants to take a little more time to work out their 'safe spot'
It is such a wonderful thing that they can decide themselves whether they are ready or not.
yes thats very true
That sounds very right, Julie. It felt that way when she did it. Like reaching out for me. Difficult to describe.
April 2, 2019
After the ride, it was playtime. Carlotta experimented with new movements, some cute badass, running and kicking joyfully, and towards the end, came up with some quite creative levades
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaBdO4rOCII
For those who aren't tired yet of my constant talking about Carlotta's progress as a high class riding horse, here is another little video from today.
Still trying to put the skip on cue and ignore the unwanted ones. Will take a while, as she is so fond of it ;-)
We are trying to put into practice Cliff's yesterday's exercise (a really cheeky one indeed!): ride around something, in this case my orange pylon, with head facing the pylon and hindquarters moving around it in a bigger circle, BUT with the horse being NOT bent! Sounds like nothing, but just try this!!!
Carlotta managed one or two short correct moments of it, which is at least a beginning.
Yesterday, when I fumbled with this at Cliff's place, she got really grumpy about it. No wonder, I must have been pretty clumsy in my asking. Sorry, Carlotta! But today, it felt a lot more promising already :-)
She was also beginning to combine the skips with striking off into canter and tried for several strides in a row. Was her own input. Good girl!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8530FPSWxY&t=603s
Video from Julie about crunches:
Exchange with Julie (easy to tell us apart, as Julie writes everytghithing in lower case letters):
This morning during the ride, Carlotta only 2 or 3 times briefly did little skips, which I ignored and then she didn't offer them anymore. But very keen on immediately throwing in PW when I asked for something she didn't wanna do. I allowed her to do it a few times, then asked to please do a bit what I wanted.
When we practised Cliff's difficult exercise, immediately afterwards she used PW to let off inner steam.
Have watched your video about crunches. My problem is that she does not (resp. cannot?) arch her neck, but instead uses her neck most of the time with chin out. I can get very small beginnings of it, when I click very early when she barely starts to lift a fraction, but haven't seen much progress for quite some time. I wish you were closer so you could work a bit with her. I am sure that I am the one who does something wrong, but can't get improvement.
She does lift her withers and back from time to time, but nothing as beautiful as Sharney does sigh Will try again this afternoon. And all the other days to come.... Will rewatch your video several times, so I don't miss the details. Have started to use exexex while she is doing PW.
Julie:
oh thats more like it PW when she needs to self regulate :-) - it is still the same with the neck - just manipulate the actual scope - to being further towards the ground (like Catrine did with Bersi)
the idea is that she knows this well enough now not to get a click for 'less' so ask again but be sure to click the second time so she is not offended
thats good if she is beginning to understand a keep going signal - anything that is easy for you will work - xxxx is just something I used to use with SATS so it stuck
syn alia training systems - just a different way to look at fear issues (some parts good some parts too off with the fairies for me) - the second time ask for less so we set her up for success - just for a little while for you and her to get into the habit of not feeling the need to click or expecting a click
But it makes a lot of sense to see how you do it in your video, i.e. for example rest the pointer on her withers or just behind. Will do this a lot more often now, and see how we go.
yes they need to know what it is for - so even just stand use your pointer and when she moves her head towards it click and treat - do this a couple of times and then say can you crunch and do this?
plenty of time for everything! just play around with it in different positions - we dont want her to touch it just 'follow' it
April 4, 2019
My exchange with Julie:
This morning during the ride, Carlotta only 2 or 3 times briefly did little skips, which I ignored and then she didn't offer them anymore. But very keen on immediately throwing in PW when I asked for something she didn't wanna do. I allowed her to do it a few times, then asked to please do a bit what I wanted.
When we practised Cliff's difficult exercise, immediately afterwards she used PW to let off inner steam.
Have watched your video about crunches. My problem is that she does not (resp. cannot?) arch her neck, but instead uses her neck most of the time with chin out. I can get very small beginnings of it, when I click very early when she barely starts to lift a fraction, but haven't seen much progress for quite some time. I wish you were closer so you could work a bit with her. I am sure that I am the one who does something wrong, but can't get improvement.
She does lift her withers and back from time to time, but nothing as beautiful as Sharney does sigh Will try again this afternoon. And all the other days to come.... Will rewatch your video several times, so I don't miss the details. Have started to use exexex while she is doing PW.
oh thats more like it PW when she needs to self regulate - it is still the same with the neck - just manipulate the actual scope - to being further towards the ground (like Catrine did with Bersi)
Think she is beginning to understand.
the idea is that she knows this well enough now not to get a click for 'less' so ask again but be sure to click the second time so she is not offended
Ah, I see.
thats good if she is beginning to understand a keep going signal - anything that is easy for you will work - xxxx is just something I used to use with SATS so it stuck
Even if the second time still isn't good then?
Yes, seems easy to apply. I said it a bit too strongly, I suppose. Will be softer from now on. And she did put in a bit more effort indeed
What is SATS?
For crunches: when I used the pointer from the beginning, she was confused, and when I added it once she began to crunch, it didn't have much effect.
syn alia training systems - just a different way to look at fear issues (some parts good some parts too off with the fairies for me) - the second time ask for less so we set her up for success - just for a little while for you and her to get into the habit of not feeling the need to click or expecting a click
But it makes a lot of sense to see how you do it in your video, i.e. for example rest the pointer on her withers or just behind. Will do this a lot more often now, and see how we go. Goody. Will do!
yes they need to know what it is for - so even just stand use your pointer and when she moves her head towards it click and treat - do this a couple of times and then say can you crunch and do this?
Now you made we want to run out and try again, hahaha.
NO NO NO - relax...chill .....wait hahahahaha
Breathing out.... I am.... relaaaxed!
hahaha! plenty of time for everything! just play around with it in different positions - we dont want her to touch it just 'follow' it
April 5, 2019
All good this morning. Carlotta didn't skip anymore, but did nice PWs, while I said exexex. She really puts in the effort and wants to please me.
We worked a bit on the dreaded staying straight when walking around with hind legs around the pylon. She managed a few brief ones, so got big praise, and we stopped.
Very windy today, and the gardener was doing noisy stuff nearby. I didn't have time to try things on the ground. She had offered me a few crunches, but I clicked very quickly when her neck wasn't engaged yet.
Will watch your video again and try crunches tomorrow on the ground. Or the beginning of them and following the pointer.
Had to abandon the idea of riding on Saturday, as neighbour's horses and ponies were in the paddock just across the road. All lined up at the fence and dancing and prancing while I was in Carlotta's saddle. She was so "elevated" and tense that I dismounted after 5 minutes and did some groundwork instead.
Tried to do the crunches the way you show in your video. She got the idea after 2 or 3 repetitions, that I wanted crunch then turning head towards pointer. And offered it by herself in the following. Has done each time since!
Also did some nice playing with PW and skips. And today with putting the levades on cue. When I lift the pointer and my other hand with index finger raised and say "levade", she goes straight up right in front of me and tries to walk on her hind legs.
And Valeta, my 2 y.o. filly was so funny yesterday: when I took Carlotta back to the paddock, Valeta made it clear that she had watched us closely when doing crunches... and suddenly started to lift her neck! I am sure that she will be a lot of fun to work with, once she will be old enough
Riding is going well. She still hates the exercise with nose pointed to pylon and moving hind end around, while staying straight, but is starting to be able to do it briefly now.
Today, when during PW, I said "Hop", she went into a series of skips - it actually felt like an elevated canter in slow motion. Big praise and end of session.
yea for Greg! The painting looks great - sounds like you have had some great times with Carlotta and Valeta is already learning! use those times when she feels tense to think about how you can guide her to calm her nervous system - sounds more like social engagement so take advantage of this and see if you can get her to bond with you when she is 'excited'
Yes, we did that after I dismounted. I had left the saddle on, just taken the headstall off, and we played at liberty. Each time she started to stare at the other horses, I walked away, but she almost immediately followed me, so we could continue. And she often uses crunch and PW now for calming herself down. Just this particular situation didn't feel safe to stay in the saddle. I really don't need another fall, so did the safe thing instead.
oh yes I would also want you to get off her - so now we dont want to walk away - let her digest what she is seeing and when she looks like she is 'done' cue a PW - hahahaha about Greg!
so we are giving her time to focus on her own nervous system and you are there for support
OK, so I just stand at her side and wait?
yep
It did feel like she wanted to connect with me and was looking towards my support. Very subtle and mostly a feeling, but that's what it seemed to be.
it is also a great opportunity to see how she regulates her nervous system
yes thats what it would feel like - so we just need to give her time to see if she needs help or can do it - then cue the PW - if you feel she is stuck or she has seemingly settled herself a little It's on my to-do list
this is the kind of stuff that Sarah teaches
I am getting the hang of handling all this, I have the impression.
April 9, 2019
10 mm of rain last night. Much needed...
Having lots of great moments during our daily riding session. Carlotta comes up with something creative almost every time. I had gone back to doing some groundwork, upon Julie's suggestion, when her movements under saddle started to become pretty elevated and I wasn't sure where this would end ;-)
So, now we have a lot of movement - she copies me when I start "trotting" or "cantering" and add skips when I say "hop". Yesterday this developped into a whole series of skips which looked like a very elevated slow motion canter. Lovely!
And today she offered it to me under saddle. I said "hop", and off she went into a succession of beautiful, almost collected and partly very lifted canter strides. She got jackpot and end of session for it.
I also started to put the levade on cue (just couldn't resist). She loves this exercise - goes straight up, holds her position, then tries to walk forward a few steps. There must be a tiny stallion hidden in her mind to make her so fond of this type of work....
And Valeta, my little 2 y.o., has shown that she is a copycat: she had watched me closely when I occasionally asked Carlotta for a crunch in the paddock. And suddenly she started to arch her neck and slightly lift her withers!!! With SUCH a look in my direction!
At feeding time, Leo (borzoi) can do the most beautiful terre-a-terres! Maybe I should put this on cue?
Exchange with Julie:
Fun this morning again. Carlotta has transferred her new skill of repeated skips-slow motion-canter under saddle. She surprised me a bit with the first series, but then I went along happily. She didn't feel like backing yet again and tried other stuff, but this time, I insisted and finally she agreed
Haha, if she offers a new creation each day, we will end up with capriole under the rider... with this rider on the ground. ROFL
Just joking, she behaves really well and only very rarely still offers something I didn't ask for (other than PW, which she just loves too much)
yeah!!!!
Exactly! Isn't she a Star?!
for sure. it sounds like you are very happy with how you both are doing
Over the moon indeed. I would never have thought this possible!
and I am sure there is more to come
April 11, 2019
Got some lovely slow-motion, high spanish canters this morning from The Princess. She is so keen to show off what she can do! When we did a bit of groundwork after the ride, she did some skips and canters and 2 levades on cue, then had enough and wanted to go and have brekkie. Which she got, with los of praise.
have fun glad it is going well
April 12, 2019
Made a painting for Cliff, called "The Horseman", showing him on his PRE Paco. Giving it to him, to thank him for all the wonderful help he provided to Carlotta and me in our journey towards great riding.
http://www.lemis.com/grog/photos/Photos.php?dirdate=20190417&size=2&imagesizes=23#Photo-1
April 15, 2019
Our clinic with Anke Hawke was wonderful. Another big step in the right direction (softness and lightness). We have decided to bring Anke over every 3 or 4 months. All the participants were hooked and enthusiastic to continue on this path, even the "bush riders" and such who would have never dreamt to do dressage
It has been a fantastic experience in body awareness and lightness, and how I suddenly was able to actually recognise when she was shifting her weight to the "wrong" side and thus brought me out of balance slightly.
And Anke told me how to remedy to a lot of thing and influence them. Such an eye opener. She said that it was such a pleasure to be now able to work on finesse!
Ok so thats good so what I was seeing with the hind issue was a shifting of weight the wrong way?
I think it was. When you have time, look at the groundwork videos I took. Anke was able to straighten her out very quickly. And the most amazing thing: when I rode Carlotta this morning, just after getting on, I was about to shift my weight to straighten her out, but: she was already straight!!!!
Another interesting thing: we were very busy with the things Anke taught us, but in between, I gave Carlotta a break and let her stand still. Anke stood just in front when suddenyly Carlotta lifted into a few crunches. Anke jumped a bit back and started to say: No!, but I laughed and explained to her what it was.
And during the walk phases, Carlotta didn't really offer PW, but I could feel how she organised her body into a much more elevated frame, which felt like a mini PW. Pity I forgot to turn the video on the first morning, as she did some really lovely canters. Stupid me! We did a second session in the evening, but it wasn't as good. Never mind...
Anke has a lot of respect for Carlotta's mind of her own. Seems that her own mare, Georgie Girl, is very similar and also can put up some quite impressive stunts, when she feels like it, hahaha. They must be soul sisters.
April 16, 2019
Another Anke Hawke clinic.
The clinic hosting was particularly challengeing this time, as we had several dropouts close to the date, the most spectacular one just the day before the clinic, due to an accident. Thank you to my friends who helped out with asking around to fill the vacant spots. They went to a couple of "newbies" who hadn't thought of riding in this type of clinic, but became completely hooked.
Everybody was very keen and enthusiastic and soaked up Anke's many information. She is incredible: spent the whole two days, tirelessly talking her students literally through each step. And always with a smile and so attentive to and aware of the tiniest detail and able to always offer a solution and a way of adressing the problem and getting good results.
I had the first spot in the morning, and we had decided to do my lessons at home at my place (convenient as Anke stayed with us). Meant to get up early, so Anke could have a little brekkie, then meet me outside, where I had saddled Carlotta in the meantime. By 7:45 we got started, so we would be over at Narrawin in time for the 9 a.m. lesson.
Anke did a little bit of groundwork with Lolle, to straighten her out (she can be pretty crooked at times), then I hopped on, and we worked most of the time at the walk, especially on straightness in her and more body awareness and softness in me.
Anke noted that we both had made big progess since she saw us last November (a big thank you goes to Cliff for his great teaching, which made this happen!), and that it was great that now we could work on finesse as a result!
And we did. We went along, step by step, and Anke commented. Sit a bit to the inside, soften your inside rein, sit to oustside, open your outside hip, lift your inside rein, lower your outside rein, sit to inside, lift your ear, look at her outside ear, open inside leg, open it more, soften... use less rein in shoulder-in... And after a while, I became very aware of what was going on and started to correct things myself. Which Anke spotted immediately of course. Wowsers, felt amazing!
I wanted to do a bit of canter work as well, so Anke guided us through some moves which allowed Carlotta to balance herself better for going into canter. And her canter was quite nice and elevated (jumped) in front. We practised canter-stop-canter-stop after only a few steps of it. I could feel how happy and balanced Carlotta was with this. Anke also gave me some pointer for preparing relaxed flying changes. Will have to work on this now.
After we were finished, I noticed that I had placed my camera on one of the fence posts, but had forgotten to turn it on. Grrrr.
Anke hopped on and commented "one of those days, you will notice that I have taken your saddle with me". Hahaha. I offered her my second saddle of the same type which I want to sell, but she liked it less than my oldie. ;-) Anyway, she worked a bit more on everything we had started during the lesson. Then we jumped into the car, as we had got carried away, and we just made it to Chris' place, where Jane and her mare were already saddled up and ready. I went back home to get my chores done, then joined them again a bit later.
All the riders were very attentive to her instructions and had nice results with their horses. Would lead too far to talk about them all here. Will add some photos below. There are some 80 or 90 videos on my youtube channel as well, for those who want to check.
And after the clinic in the evening, Anke still wasn't worn out, so we fit in another little ride, this time with the camera turned on, and Carlotta gracefully agreed to cooperate and go through the morning tasks again. Anke then hopped on Carlotta and had a little ride. She noted how much softer she has become, and much more of a pleasure to ride. Still an opinionated Princess, but such fun to be in her saddle. From Anke's stories about her lovely mare Georgie Girl, these two dames seem to have a lot in common, haha.
April 17, 2019
I had a ,look at some of them - she really is just using classical in hand work and if Carlotta goes well with this then that is great and informs you that her issues are capacity (as I thought) and she has /had some emotional parking brakes. It just depends on your view of the training scale - in Intrinzen capacity is last whereas in classical work capacity is first. Sharney goes well with in hand classical work but Star does not - why? I feel because Sharney is similar to Carlotta and Star is a HUGE functional movement nightmare - this is why he goes better with intrinzen
Very interesting, Julie. Yes, Carlotta has taken a lot out of it, so I am happy to use it here nd there.
April 18, 2019
Did get our daily ride in at 5 pm. Carlotta was great. We started with a little bit of Intrinzen groundwork. I had set the mat in the arena (folded), and we walked towards it. Carlotta sniffed it right away, and I gave her a few treats which she ate from it. Then she decided to touch it with one foot, and I called it a day on this. Left the mat lying there for the riding session.
She still hates Cliff's exercise to walk around the pole with her hind legs making the bigger circle. OKish to the left, but to the right... she tried to persuade me that she could do PWs instead. After a while I let her, and she did some real beauties. Then I said "hop", and she did a whole series of lovely skips - slow-motion canter. We stopped on that.
Oh, and during the groundwork, I asked for a few crunches as well, and for the first time ever, she did some nice little ones with her neck arched and her chin tucked in! Small, but definitely crunches. Hurray!
I have a question for you: must have mentioned that she offered me some pretty high levades with remaining on her hind legs for 2 or 3 seconds, then taking small steps forward while still in the air. I am a bit concerned that she might do this under saddle, like she has done before, and this scares me. Definitely don't want it. Not sure whether I can get it sufficiently under stimulus control. So maybe I shouldn't encourage it for now? At least until she is much more advanced and balanced?
It looks fabulous, but safety first, says my gut.
BTW, you did a great job with the video editing for Sarah!
good call with the mat - OK so look at the PW as her trying to get some courage and feel good - I would go with it and dump that exercise - so pleased for you with the crunches. The levades you put on cue on the ground and make it a verbal cue and if she offers it under saddle breathe cue and stop get off and click and treat...AGHHH I hate the theory one but more like me for the video with Star - thanks
April 19, 2019
Good morning Julie, just a shortie before grabbing Carlotta. Yes, PW seems to work for her this way now. I just exexex it a bit and reward if/when it becomes more spectacular. Sometimes, I just let her do it and do nothing myself, apart from saying "yes" or "good".
Can't really dump that exercise, as Cliff will wanna see it next lesson, so I work on it very briefly, like once to each side. Once he will have come up with something new, I certainly will dump it
For the levades, I started putting it on cue with verbal cue already ("Levaaaade" + raising my hand vertically), it isn't solid yet and she seems less keen about it now. Yesterday, when I cued her for it, she kinda came towards me more before shifting her weight back. Didn't feel right, so I left it there. If she went up so high under saddle again, not sure whether I would be able to breathe, haha. You mean cue her for it whilhe she does it? Wouldn't she think then that this is what I want?! Especially if I dismount afterwards. This is my jackpot for doing something great. Sorry, a bit confused here.
lets renegoiate the exercise for cliff - ask - do a little and immediately do a PW - see how that goes. Yes if a horse does something we dont like we cue it as they do it and always cue it as they do it and then they learn the only time they do it is when we cue for it
It's just so scary to for me when she rears up so high. Wasn't that way when I was younger, but it is now.
at least now she is listening to me with video 1 - just work on the cue on the ground so that is really tight first - yes I know it can be scary but if it happens remember on the ground to put the forward movement in - RUN forward like hell just as she lifts
Yup, that is basically what I did for the Cliff exercise: 3 or 4 steps into one direction, then allow her to PW right out of it. She always tries to flee into PW when she feels that I am looking at the pylon and am about to line her up to it.
Ahaa! As I am facing her, will have to turn around and run then. Didn't think of that approach. It seemed like a lovely dance when she went up close to me and then tried to walk a few small steps forward.
Gosh, what a broad pallet of things are coming out of all this.
Again for the levades: in my feeling, if I start running away immediately, I suppose she won't feel encouraged to hold it, like it should be done for a real levade?
first we want the correct elevation and then when we have that we can finesse
April 23, 2019
Have started to play a bit with 2 1/2 y.o. Valeta. She has a very inquisitive mind and is as brave as a lion, a completely different personality from Carlotta :-D
She willingly followed me away from the other horses and into the arena, where I had placed the gymnastic mat.
Didn't take Valeta long to explore it and soon step on it, stand on it, walk over it. Eager little beaver!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-Kdqqn-D54
Today, my great osteo Caroline was here to give Carlotta a treatment.
She felt very stiff and uncomfortable when I rode her last time, so it was definitely time to have her checked.
Caroline found soreness and tension in her shoulders, back and left hamstring on hind leg. She gave Carlotta an intensive, though soft massage (Carlotta hates stronger ones, as the past had shown), then one of the sacro-cranial treatments Carlotta loves so much.
We will keep up with more frequents treatments now, to keep her happy and in optimal shape.
http://www.lemis.com/yvonne/photos/Photos.php?size=2&dirdate=20190423
Decided to give her a couple of weeks off riding, so she can heal in peace.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmWSj3_XSIk
https://www.youtube.com/user/ylehey/videos?disable_polymer=1
April 25, 2019
How do you "unglue" a very sticky pony from your side? ;-)
I had planned to give Valeta a number of interesting toys to explore, but all she wanted was to stay and play with me...
Ah well, never mind, let's play a bit together then (second video).
She will always amaze me with her unflappability and brave heart. Note that big box being whirled around by the wind, and she only spooked very briefly and mildly, then immediately came back to me. And her being ready to see whether she can pick up the mat with her teeth... :-D
Or push the ball around... or just walk over the ground poles, and then figure out how to step into the tyre.
Or, at the end, when she suddenly decided she could go up with both front feet on the pedestal! And you can see the wheels spinning in her head, deciding whether she should step up as well with her hind feet. Which I decided was too early, so directed her back down.
All this from a not even 3 y.o. without any previous training of any sort, apart from the very basics. But she was incredibly cool bananas as a three months old filly already.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDBZ9ev4GKU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdI-YW4ASvU&t=49s
May 3, 2019
Was very hard not to ride, but I held out! Had her for a short lesson at Cliff's (about 10 to 15 minutes), very calm and low-key, just a couple of short canters. Decided I will ride her very briefly every other day for a while and do groundwork (very brief too) on the days off.
A looong exchange with Julie:
Ok sounds good and good that the head wrap by itself did not cause any worry for her - I think that doing too much (remedial wise) is far too much proprioception etc for a horse to handle. If her wither and shoulders were sore then that may be the reason she does not want to PW at the moment yes, my feeling too. She was happy to walk with me and just throw in those little skips here and there. With that look from the corner of her eye
I am doing a bit of CT with Valeta each time I go out there (feeding). She stands VERY politely with her head turned a bit away
great on both counts - sounds like it will occupy you enough for a couple of days LOL
Also teaching Aliyana to have her feet handled at liberty. Chris visited the other day and was quite please to see how much more confident and friendly Aliyana has become. Funny how a few seconds per day make such a difference.
yes good - and yes I agree with you a few seconds a day make a huge difference, but we can go the other way too - too long and things become punishing.
Will bring Valeta in again soon. I have kept a biiig carton (from our new vacuum cleaner), should be perfect for her to investigate and play with.
Kool so remember SEEKING - let her work it out That's true. Working on myself very hard to keep things short
Yep, it's a good opportunity for her, after I messed it up with the mat, hahaha.
oh I got the first lot of videos from one of the people who I said I would help with worming (clicker training way) - it was nearly 40 mins long FOR THE FIRST time AND she has decided she wont be using the clicker training way - that was the basis that I was going to help her for the videos...gee some have a hide
it will be good for you to see the difference when they are in SEEKING mode
I know a couple of people like this. Have wasted waaaay too much time on them! Fortunately there are others who are worth helping.
If it doesn't rain (threatening to right now), I will put up the camera. yes but I now have to help her as it was really bad and very controlling - I know her very well so I will do it for her but it wont be used in my DVD's LOL
looking forward to video
I might sit on the pedestal and just do nothing. I bet Valeta will come to me, but I hope she will eventually turn away and investigate her new toys
for sure
Now... that didn't go as planned - Valeta refused to go into seeking mode (apart from verfy briefly once or twice), but preferred staying glued to me
hahahaha she wanted you to engage with her with click and treat - you were more inviting - take it as a compliment
see how she did with the ball and you back was to her...engage with this
OK, makes me feel good that you say that. It was sooo hard to ignore her invitations!
no dont ignore her invitations have fun with it - she wants to engage so engage - or else not engaging is punishing for her
And she lets me know that she doesn't like to be ignored!
careful to reward the movement towards - so when she is approaching with her leg click and treat - what happened to your manners games???? do you want some videos? I think you need to use a clicker she is not registering that there is a click (before the treat). hahaha the tyre is the better option for the moment - so she is seeking your treats and this is because she does not understand the relationship - so you need to click
see how she is pawing at the tyre reward this
A bit more work with the mat this morning. Gradually getting better. Yeah, I know... I occasionally did tug on that rope, but note how she always quickly brought her focus back to the mat and was willing to give it anoyther try. So, maybe we are getting somewhere eventually
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgSoAnTtvu0&t=190s
Also wanted to do a bit of Anke's in-hand work, but Carlotta decided very soon that she wanted to do PW and skips instead. So be it. What do you think: do her legs look better by now? Haven't ridden her since, just doing some crunches and PW and such.
She uses her neck for the skips. Too much of it? I find it looks better in the PW now, her frame seems more "collected" to me. What d'ya think?
She has been very happy over the last 2 days to do those movements, so I am hoping that she is on the mend now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i67zQfO3NWA
it is really when she is under load that her legs show she is not ready - she seems fine, I will have to show you how to do the in hand stuff without using pressure and release LOL. What she does with the skips is she lifts her neck and you click and then she tries to move her legs forward - so you need to look at the last couple of seconds of the second video to see what I mean - I would focus on crunch to PW and get the hind legs catching up and then dont click this that she does with the skip but run forward yourself and see if you can capture her hind legs coming up
Before putting her rug on or the night, I briefly did a few crunches with Carlotta and tried to get her to move forward out of the. Nope. As soon as she started to move, the crunch was lost
So..... how long do you think I should not ride her, so she can strengthen her core and improve her capacity sufficiently? I really would like to get this sorted out, so we are not in the same sh*t in a few months again.
the moving forward from the crunch is like a miliscecond - it is before she even takes a full footfall - we click this and then we ask again and wait a little longer - it takes a while. For me personally I would begin with a saddle and no rider and ask for the same PW etc you are doing and then add weights to the saddle (those ankle weights you can get on ebay) and ask again and make sure she can crunch carrying a couple of kilos of weights and PW and then if that is OK get on her
Yes, will do. When she does PW and sometimes gets longer and flatter, I try to lift myself up, and what she then mostly does, is go into skips... But sometimes, it does work and she makes herself prouder and engages from behind. Whew...
I think the cue for skips is just that we need to really hone in on cues for lift and also skip - let me see if I can do this for you tomorrow - for skip and canter depart I say dum dum
For tomorrow too: in the mat video, I found it interesting how Carlotta was offering stretched-out front legs, sortof tendings towards PW, at times before touching the mat with the foot. I wonder whether this has to do with a mind shift? I regualrly take the lead off, so see whether she is willing to approach the mat at liberty, but not ready yet.
mmmm I felt that this was as much as she wanted to do and as you were clicking for it , she knew that she would get a click for it. Her body language with her legs splayed out the back tell me that she is very uncertain of it. I dont think having a lead rope on is helping her though
Ok so this is not as clear as I would have liked it to be. The in hand stuff is only beginning again after a couple of years of not doing it, so I am going to be working on straighter lines now - but what Sharney is showing here was all taught with clicker training and shaping and no cavesson, - so I need to begin now to help her keep straighter lines and I will try and make sure I video these steps - I dont have video of how this all began (I may have but cannot even think where that may be) - but the crunch is built into this as 'lift' and my cues either beside her or in front of her are the signals for her - the crop is there as a hint if it is needed. Speed here is due to lack of balance, which is due to not engaging the core as well - so the idea for a few days for me will firstly to get the core engaged more and more (slowly) - the more engagement of the core, the slower the gait and the less bending - at the same time I want to work on stellning and this will also help the overbending. The bit showing the core then PW then dadump for a canter depart is not clear I know - it is hard to go backwards
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sssiq3xqufbmtap/Sharney%20begining%20in%20hand_processed.mp4?dl=0
I was carrying on with the mat, as I wanted to be able to help her body by walking over it. Have bought two EVA pads today, so can use those instead and give her a mat break.
Thank you for the helpful video. Wish Carlotta would lift and crunch so nicely sigh Love how willingly Sharney goes into travers and half-pass. Beautiful!
yes Sharney is great - Star can do this also and there is no problem with it - but all I am saying is that there is not reason why you need to use pressure to have Carlotta do it. I am not a fan of the EVA pads as the human takes the control but I dont know enough about their benefits as compared to the mat. The crunches are simply work on your part not hers to make sure you don click for the little things. can you do a video where you do not click for the little things and let her go through what she needs to and then ask again?
you have spurred me on to work out just how one would vertically straighten our horse during in hand exercises - got some nice tries today and I could not believe how straight Star was after years of not doing this, especially seen as he has huge parking brakes - so I am really examining again the concept of function verses capacity - he is now also giving me a new asset with the saddle pad - now his PW are always strong he is bunny hopping as well hahahahaha
I cannot figure out now how to actually put Sarahs stuff (the SE stuff) into this equation now that I can rest the pad on his back - he cues me (that was something he was taught way back and I want to keep this as it gives him a sense of control and also tells me if he feels he has titrated down) - he crunches (it is telling me he is masterful) and then saddle pad on, he crunches more and then off to a PW and then to a bunny hop - click and treat and take the pad off - so this is really not SE (and I dont mind) but he seems to be developing the assets he needs to be masterful and kind of saying 'I got this'. he is not as good on his right side and I can see a little worry so I can allow him to titrate down and then he cues and off we go again - maybe all I need at the moment is what I actually began with here - that the movement stuff gives him the confidence to change his mind about the pad.
Carlotta was very engaged yesterday when we played at liberty. She went close to the EVA pads and sniffed them, then walked away. OK, no worries, let's do something else. Worked on crunches from various positions and I also tried to apply your "aaand ba-doum", only I said aaand hop, of course. Clicked very early when she was about to go into the movement and a bit up. She experimented with crunch-turn head-sideways-walk-forward-PW-skips. Got really p*ssed off (at it looked) when I didn't click quickly enough for her liking when she offered crunches she thought were good enough. So instead, she went up into a whole series of levades instead, to earn the treat, visibly!
I am always jealous when I see the lovely crunches your horses do, and Carlotta and I are struggling so much with it....
it will happen but lets just see 1 minute of crunches and you waiting - no more - see the trick often is to only do 5 mins or so and leave it till tomorrow - well if you want to see todays I will load them tomorrow and you can have a giggle at his bunny hop
oh and you need to remember I have been at this for a while and used the clicker from day one - really do you see allot of others do my horses crunches LOL
OK so here is an extract from yesterday (poor star and his itch) so I checked and he has not done any of this in hand work since 2013 so we are beginning slowly - funny how I could only get a PW shoulder in LOL. the side that the pad is on him is his bad side and he needs to go allow slower but it was this side he has begun his little hop
This is lovely, Julie. Love your conversations with Star! His renvers are very impressive. They never seem to forget, once they have learned something.
His little hop looks like Carlotta's in the beginning, so who knows, maybe he will end up doing impressive levades as well?
Will try some liberty laterals today, if Carlotta agress with this plan She started doing some PWs and small hops while walking back to the paddock.
Oh, and I tried to do the suggested one minute without clicking - longest minute of my life. Carlotta became very grumpy very quickly when the were no clicks for such a long time. She became more and more reluctant to even go into the crunch, and when she did, she immediately started to walk off. Only tried this twice, then we played a bit together, and again, she did some very slow, calm levades right beside me. Didn't feel threatening in the least, and I had the clear impression that she paid very close attention to where I was.
no it was not one minute without clicking - I said dont to more than around a minute all up LOL - so wait for a bigger crunch and try and click more effect IN THAT minute hahahahahaha Stars hops are always there normally but it was the first time he was offering them with the pad
Bwahahahaaaa. Poor, poor Carlotta! Now, I am relieved
hahahahaha I am trying to get you to ask for more get more in one or two then stop for the day LOL
Stop all interaction for the day? Or just the crunches? Just double-checking.
I find it extremely difficult to do so little with her. And I have the clear feeling that she wants to do more too. Always gives me soft nickers and expectant looks!
I really miss my riding sessions incredibly. Feel like amputated. And becoming grumpy about it.
I really mean go away - finish for the day and finish on a high note with nothing else being done - stretch it to 5 minutes at the most - but we want to ask - if it is her ordinary crunch do not click but ask again straight away (more more more) and click the next ask again see if you can get something better - if ordinary dont click but ask again straight away - go for a PW click this if it is good. Stop ask again etc (but the PW can extend to 5 minutes or so- because I know you hahahahaha) make sense?
She wasn't keen to even try in the beginning, but then agreed. After 2 minutes, I got a, what I think was, good crunch, so ended session on this. She stared at me in disbelief and didn't want me to halter her for leaving!
So we walked one other little PW round, then went back to paddock. On the way, she did her skips in a whole series. Then, once unhaltered in the paddock, while I was still standing there, she went up into two beautiful levades. It was so cute that I rewarded her for it. Shouldn't have, maybe?
She is still using her neck and unfortunately it was too far away to see well, but she did lift her back a bit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CMSslbaW6g&feature=youtu.be
you are on a mission arent you LOL - see at .58 she wanted to explore the rope on the ground but you did not let her. she actually moved off at 1.09 with a lift. But after that you are clicking for small effort - there was once there that you asked for more but she gave you the same and then she wanted to leave - she started to explore the rope but then thought better of it and went away. So this is where I would wait and see what she wants. Now that canter at 3.40ish try and move ahead of her as this was good - if you can move ahead a little or have the long stick as long as it can be in front of her nose she may just drop that neck. Yes that next crunch was better and as you say the neck..... so you need to of course go back to using the telescopic pole as I think that the neck is worse than it was and this is because this is where her effort is going (and maybe why she was sore in this area) I would really try and get better and asking for the crunch, when she crunches as her to look at the pole (in front of her head ) and click before she looses all the crunch.but as long as you click as she reduces the lift from her neck this will help in the short term. The best thing is that she followed you when she finished. I would have clicked and treated what she did in the paddock also. But honestly I would do the same time frame tomorrow - there is no problem with playing with her in the paddock afterwards but let it all be what she wants and dont ask for anything but if she wants to offer you something then go for it
I dont personally like to click for exploring as their SEEKING system is motivating them - I feel that what may be happening is that she is giving you more effort but it is coming in the neck - so the other thing we could try is to ask her to line up her feet better - let me see how you go with the pole again (just click as soon as you see her neck drop a bit) and I can show you how to re-position her feet in case if she moves her front feet back a little more (you see my horses do it all the time before I will click) that may help her
For the crunches and the long pointer ahead: this is difficult, as she didn't seem to try to crunch when the pointer was pointing forward, or loose it right away when I start pointing. Must investigate this some more.
Maybe get her more used to it by walking at her side with the long pointer pointing ahead? So, you want all four feet standing square? And her front feet a bit further back?
Would be good to see how I can achieve this.
And when she does crunches and the slow canter, I click the second the head goes a bit down, right? Whew.....
Oh yes, and take my focus more off her, I suppose!
to begin with as soon as she looks like she is lowering her neck click - dont worry about the crunch at this stage - lets do this with the clicker not intrinzen (there are a number of ways) - no we dont want her hinds back -that means her fores are too far foward - lets work on the click for a little lowering of the beck first - yes we want to click as much as possible in all gaits where the neck is not being used (or used less to begin with) - oh it is no problem and none of this is on you - it is very hard I know - and there is very little help out there - so lets do it with the clicker and see if this progresses things more
Okeydokey, will see how we go. Good idea to click for those under saddle as well?
You can tell I'm really itching! Happy to ride her in a noseband for a while, if you think that this is a good idea.
she looked fine in the canter so maybe a little BUT you have to understand that she sees the arena for work - the idea for her to have fun only and stop short in the arena was to change her mind about feeling she 'has' to do it verses I WANT to do it - do you want me to do a video on what I mean? i think I have one about the legs though somewhere as I did it this way for my horses (why? because I am a clicker trainer LOL). Sometimes we have to develop cues and I dont believe when you see my horses crunches I own them - they do and they love to do them
Oh yes, please! Would love to see them! And it is very obvious that your horses love to do them!
yep the clicker did not take away their autonomy - OK so I cannot find the video that I was thinking of at the moment I will keep looking, as it was good to show the progression - otherwise I will do one for you - yes if it were me I would change things around a little for a while if that were possible - I recall you cant really focus on her only if she is in the paddock doing the crunches so yes change it around
OMG I used SATS LOL fuck that was a long time ago - here it is gee that was only 2 years ago I thought it was allot longer
Just a quickie, must tell you what happened right now: brought Carlotta in for evening rugging. Took her to the arena for a few minutes. Had the long bamboo pointer with a piece of poolnoodle at the end. Just walked at her side and held it out in front, at approx. her chest height. She walked with me, did skips and PWs occasionally (I let her do whatever she wanted), and clicked each time she lowered her head a bit or didn't use her neck. She seemed to understand very soon and started to lower her head a bit by herself. While I stood at her side, at one stage, I asked for a crunch, and she did a beautiful one without using her neck.
When walking back to paddock, she offered some PW, then remembered and lowered her head again a bit. Earned her several clicks and treats on the way back
YEP!!!! clicker trumps!
oh the video will need some explaining but will explain after you watched it - I cant add you to the group that was before the project as I was not admin - but it was a very authentic group - you can log in as me if you want
Oh I must remind you also that Carlotta appears to be more motivated now - this happens very quickly when we do very short positive sessions
How was Carlotta?
Had her in the noseband. She was fine, and her canter was very beautiful and slow-motion and elevated.
thats great
Chris brought her back just before nightfall (she had been jousting all day with Rev at Cliff's place), and Carlotta walked along my side in proud PW
sounds really good
This morning, after taking rug off, a 5 minute session in the arena, again with the stick with poolnoodle. She happily performed, sometimes trying to snuggle closer to me. I kept clicking for each head a neck relaxation. After the second time, she seemed to say: Ah yes, I remember!
Asked for 2 crunches, with the target stick held just under her chin, and she arched her neck and lifted her back!
Jackpot and end of session.
thats good - you know you could just do this when you take the rug off where ever you are - BUT back then neck not neck then back
I know, but somehow she never seems to "get" it when I ask differently. And I saw in your Star video that you touched his front legs with your pointer, and he crunched. What I did was pretty similar, I think? I still hope that, once she has understood how it feels, she will do it on her own. no the touching of the front legs was to get him to re position his front legs then crunch Seems like such a frustrating journey.
Ah, OK.
no it isnt - it is early days and we are establishing cues - see thats the point of the SATS as I used this to teach to get the front legs back - of course the intrinzen 'folks' dont agree with this BUT it is not taking away his autonomy AND now I have seen videos of Steinar at the clinics and how rough he can be with horses - I dont care LOL - my way works
Will try a couple of times with the target stick touching her back briefly, she crunches on this and sometimes lifts her back a bit, but the neck still is an issue.
the more I dont 'pick' on you the harder it is to change later
Yes, I understand, if only I wasn't such a stubborn person I really appreciate your patience!
then you cant click for the neck - BUT it has only been a couple of days - so crunch using neck then you ask for the cue you are developing for her neck and then click this and then it will eventually be put together - see were are doing it my clicker way now (not the intrinzen do as I say not as I do way)
it really is no problem for me AND you are giving me HUGE ideas as to what to do with new things I am developing
oh it is nothing you will get it straight away - see the SATS system takes the view that horses are very cognitive beings (I wont go there as there is no way of testing) and uses language with the clicker for the name and explain body parts - it is very easy to see that allot can 'stick' as you will often hear me say 'front leg' and the horses move it back
I like it how Carlotta has started to PW at my side (on the way to paddock) without me cueing her. This morning, she did a dog stretch to the ground again. I wonder whether this feels good to her back.
yep they do love that stretch - Sharney has never really done it but Star does it in preparation for work LOL
I think it is great that she is starting to PW at will - and you can see that sometimes less is really more for them
Would you put it on cue?
Yes, it really sounds like this is the case.
yep it is on cue - I use my hand in a circle from back to front and go stretch anything you like can be cued by adding the cue as the horse does it - you have to be consistent and do it every time you are with them and they do it but it works if they love to do it
I only wish I had another riding horse, so I don't get all these withdrawal symptoms
oh and I click for it
turn your withdrawal symptoms into constructive planning and remember just how happy she is
Yeah, sure, but I am not sure how much time I have left to enjoy what I love most....
Haven ridden Carlotta yesterday evening for 6 minutes (after being pretty sore all day from unloading hay). Had her in the noseband and didn't ask for anything demanding, mainly just walking around quietly and asking for a few steps of canter here and there. She amused herself with some PWs and bunny hops (love that expression). The canter was nice and elevated. She was very surprised when I said "OK" after that short time and hardly believed me when I directed her to the exit (usually she walks there by herself when she hears OK). When going back to paddock, as soon as I fall a bit behind (saddle level), she immediately starts to PW and throws in skips. She did it this morning when walking towards arena.
hahahaha Carlotta has got it!
I have some ideas also to change the neck bear with me I will video shortly
I keep clicking only when, during her movements and crunches, she softens her topline. Then she says "oops, I forgot" and corrects herself
yes thats great thats what we want!
I had placed the mat in the arena and asked her twice to approach it. She put her foot on a couple of times, then I turned her loose, folded the mat and just stood there. She farted and looked into the distance. After a while, she turned around and I clicked for it. She took a few steps towards my outstretched hand (a metre away from the mat) and took the treat. A few repetitions, and we stopped. On the way to paddock, she went straight back into PW and once even tucked her chin in a bit (I got a bit far behind because she was swinging her legs so eagerly, hahaha). Once set free, I stood there for a moment. She tried crunch, then decided to get my attention NOW and went up into levade. I rewarded, then left, as I don't want Valeta to pick that up - she would be all over the top of me, if she learned this!
I held the mat upright by the handles.
its a good start - try not to look at her LOL
Yep, I remember that from time to time!
May 7, 2019
Exchange with Julie:
Love your Sharney, and Star too is a very elegant horse in his type.
oh Sharney is just so great - I am getting her stronger and stronger. I wish that I had her from a baby. Star is Star LOL but he is really starting to enjoy moving so thats all I can ask
so with the first video Carlotta was telling you no so you need to let her process and come back to you in her time (not for a treat) - I would not be clicking when her emotions are not as good as they could be - no clicking for looking at the mat (if this were me) and she needs to come to the mat - not you bring the mat to her. She then starts to walk away again (she does not want the conflict of the click and does not want a treat) but as you walked towards her again she looked away and took her mind off somewhere - so breath and wait for her to come to you. See she is really yelling at you a big NO with the mat - so you need to either leave the mat down and see if she ever wants to come near it or if you cant trust yourself dont bring it out. I believe it is poisoned now for her and we need to go back to listening to her before you ask anything .....hint hint - see I understand the frustration - it is just a silly mat - but for her it is something else. What you have to try and remember is that if our horse wants distance that means they want distance so clicking and treating is the opposite to distance - we want to provide the reinforcer that our horse desires. So think about it this way - do we want to mark those emotions we would rather not have our horses feel? I can see you are confused and want to try and change her mind with the mat - you cant - and this is making it harder for her.
now see at 1.59 when you clicked her near the mat - lets stop thinking that you can control her emotions here with the clicker
you are still clicking the neck - did you see the SATS video? see where her front feet are? Yes this is good with the stick at 5.10
in the second video - see how much more willing she is going to be with you? I would not be clicking for walking towards you - try not to rely on the clicker so much - just feel gratitude for her walking with you and smile and tell her she is a good girl
I watched it, but will have to watch it again.
Thank you for the explanations about the mat. Duh! It will stay in the shed now, until it will come out for Valeta. After all, it's not that important. We can do other things instead. When leaving the arena yesterday, I stopped on the short slops just outside and she did a crunch for me there. yes i am glad you are seeing you are not giving her time to process but see how she walked away from you after that first click and treat? I suspect this is because she cant understand why she got the click and she was not feeling proud. In the PW try not to be so far behind her and start to use your stick here as well for her to follow and then shape her head a little more
I tried to have her rearrange her feet, but I think I asked for it the wrong way. She wanted to offer positioning for levade instead or just lifted the leg.
you are funny - see at 1.10 CLICK hahahahaha - no the legs with the SATS are not to lift they are to re-position herself so she has a better chance to crunc
Bummer how I get carried away all the time and then forget crucial things in the "heat of the moment", like giving her time and listening to her.
Will try to do it better next time and pay attention to what she says.
no OK so use the full legth of the stick tap lightly with you standing to her side and say front leg and click and treat - the tapping is name and explain so that she will learn when you say front leg she will move it back a little
have a look at 2.10 YES YES YES
and see after that can you see how her front legs are too far in front of her so she has no option but to use her neck
Definitely should have clicked at 1:10, instead of just being pleased!
yes that would have been the place to click - OK you need to go back to the SATS video just the little at the beginning where I explain what front leg is - as from 2.10 she cant crunch with her legs out the front like that
Yes for the front legs. I suppose we will have to work on good leg position first.
Ok so what you are doing is touching her and there is a pause (as you saying anything as I cant hear over the wind?) - then you are clicking - it is almost touch and click and the same time touch click front leg treat - and it is very quick and there are no pauses - I will try and find one of Kayces with a zoo animal to show you how quick it is Ouch at 3:30 - I did it again!
Goody, thank you. The feeling in your SATS video is of very elevated energy, not the usual calm like in your other videos.
How do you like her last crunch in that video?
yes it is very high energy- we then get slower by xxxxxxX good job treat but at the beginning it is very fast. The one I want to show you was with a rhino but it does not seem to be on line, I have it somewhere I will have to find it. Yes that last crunch was pretty good but I think the one at 2.10 was the best
The SATS video is so far back I can't find it anymore. Can you give me the link again please? Right, the one at 2:10 is more fluent and almost looks like it should!
OK I will find it hang on
yes the 2.10 one would have got quadruple treats from me Thanks. Hahah, you are doing a great PW backwards!
So, in the beginning, do you say "front leg" or "back leg"? Can't understand it very well. And do you slightly touch the leg with the pointer? Or just hold it near?
Looks to me like you almost want the horse in mountain goat position, i.e. the front legs a bit backwards?
yes I say leg or front leg or back leg and yes touch very slightly - we wnat the fronts to be under the shoulders
Love it how you always ask him whether he is ready. Really must start doing this instead of imposing myself on Carlotta.
OK, thanks, will try and keep you informed how it goes.
can you see at 1.13 he was not in a good position to crunch and how I used it to get a better positon?
Yes, I saw that. oh the are you ready - thats all the SATS training that I have - so it is a HUGE habit - I may have to go back into the old hard drives to find the video I wanted to show you but there is a good ebook I will send you on dropbox as I think it will be too large to load here Lovely, thank you.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kr9lad02ru00ek6/TALK%20to%20me%21%20small.pdf?dl=0
I found the reduced size one but there is the link - just download it - you will pick up allot of what I say (especially are you ready) from the perception modification stuff - as I said I do not do allot of her stuff - just the stuff that works for me but I did spend years studying it with her I think one of the things that makes me so chatty with the horses is the old SATS training but allot of it is also when we speak out loud we visualise what we want and that also helps with our focus and reminds us when we need to do something else (rather than what we are thinking) Makes a lot of sense.
Wow, that is a lot in that link. Will look into it more when I have more time.
Not much to report recently. Carlotta really fancies that Power Canter! She offers it all the time, which means every few seconds! This morning I had planned to do just 5 minutes of calm walking and some turns, as I had a Pilates session afterwards which can be a bit draining at times. But no, Carlotta wanted to do her elevated canters. And when I said "pspsps", which means "lovely, but not thanks, not now", she went into PW right away... My back was well "massaged" through by the end of those 5 minutes, hahaha.
And when I took her back into her paddoc, as soon as the halter was off and she was on her way towards the fillies and the hay piles, she did 2 or 3 steps of that canter! Funny girl! It is very wet here - finally! Some 80 mm of rain over the last 2 days. That should save the next hay harvest, whew!
May 12, 2019
oh she sounds very happy hahahahaha - rain whats that? I wish it would make a return here May 12, 2019, 9:17 AM
It's that wet stuff that sticks to your saddle before you can get into it, and then flogs your face and makes your horse grumpy
it sounds like you are getting the mix now so that is really good. Star had to show off to the trimmer after he was done and it was little nickers in this panther/shoulder in he has decided now to do all the time - and with nice bending and stellning - gott video that and see if it is good for him LOL
Panther shoulder-in.... WOW!
Carlotta is telling you what is working - yes I cannot get a non PW in front now hahahaha
They are going through phases..
When Carlotta didn't want to continue with laterals around the cone today, she started to do a shoulder-in PW.
interesting, so I need to work out whether that is good for them
May 13, 2019
She did it again today!
Yes, looks like Carlotta is happy. You would really have laughed yesterday. I hopped on briefly to show Carola and Lisa who to ride her, mentioned that there might be some spectacular things going on. But no, Carlotta wasn't in the mood for any of the Intrinzen fun. After riding, I took her into the arena and wanted to show off her PW and bunny hops from the ground. Nope! She didn't wanna! Carola and Lisa almost rolled on the floor laughing, when I said to Carlotta: Can't you do a teensy-weensy PW at least, puuuleeeease?
May 14, 2019
oh the horses never do what we want when we want to show off LOL. Good the money went through well Greg wanted to do it that way hahahahahaha. Hope Carola enjoys the videos
Yep, and he got well served!
Oh yes, they horses can make you look sooo stupid...
yep!
Both girls said that had never ridden a horse so light on cues and so fine-tuned.
thats so nice
Oh, and Csrlotta did two beautiful crunches for me while they watched. You should have heard the Ooohs and Aaahs, and they wanted to know how I taught her that. I laughed and said: it took a loooong time!
hahahaha well the online course I am developing may get people there quicker LOL. I have one thing to test out on you but need to video to show you first
you realise you are instrumental in getting my finger out of my bum with this!
I feel honoured, Julie
no it is the way Steinar taught it (which was not the way I did it) but the problem is that many people have tried and we cannot correct the posture the same as we would if we began from scratch. But there is a way I have been working through with the horses to get the neck out that may be easier once it is there - hard as we dont have a neck but I had to go back to what it was that I did differently to work this out - stay tuned will do the video soon. I have worked out the platform and also the lessons just gotta video what I say
Have been a good girl and rode 9 minutes this morning. She is so light and willing, such a pleasure.
Something interesting and new: while I was unsaddling, Carlotta started doing crunches by her own. Several even!
yeah that sounds really good, it is just getting better and better - glad the clinic is sorted We might end up at the same stage as you and Star that I holler "Lift" across the paddocks. Not tomorrow yet, but maybe the week after, hahaha
you will for sure it wont take long - it will come and go and she will have different preferences for different days and she will keep putting things together. Star is still on renvers for some reason at the moment - the more effort the more he grunts and the more he bends and then nickers LOL
OH I meant to find you an example of a really good cheap cavesson that doubles as a halter and does not really act as a noseband - I will try and find it now - as I had forgotten I used it before I used a 'real' one, and went back to that today when I took them for a walk.
this is it - I had always got mine from the UK - I do believe there is somewhere in aus but not sure where now - they run a little small but they double as a standard halter and works perfectly with light aids (in hand)
here is the first of the course I am creating - I have a beta tester so this may not be clear (please tell me if it is not clear to you of course) - it was freezing here this morning LOL - in this you can see what I am trying to also develop before we begin to crunch - the connection to the chest - 'lift' see if that helps if you still need it
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dgqb9hdu2rq867k/1.%20name1comp.mp4?dl=0
Hahahaha, maybe remind Gusti to sit back and breathe at times. And tell him what you told me: keep sessions SHORT! Worked wonders for Carlotta.
Just watched the video.
Maybe could be useful to give a few explanations to inexperienced people, like for example that in the beginning you click as soon as you have touched the body part and named it, i.e. you don't really need a reaction at this stage. And in the end, also explain why you ask her to bend her head around, i.e. "can you do Y while you are doing X?"
I noticed that when you ask "lift", you hold your pointer in a very similar position I do (and began to get the lift with this, without her using her neck as a balance crow bar).
Interesting that you drop treats in Sharney's bucket and proceed to ask for more body parts while she is still busy munching. Also you voice modulations that occur at times, mostly when doing the back leg.
I suppose that doesn't make much difference to our horses.
So, you want me to do a video with all the elements, so people can see how it goes with a less experienced horse? Could also use Valeta for the "leg" etc. cues (apart from the crunches), as she is completely new to this.
yes the explanations are going to be in the actual text that accompanies the lessons - no the crunch part was just a preview (the crunches come way later) - it was just the way it happened today with the voice LOL - no you dont have to unless you want to but sure - I have a person who is beta testing so it does not matter if you dont - it was only that she has been asking me for help so I eventually said this is how I could help
aghhh! yes the chest is interesting - I was working on this with shoulder in
She is just barely starting to do correct ones when I cue her on the back or croup. Had the trimmer in and Carlotta got impatient when left behind in the arena. I was very surprised, she usually doesn't do that kind of stuff. Very respectful to fences. yep I think the little cue on the chest (if their feet are good) gives the gentle weight shift back and then up - I prefer up then back but i feel this takes the neck out so quickly that I wonder if it is worth going to all the trouble with correcting
May 15, 2019
Did a video this arvo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVemGW-hcx0&feature=youtu.be
Noticed that I "missed" (didn't click) one very nice back lift, somewhere in the middle
Then was worried that you wouldn't be able to hear what I said (it's OK when you turn up the volume), so did a second one from closer. But Carlotta had enough by then, so it's not so good. Here it is, just for the records:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVdaNLWC1kk&feature=youtu.be
with the body targets I suspect you dont need to actually touch just point, we dont want her walking off and then you click that so it is a good reminder for me - so point to the area rather than touch her hinds - I have ordered some feathers to see what that will do also - you are still clicking for using the neck LOL at 1.45 - so for her I would only use the chest. So at 2.24 that was good, I would use the pointer to ask her to look and then click. My gut feeling is that she is in the corner as a compromise - 'ok mum alright' rather than 'ok lets go' so I would wait for her when she goes in the corner and engage when she comes to you (rather than the other way around) - think of the corner as her autonomy. Could she be thinking you want to cue something with her back legs? Look at where her front legs are when you click at 5.16 LOL - so she is at the stage in her fronts where you can ask her to take them a little further back - but not in the corner - think of the corner as her space. OK so when you are asking for her leg to go back (5.38 - ask and then take the pointer away and if it still stays there ask again - rather than leave the pointer on) - good things for me to address in the text! but a good click when she moved it (but she lifted it rather than placed it back - I would therefore ask again) - remember we get what we click for so if you are going to click when her back leg is in the air that is what she thinks you want (now I will be playing with this but with a feather)
All good points, of course. I am proud of myself to always be able to deliver all these things that need improvement...
Yes, I suppose she thinks I want back leg lift then turn around towards me, as I had accidentally clicked this once!
Hahaha, feathers I have a lot. I have collected them and keep them in my tack room, so I have something to scrape the lucerne chaff out from under the roller of the shank bit! Mostly cockie feathers, so fairly short ones. I had seen that Steinar had used (Pheasant?) feathers in some of his videos. When I take videos, I tend to not allow Carlotta to go away and think, because I don't want to waste the video time...
Will try to incorporate all this into the next sessions.
in the second vid she walks away - I would wait and see when she comes back to me. try and see what the target at her chest does for lift rather than her wither - I think that it may take the neck out - yes see at 1.33 there was allot less neck. 2.18 was a good click! oh 1 second too late at 2.28. 2.36 perfect. Now at 2.54 you did not look at her front legs before the lift - so legs first and then ask for the lift - if her legs are too far forward she cant lift well. I would have clicked at 3.00 as she was trying to reposition herself. at abount 3.04 you are seeing her legs. so wait for her to move it back before clicking now. Definitely I would not be clicking for hinds lifted. Nice at 3.21. That was good at 4.07
OK so the feathers - twine them around the little stayers in the pole if they are still there - I think that they may work better for her - yeah I know about the video time - but at the end of the day the more we dont listen the more this keeps on keeping on - best to sacrifice a video day or two - (I have plenty)
the back legs are always hard and maybe that accounts for my difference in tone with Sharney also as she has so much muscle damage in the back - so just be aware of this we dont want the lift and put down we want her to just recognise that we are saying back leg - perhaps the feathers will help with her
May 18, 2019
So the way this online course will be structured I think is 1. SATS 2. power walk (this is engagement with the target as a lift under the chest and then a down stretch - with rhythm - I may have to do a bit of targeting BUT I want follow the target not touch) 3. Then core work - teaching the crunch 4. then mat and pedestal work (which includes somatic stuff of lifting feet and also carrot stretches 5. then pantherwalk and of course the aim of this course is to develop mastery and confidence with the principles of the PVT
Sounds great, Julie!
Off to morning chores, then Pilates, then cooking dinner for guests tonight, hopefully talk tomorrow. Have a lovely, quiet weekend! have fun
2 questions: why do you not want her to move the hind legs when I say "hind leg"? I thought we want this, as she needs to reposition herself?
And: when she does PW under saddle, am I sitting light or "deep"?
because she is not 'moving' the legs she is reacting - we dont want that - and it is easier to ask for the front legs to be repositioned and then the back ones will only need a tweak - but reactions come with emotions that we do not want to have her react this is why I suggested feathers for her - make sense?
if the PW is happening under saddle you will feel your body rise and fall with her strides so you need to be light as best you can - it is hard to do though as it is such a off balancing thing
one of the things that you can also do is to try and click sooner for the back legs - so the click is the moment the hoof leaves the ground and this may work to help her understand we want a purposeful move not a reaction - and remember the more we click for high lifts the harder it will be to fix that later - this is also why I use the vet wrap around my pointer because cues are everywhere - if we are using the pointer in a different way (with the 'target' like point) they can learn to discriminate really well
BUT again see you have added to my information that I will be providing in a lesson! thankyou
Useful guinea pig?
Thanks for the great hints. I had a feather on the pointer this morning already and had tried to click earlier. Will need some work to get the reaction out of her system, I'm afraid. But I could see a small step into the right direction.
Makes me happy that I now am able to work some things out by myself, like clicking earlier for leg lifts. I thought this morning: let's try that. Also tried to softly stroke along her croup and halfway down hind leg with the feather. She kept her leg on the ground, but seemed a bit irritated.
If you want to use parts of my videos as "bad" examples, you are very welcome!
it takes the time it takes - but thats good if you are seeing improvements AND yes yeah your mind is working it out!!! - there are no bad examples LOL - BUT it will be good to add a few pics here and there to show examples of what we need to be careful of. The next step which is the power walk is coming together but fog to bad this morning to video. What I really feel is that the core posture work comes too soon - we have to develop masterful, energetic and motivated horses first and this way I feel we dont have to 'undo' allot of the stuff. For example in the power walk I am working out exactly how to ask the horse to follow our focus with the pointer and to create a little stellning and bending at the poll - the shoulder cue can then lead the circle and a little capacity if we get the correct footfall as we ask for the shoulder - gotta work out a way of explaining this better. THEN we extend the power walk to further away with the use of our pointer and whoalla we have created distance so we dont need to extinguish and risk the behaviours we get when this happens - a few days for me to really work out the best way of showing it.
May 20, 2019
I found an old video of me teaching SATS to Star
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1uy2f30yig8d5s1/name%20and%20explain%20Star%20comp.mp4?dl=0
Sounds like a great approach, Julie! Love it!
It often felt to me like Carlotta was struggling with PW, due to not enough capacity, but still insisted because she so much wants to please me.
Yes, my feeling to for how to sit when she does PW under saddle. I was sitting light almost all of the time, was just double-checking with you
Have experimented a bit this morning with the feather at the end of the pointer. Touched her ever so lightly with it (her ears were very vivid!) and she tried to figure things out: slightly shifter her weight back when the feather touched her front leg, then moved them very softly a little bit (which she hadn't done very well before). I also tried here and there to just hold the feather close without touching her.
For the hind legs, I started with touching her hip with the feather (so she wouldn't move her legs reactively), and it was fascinating to see how she tried out several things, like standing still, twitching some muscles, shifting her weight back, then - BINGO - slightly shifting a hind leg in a non-reactive way.
She did throw in a couple of the reactive ones, but waaay better already! sounds great maybe for her the feather gives a different sensation Yes, definitely! I love this.
It's so much more delicate. And she is such a delicate creature and loves cues to be very soft to almost inexsitent.
yes and also it helps for horses who may be used to escalating pressure and release - from ebay
I will keep an eye out for them on the ground (cockies, magpies and such), but I think the moult is over for now.
it will be interesting to see if the little flag connectors on the pointer work I did that stupid escalating pressure in my Parelli times, but have come off it ages ago, of course. I took those off I think. Just wrapped a bit of elastic wrap around the feather. yep the wrap will do it for sure - I think the ones I have ordered are quite long Wow, love the SATS video of Star!
that was when i was teaching him - so that is the way I also taught the PW
At one stage, he does the same reactive hind leg thinggy like Carlotta. yep he did - but I was touching the other leg LOL
Hahahaha
Who would have thought that it is so much fun to work all this out! Lovely, mild weather for the last few days. So much fun to ride in a T-shirt! Carlotta is happy to dance for me, so it's pure bliss
I have the impression that, since Anke did that in-hand work with her, it's now very easy for her to sort out and straighten her body upon a mere weight shift from me. Such a glorious feeling when your horse follows your slightest movements.
Carola and Lisa (our last visitors) just couldn't believe it how prompty Carlotta reacted to their slightest changes in weight and focus - even when they hadn't even noticed that he had actually done one, hahaha
thats great. yes it is really good if they can follow our movements and really it is all about having fun also as if she is relaxed and thinking it will be all good for her. I was digging around the videos to see if I had allot of the begining stuff with crunches and I have which is good.
May 21, 2019
More experimenting with the feather: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjFakrSsElo&feature=youtu.be
Oops, didn't notice that I made the session that long!
In the last third, she had either completely enough or felt irritated or tickled by the feather when I touched her chest and asked for lift.
I tested that theory on the way to paddock. Picked up a twig, touched her chest very lightly and said lift and she did, without walking away like she did from around 9:50. Thoughts?
that was nice when you gave her some time and she went into her school halt - I wish we could get her neck out so she could use her core. Its the same in the PW she is not using her core - a dainty PW but LOL. She understands the feet though I would not be doing this anymore except when you ask her for a crunch. At 3.35 you are asking her to 'lean' with the chest - see how you kept it on her for a few seconds - but see her front feet - so we have to be careful we dont set her up for failure - I would do the 'chest' when you are walking (good that you did this). Yep I am sure you are just repeating things too much now - she has this so I would not do more unless she was crunching. I did not think her back legs were as reactive as they have been though. see at 6.31 - we cant get her neck out when you click for it LOL - so if you are in SATS just for SATS then name click name click - dont let her have the opportunity to do more - but you dont need to do this anymore - I would be working on the crunch when her feet are good and then lets see what she does with her neck and - but you have to remember not to wait for allot in the crunch just a little as we need to reshape it so she does not use her neck and dont ask for too much - a couple and thats it do something else. You are getting so good at giving her time! but she is annoyed as it is repetitive and too long - remember repetition just for the sake of repeating is punishing. we need to add this to a purpose and the purpose is crunch, can you move your feet and crunch again
May 23, 2019
Been busy again, sorry. Get her neck out? You mean she should stretch her chin forward, so to speak? Can't see how she can use her core when doing this. I tried to crunch myself doing it and it was impossbile.
Seems to me that I haven seen several times that she did lift her back and use her core. Like at 2:14 in this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVdaNLWC1kk
May 26, 2019
Sorry for my whining. Going through a time of frustration and discouragement right now, as I never seem to get anywhere with the crunches and the core lifting.
Julie:
when I say get her neck out think of it like she is using her underneck to balance her posture and try and crunch - so if you try and crunch and you are on all fours but you try and lead the crunch by using your neck (your chin goes up the more effort but it is your underneck / throat that is trying to lift) and then try instead of that your chin in a little and push your belly button through to the back of your spine as you do this your shoulders will raise- there is a difference you should be able to feel - it is not impossible - if you think it is then you are not using your abs well. The difficulty is that you reward her for it when she uses her underneck to lead the crunch- until the rewards for this consistently stop it is always going to be there
I am looking at the video and struggling to see what you are clicking for - are you getting a little reliant on the clicker for 'normal' things? she is definitely not motivated at the beginning and was not interested in your suggestions - BUT think about what you are clicking for - there is no issue with using the clicker to micro manage but it is not something I would encourage. If you think about what you are rewarding - so here is an example - Carlotta is not really interesting in coming to me - so yes initially she will get the click and treat - but that was some time ago now - and can you see here (not always in some videos it is really great) but here she is just coming to you at an even - 'whatever' 'take or leave it' kind of way - as she knows this will get her a click and a treat - so ask yourself what are you clicking for - coming to you (unmotivated) - now this is fine if you are...or are you clicking because the camera is rolling and it will always be number one rule that when the camera is on, our horse just will stand there - so are you clicking here to get something on video? no judgement and just be honest with yourself here to be sure you know the answer. I did click Star for anything when he would come to me initially as he would not come to me - then when this was 'known' I would only click if he came to me with motivated attitude - if I went in the paddock and he did not come to me I never went to him (unless of course a vet etc was waiting) - I would wait - BUT I have the added advantage that Sharney is there also and taking her always will have the effect of Star wanting 'in' so I can never truly say that it is waiting that did it but he comes to me with motivation all the time now
so you are repeating SATS again - you dont need to repeat it - remember repetition is punishing but have a look here at the first one at .48 - see how she was stretching back with her front legs fixed to the ground - we dont want this - now if this was at the chest in a walk this would be the early stages of the half halt for collection - but pause at .49 - can you see the underneck is starting to come into her full movement - this is what I mean about the underneck in the crunches. So now at the crunches - help her be successful first before you ask for a lift - see at 1.12 she is not holding an even posture? so Steinar would say not to click this but wait for the horse to set it up - I say help the horse set it up - this is the purpose of the SATS - to ask for a better standing posture and then lift - here can you see at 1.17 she lifted her neck (this is what I am talking about - see her underneck is doing the work). There was no underneck in the next one but her front right leg seems forward here so I cannot see if there could be a crunch. Now the next time when you ask for her front leg - you are still naming it rather than waiting for her to take it back - so no more clicking for name LOL. I think the next thing was chest - thats fine but remember to lift yourself (this is the half halt part of the crunch). That front leg at 1.47 was better but dont leave the pointer on her leg - if you do that you are asking her to respond to pressure and release rather than bringing her attention to it (take it off her leg) give her a chance to move it - if not remind her again by pointing and taking it off - dont leave it on - see the difference? at around 2.00 that was good, I would personally aim for this to the be absolute least you would click for consistently as there was no neck used and she was standing pretty OK. now at 2.05 you only just managed to get the click in before the underneck was used - so remember your pointer here to direct her head down and then click and treat - pause at 2.14 - move your pointer so she sees it and takes her head towards it a little - ask for the lift again and then click - for some reason you have forgotten about this and you are pushing the pointer to her chest? the chest is simply a name and you have done this - so in walk now and again we can also use this to half halt. but yes at 2.18 PERFECT. See at 2.33 she is standing well but you said front leg? this immediately sent her leaning back - I think this is because the pointer sometimes is left on her leg so she is trying to work out what you want and this is developing because she is being clicked for it.
Pause at 2.53 - a perfect crunch but look at her front legs. You see the problem and you dont click and she starts to shape her legs better - this is all good stuff but then you leave the pointer on her front leg and click - you dont need to name now - ask 'front leg' back at 2.53 and only direct the pointer to her leg if you need to (and take it straight off) - so the sequence at 2.53 would be better this way - lift....front leg (NO pointer) - best scenario she lifts her front leg....and it is placed back a little (if not use the pointer to -touch her leg as you say front leg and then take the pointer off) - yes good, other front leg (same thing if needed) - yes good lift YES click treat - make sense? I would not be clicking for those reactive back legs - but I dont think you need any naming now you only need to use it if you want her to posture herself better for the crunch - now it is purpose only. What was the reason for clicking at 3.22? now the way she was standing after this she was in the perfect position to crunch but you went to her back leg again - are you maybe trying to desensitise her? if so you do what feels right for you but dont do this at the same time as crunching as this is where you need to work through emotions separately. The SATS we are using are simply for naming so we can ask when we need to - but remember repetition is punishing and that may have a hand in this as well. YES at 4.06 this is what you want to see (at first I was not sure you saw it but you did - as you were focusing on her legs LOL) - YES YES YES. I would have clicked when you said Yes the next one - but what that tells me is that she does not know what yes means in this context as it ought to make her feel proud. so remember to use the keep going signal allot and she will get it. So I think you are getting somewhere with the crunches but you need to be consistent with not clicking when she uses her underneck - use the keep going signal allot more and dont name any more - only ask when you need to and tap (and take off) when you need to - also here is a challenge for you - put up something that can show you were the cameras view is - and each second ask - go off with her and play for a tick and then come back into the cameras view and ask for a crunch - only a crunch and go and play again - help set her up for success for every crunch though as we have talked about here - and we dont want more than 4 crunches - so each crunch gets a click because it was effort and good and we are clicking and treating this and then also going and doing what she loves to do - so the video will contain allot of 'scenery' and 4 crunches only...lets see what happens
Exchange with Julie:
Oh Julie, you are so patient with me, and my poor horse has to put up with me sigh I am really frustrated and considering giving up on it, as I don't seem to be able to do it correctly and enable Carlotta to progress.
But I will read and re-read all your above suggestions, compare with the exact moments in the video, and then try again to put it to work.
What discouraged me the most was when you said that she is not using her back when doing PW. It feels like she lifts a lot when doing it under saddle though.
Yes, you are right: when the camera was on and in the beginning, I clicked her for turning towards me half-heartedly. Deep inside, I knew it was bribery, haha.
Such a pity you never travel to our area - it would have been so wonderful to see you work with her and have you to coach me through my struggles. Ah well, life's a bitch...
Almost 5 months of doing this, and so little progress. I have never spent so much time on a learning process with so small success.
I suppose it's a phase I go through, and I just have to take a deep breath and try again. But it's kinda difficult to pedal in one spot, so to speak, when the riding is so much more fun, because so much more achieved.
But I still would love to get this to work, as I would love her to be able to use her core. One excellent thing that happened: she is so much happier now. And only this might be worth it all, if all else fails
Sorry for being a pain in the ... Shouldn't pour all this into your poor ear, haha.
you are going well, you just need to stop reinforcing what we want to change LOL - the PW I see on the ground she is not using her core - that may be different under saddle as you have other aids you may be accidentally using (we cannot help this) - I am not ruling out travelling, I am not yet sure if I can handle it yet so we shall see. I have a very good friend down there and it may happen - it will happen but you have to take the pressure off yourself - and it is no bother AND you are making me work and this is important for me - so look at the video and see when you have time that is if you can see the difference when the underneck is used (and of course that is another difference under saddle - she has the bridle on. first thing is first this is the most important thing and once this is changed we will see a mammoth cruncher
Have asked her for a few crunches before putting the rug on tonight. The first one was with underneck, so ignored it and asked her to walk forward a few steps. The 3 following ones were good, and I made darn sure to click at a very early stage.
yeah for you
May 25, 2019
I got on all 4s and did crunches as described by you. Yep, works well. Now... to get Carlotta to do the right things. And resist my own urge to click her for things that were not wanted, just because I felt sorry for her not to earn clicks
Correct, I didn't give her a chance to walk towards me with eagerness. And sometimes even walked to her yet again.
Good approach you used with Star. I can't wait it out in the paddock for her to come to me all the way. Will see whether it can be built up more over time. But at least she stops now and waits for me, while before she always walked away and didn't want to be caught. Maybe I could go and do a few tries to wait for her when I don't "want" anything during the day. Will report what happens.
Valeta comes to me all the time, but not Carlotta, especially when the little ones are snuggled around me. But I will pay close attention to do it better in the arena. And maybe I can take her into another paddock on her own and try it there.
And yes, I fell into the trap of clicking her again for normal things.
why cant you wait it out for her in the paddock? see that head turn when you approach? stop when this happens and wait for her to cue you to walk on - so when her head turns to you again then approach - this will be a good compromise
Usually I am coming in late, so in a hurry to get her rug on and feed everybody. And with this lousy wqather, I am happy to get things over and done with before getting soaked again. You mean CAT, right?
Ahaaaaa, now I have figured out why I couldn't see what you commented in about the video. I had created confusion by reposting the older one (called Carlotta body targets and only 4-something minues long), and I thought you had commented on the most recent one which is 14 minutes long!
So watched the short one again and, yey, saw everything you talked about. Agree on everything. Just have to remember to first check her legs before asking for crunch (resp. the beginning of it). I seem to forget this way too often. Just checking: when she stands square for her front feet parallel, this is all we need as crunch prerequisite, right? No need to bring the feet closer together in "mountain goat" position?
May 27, 2019
I think we are on our way now. Sometimes, when she stands in the paddock and wants my attention, she does a "bad" crunch (using her neck). What do I do then? Just smile and say good girl, or go to her and ask her for something she does well and then click? I feel so sorry for her when she tries so hard to do something she thinks I like.
CAT? with the head turning? no thats not CAT - with the head turning she is saying no I am not ready (for whatever reason) so when we ignore this and keep moving towards her we are saying we dont care that she is not ready - so she has no control emotionally. If we stop when this happens and wait for HER to signal us to come towards her (CAT is signalling for us to go back) then we are giving her the control as to the speed at which we approach her. Sorry I am confused now about the comments - I dont think I have missed any videos? I thought it looked familar though - the last two videos were the body targets - I recall a 14 minute one that I commented on but cant find that video when I scroll up now
no you just want her feet aligned with her shoulder - if then the crunch is not getting there the feet are the first we would check - I do like the back feet to also be square but if not the quality of the crunch is not as affected as the neck with the front feet. Yes smile and ask again and say can we do this again without the neck to yourself or what you like to say - that will happen less and less though. Its fine to click early but we are going to have to wait soon or else you will never get more, and this is where you can use the keep going signal now and click but then soon delay the click a little
Great explanation, thanks, Julie. Yes, I was worried a bit that Miss Smartiepants would soon think that a minimal effort is enough. I have started to use the keep going signal for crunches, and I like the conversation to myself about trying again without neck!
Would it be a good idea to touch her back and do a little scritchie with my fingertips to make her aware that I would like a back lift in the crunch? She has done a few, but somehow I have the feeling that she needs more "pointers" to be really aware of what we want.
yes for sure scratch her withers but if her feet are aligned and you use a keep going signal (I use yes or more) and take it slowly so as not to destroy her confidence there will be a little bit more and thats what we click for
There was a gap between two showers, so off to the paddock. Deposited the wheelbarrow with hay outside and walked in with the horses. Of course, Valeta came immediately and offered to do shoulder-in at my side. Did a little bit of that, than asked her to leave. Carlotta watched and stood. So I called her, but didn't move from my spot. After a minute or so, she suddenly walked towards me and stopped at my side. Praise, then I asked for a crunch, which she did with neck. Said "Can you do it again without neck?" and she did. Click. Then she had to chase the fillies away, but came back to me. Asked for another crunch, and it was so-so, so didn't reward it. Again after the fillies, but came back again. Changed sides and asked again, holding out the pointer. Nice crunch this time. Click and end of session. Got the hay and rushed inside, accompanied by the joyfully hopping dogs. A girl rode past my gate at that moment, on a very big Clydie, not even wearing a jacket. I said you better rush, because the clouds became more and more threatening and night was about to fall. Hope she made it home safely.
sounds really good Yvonne
oops hahahaha Y and T the cat was typing
May 28, 2019
This morning, she came again to me right away, even when she knew that it was for a riding session.
Gee thats great!
We managed to get finished before the rain kicked in again. Asked for a couple of crunches after unsaddling. Still struggling with her wanting to use her neck a bit. But I got 2 decent ones, using yes-yes-yes. She did beautiful, even more elevated skips during the ride. And nice PWs in between the other stuff. Offered collected frame by herself several times. Had her on loose contact. She seems to like the new bit (portuguese mild shank with curbed side and a bit of tongue freedom). Looks soo flash: all in "silver", with brass (golden) buttons on the side of the bit. And Chris gave me brass clips for the reins - looks just beautiful. Must take photos.
Haha, fortunately we have only one cat left. That's plenty enough for me, as I am always the one they sit on!
It sounds great how she is feeling - the neck will come less and less the more consistent you are and it sounds like this is happening!
It's just hard not to go too fast and look for tiny improvements
And I find it very hard not to click, because she puts in so much effort to please me, even if the wrong thing comes out. But I am doing my very best.
My friend Ruth from Germany reads my training diary (and thus your comments which I always add, because I want to keep them and be able to get back to them). She still is very sceptic about Intrinzen and what we are working on with Carlotta. But she admitted that Carlotta's outlook on life and her attitude have changed so much towards positive, so "it suddenly has its merits"
She met her last November at her visit here, before all this happened.
I hope she will come back, so she can experience my changed Carlotta herself and "live".
I think that we are a little 'past' intrinzen in the strict sense as I dont feel that Carlotta has any physical parking brakes, but I do believe that she may have some emotional ones and giving her freedom to choose is making the difference for her. We are of course changing the way we are teaching the crunch and the PW . I also do believe that she needs more capacity but that is getting there too - what we do need to begin to work on is making the crunch really autonomous but we need to get that neck out of them all first and it is happening. What I mean by the crunch being autonomous is that she automatically uses her core to stop and 'go' and I am sure she actually does most of the time, I am trying to put this together with the power walk - it is not easy but I think it is happening
yes she may not like the 'light' touch - strange as there are allot of horses who dont - I wonder if it feels like a fly to them and they cannot discriminate
Yes, definitely past Intrinzen now. You are adding very valuable things to our toolbox. I am fascinated and honoured to be an active part of the process
As long as you think that we will get there, I am happy to keep trying. Just such a pain that I am never sure I am doing it right. Will take more video for you, once the weather clears up.
aghh you are helping me being the guinea pig. yes you are getting there - remember it was a huge shift for you to make first
Oh yes! Break with a lifetime's habits is not a small thing
My biggest concern at the moment is that I will not be able to guide Lotta through improving her posture step by step. Would be horrible if she stagnated because I can't do what is necessary.
Do a little and lets see with lotta....just a little as she is the young one isnt she
For the feather: I really had the feeling that it tickled her, like a fly indeed, and that she hated it. Usually she loves light touch (like for rein contact and such) and responds to it willingly and promptly.
Hahaha, only 13 I just shortened Carlotta to Lotta
Yep i think they like our contact
Oh god lol haha lotta is getting it
The young one is Valeta. Do you know the cartoons of Prince Valiant? Chris chose her name from them, as Prince Valiant's wife is Aleta, and their daughter's name is a mixture from both their names - Valeta - voila!
Oh kool...valenta thats right
April 29, 2019
Gosh, my softie side has taken over yet again. I just heard that Wotan, whom I had given to a local woman "for life", is neglected. So I spontaneously decided to take him back. Greg is OK with it. Chris will pick him up with her float at the first opportunity and bring him to my place. Maybe next week, when she is back from the Jousting Championship in Lardner Park.
I need another horse like a hole in my head, but that poor boy needs to be rescued. I am sure she hasn't had his feet done for over a year now, and there is no feed, and she feeds the two horses only ONE bale of hay per week!!!!
Wotan is the horse I had told you about, who has that deep fear of being ridden after a freak accident years ago.
He might be a good project to play with (Intrinzen and your approach).
His mother is my favourite American Saddlebred mare Scarlet, and his dad is Nattfari, an Icelandic stallion.
Why do I do this to myself all the time, hahaha....
oh but it sounds like he needs to come back to you - sounds like a great project lets hope you get him back soon though - it is really hard when that happens but he will be back with you soon
He is the little guy sitting at my side in the hayshed in the photo I posted on Human Horse Bond.
Has grown into a tall, big horse. I love his colour - a deep chocolate.
He was a sweetie when I owned him. Hope he has got wrecked too much in the meantime.
So good that I have Silke, my excellent barefoot trimmer, now. She should be able to get his feet back to soundsness.
I am sure he will remember you all and he will be very happy to come back to you. It is good you have a great trimmer. Mine is good, but I do most of the trimming and she just comes and tidys up My back wouldn't hold out, and I prefer to have it done by Silke. She is so good with it. Well I was trimming when I could not bend for years - one has to do what one has to when we could not get anyone as we got sacked all the time because no one could do Sharney LOL
When I had him here for a few weeks before I gave him away, we bonded beautifully, and he remembered me, for sure!
Yes, that's a pain when something like this happens. I have done it from time to time, but it always took me quite some time and agony
So happy that Silke agrees to do mine.
agreed*
May 30, 2019
Impossbile to ride yesterday with all that snowy rain etc. But this morning, I got one fitted in, yay. Carlotta danced along happily and offered PWs and once or twice a crunch. It was with neck, so I stretched out my dressage whip to the front and said "lift", and she did a little bit. Also did this during the PW, and she visibly lifted!
I don't like exexexex as keep going signal, so have started using "besser" which means "better" in german. This somehow goes smoothly from my tongue
After unsaddling, I took her to the arena for a couple of minutes. She stayed with me right away and was happy to perform a crunch, which was acceptable. Changed sides and asked again. Then back to the other side and said besser-besser-besser while she crunched, and she arched up a bit and kept it. Click and end of session.
yeah for you - hahahaha xxxxx is hard to wrap around the tongue but that was my SATS training and it eventually changed from sex sex sex to xxxx - it whatever works and yes whatever you use it works, giving them the feedback they need without extinction bursts
Well, your original version wouldn't appeal to a gelding...
No extinction bursts today, for sure.
Certainly looked promising today when she did that last one.
funny, it was very hard to say x without saying sex! it will come with the crunches - it already is so it wont be long, just remember to stay consistent
oh BTW can I use that little snip with the head turn with carlotta on your body target video - I am sick of through the videos to try and find allot and I wanted just a couple of a few second videos showing what can happen when we begin to work with autonomy - I am building the full on line course now, and I think I need to first mention a couple of things about autonomy
OK thanks for the video bit - I finally found some early PW with the noodle - I have all the crunches (but will probably grab a bit on showing what the neck is verses getting it out, as I did not really have the neck problem (that was because it was drilled into me early on), but just beginning from scratch - I think though the SATS leaving the pointer on might be useful too - I shall see when i get to it - what would be good would be to try and video your progression to get the neck out and lets see what we end up with.
June 1, 2019
This morning, I noticed her legs were not in alignement, so I said front leg, and she immediately moved it a bit!
actually I think there may be some good pool noodle ones with you also. thats great about the front leg - it is so much easier when we can do that It felt like gold when she did this!
You want it at liberty or under saddle?
no on the ground, this one is the one I am building for the early mastery
I have another lassie doing it the same way as you are and she is up to the PW now and it is great that between the two of you my content and suggestions as to what can happen so it is really good
I am going to enrol in the natural animal center behaviourist course - it provides you with accreditation and this will help 'sell' the courses as well - it is a +R methodology though but it looks good and will probably do the honours component with them as well - I had wanted to do this a while back when I was thinking of trying to get my doctorate in psychology but the only uni who would take me with a learning theory slant with equines was Qld and I was not prepared to travel (and pay the $$$) so at the moment the natural animal center has 50% off for the stage 1
Wow, sounds facinating! Fingers crossed that everything goes to plan!
Here is a very early of (January 18, i.e. 2 weeks into Intrinzen) of PW with the pool noodle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYZQtCn82Vk&t=186s
June 3, 2019
WIP crunches today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fh7iip3Vy_0&t=205s
Couldn't get a really good one, but she did try. She is gradually keeping her front feet together.
yes she is but I would personally not ask for a crunch until she does stand square (or certainly not click it - just say good girl and lets try again and then take less so there are no extinction bursts) - see at 4.46 - this is a good one to actually see the reason she is using her neck - you can almost see the energy at the front feet. it is not just keeping them together it is their position in relation to the shoulder thats why 4.46 shows it so well
Yes, you are so right. Somehow I always try so hard to do things right and then it doesn't work out. Or she is positioned correctly, and then doesn't lift.
But at least it gave you some examples of how not to do it....
think about how are her feet - if she crunches and the feet are not good thats fine, just smile and tell her great but ask for the feet to move a little, click and treat this and then ask again for the crunch. Oh you are funny - it is really not about how not to do it as so many have this problem, it is about how can we get this better
June 4, 2019
I hope we will eventually work it out... Will try again when it stops raining. The bummer is that she sometimes does really good ones and the camera isn't on
its always the way about the camera but the more this happens the more likely they will be good for the camera as well - even leave it for a couple of days - do something else and sometimes when you come back to it there is a huge change for whatever reason
Good idea! Yes, we often notice this - it's like the horses think about it overnight. A bit like I do when I wake up in the morning and play my riding sessions in my head. Maybe I should start doing this with the crunches too?
When I was flat on my back after the accident, I did this a lot and in great detail, and it had a positive impact on my riding
yes thats a great idea
The crunches are not what we want at the moment, as she leans back a bit when she goes into one. Not sure how to explain to her that I would like her to stay "in place". Only asked for 2 yesterday and 2 today. Maybe really not do it for several days...
it is good she is going so well - leave the crunches until you can film a couple and really see where her front feet are - it is helpful of you make sure she is side onto the camera and the see the angle. I am glad for you that Wotan is coming back soon - hopefully no more delays for the poor chappie - it will be good to begin him from 'scratch'
June 10, 2019
hahahaha it is so funny - I was going through some books this morning to make sure I had all I needed in the core posture section of the on line course and here we go again - Jec Ballou's corrective exercises book opens with speaking about parking brakes (she does not call them this but it is what she is saying) - is there nothing original in intrinzen? it seems NOT - so I dont feel near so bad now about calling the panther walk the panther walk
Hehehe... not the power walk anymore then?
the power walk is different - I finally got some video this morning to show how to begin it - not perfect but we can see what is happening. I am doing that now and then I need to scan a bit of a book for Marianne (my real guinea pig) and I will send it to you as well - it is a great explanation of what I am doing with the stuff that you saw with Sarah - of course it is my adaption but it is something I re-read the other day and I think I now have nearly the right adaption of somatic experiencing and the polyvagal theory - Star has been showing me the last couple of days and we have worked it out - start cue (as he has known that) crunch then the pad on crunch more - happy camper This morning was funny: when I brought the hay to their paddock, the horses were quite far away, but when they spotted me, they all came running: Wotan in a splendid extended trot, Valeta still slightly hobbling, but much better, and Princess Carlotta in her elevated show-off canter!
what happened to Valeta do you think? glad that Wotan seems happy. Carlotta is feeling good! In case you haven't seen the post on my timeline: Wotan jumped the fence the first day, to be with the girls, and some interaction must have taken place. I suppose Valeta got kicked in the shoulder, as she held her right leg stretched out straight and could barely walk. Second day was better and today it's even better. When I arrived, they were all happy together already, so no reason to separate them again. Even Carlotta has accepted him.
It clearly felt as if Wotan was saying: I am home now - all good! oh OK so good it is getting better - no I have not had allot of time to look through the feeds on fb recently
Have put a long update in Human Horse Bond, as everybdoy seemed keen to hear the development. Which is funny, as they don't know the horse.
One thing just occurred to me: Elmira (Haflinger), my first horse, had exactly the same colour as Wotan.
I dont access the horse human bond unless I am tagged - I am over the self righteousness of some of them to be honest and they get my back up so it is best I dont really see anything - but I was reading something yesterday there but it was about knocking clicker again so I did not really look any further hahahahaha - oh maybe all these things add up to Wotan staying!
t depends on how we will be going for grass and hay etc. Will wait and see. But if I need to find him a new home, I will be extra-careful this time!
well here is hoping that it is not too much of a burden - it sounds like he is meant to be with you
Don't twist my arm - will do whatever I can.
here is a bit of video of showing how I am trying to work a power walk
https://www.dropbox.com/s/19mag26npvo7sij/power%20walk%20beginning%20comp.mp4?dl=0
and here are the two chapters - scanning not great as only have a flatbed scanner but it is all readable
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/b5b2fro5a9ersgi/AACYSsIBmG4qaV2g9P5Hv_CCa?dl=0
June 13, 2019
Thanks a lot, will have a look tomorrow. Just came inside, after spending most of the day helping CJ (our 80 y.o. handyman) to build the extension of my horse shelter. So good to have it finished, with the horror weather announced for tomorrow evening and following day.
Quick video from this morning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Upq0C5A69kg I tried to take some of the riding, but had difficulties again with the camera position, so not even worth watching
Watched the power walk video. Something to get started on with Wotan? Or what else would you like me to try first with him?
you are still clicking for the neck - the first one was good but the second she lifted her neck and you kept going, so here take the pointer down and ask again rather than click through it. why did you then walk away? there was nothing to suggest that she was leaving you - but she was then confused as to why you walked away. So OK when you got back to crunches - think about it this way - ask and if she does not align her feet up then ask for her to align her feet and then ask again - lets try and make this her decision, as if we start with micro managing she will never 'think' for herself - make sense? I think that next one as far as I could see at 3.17 was good - you clicked before she got her neck into it - the next maybe a second too late with the click - maybe the strategy for you can be that you click earlier for a while before she gets her neck into it as the click for this one was using her neck (I think - hard to see with her being so dark) - it looks like you clicked at 3.37 - 3.36 maybe?
OK so the power walk comes after crunches and before PW - it is kind of like alex kurlands pose on a walk - Star does it allot and he gave me the idea as it makes him feel proud - as we need to get the 'lift' and we need the crunches first
so your homework is to ask for the crunch - do not click for any neck or legs in the wrong position (as she needs her legs right not to use the neck) - ask for front feet (leave the back feet for the moment) and then ask for a crunch again - if it is the neck she uses - ask again but then the next time click earlier - before she uses her neck for more effort
Packed-full day yesterday, and heavy rain all day long. Soo much fun when you are out shopping and each time you get back into the car, all the windows are damp and no visibility, so you have to wait until the ventilation kicks in again. Had to go to a dozen different places, so this was really annoying... And didn't find the darn fitted sheets I need
Anyway, back to horses. I admit I was guilty to click when she used her neck that first time, when I hadn't asked for crunch and she did it to greet/please me, so I didn't have the heart to ignore it. Yep, stupid of me to walk away when all was well - it didn't feel right when I did!
So when you say: ask her to align her feet, and if she doesn't, ask again etc. You mean that I just say "front leg" without any further intervention from me?
This might take a while. She does it from time to time, but not very often.
I thought that all four crunches (as small as they were) were good, will have to check again. Sorry it was so shady, was early in the morning. Might try again now, as it's later in the day and the sun is over the arena now.
I DO try to click earlier. sigh Working on myself.
Seems that the clicks I do come out somewhat delayed at times in the video. Will get back to you later.
yes just ask front leg - ask for the crunch then ask if she needs to align her legs and then crunch - this is SATS - if we are consistent with asking for this IF our horse does not do it when we crunch we will get it - but you have to let her see if she does it first and for a while click any choice she makes to move the leg - I can really only see her neck when it is used - it is just too dark - I can usually see when someone clicks though as I look at the reactions from the horse - some were really well timed
June 15, 2019
Now, that didn't work out well.... Got one short video where she is shwoing a beginning of SATS (moving her feet upon "fron leg"), and a couple of tiny attempts for crunches, but not good really. I tried again (after some problems with positioning the camera in a suitable spot and Carlotta staring towards the paddock where Wotan kept calling out for her), and she reacted better aleady and moved her feet quite nicely a few times and also did 2 or 3 promising crunches, but when I looked at the video it was all blurry, as I had forgotten to adjust the focus. Grrr....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYID2g7hi2c&feature=youtu.be
Ride was a bit animated, because of Wotan's vocal input and the rather strong wind, but she did her best
hahaha - I am just about to go and feed up - will try and look at it when I get back in otherwise before you are up in the am. wish the rain would come up here!
Happy to give you a bit, there were puddles on my arena ground today. Doesn't happen often. No hurry for the video. I am not happy with it (i.e. myself) anyway
June 16, 2019
OK so in the video you have walked over to her and asked her for the front leg. This is not the way I would recommend it as we have done with SATS now- we ask for a crunch and if our horse crunches with the legs out we ask then for the front leg - and crunch again WE DO NOT CLICK if the front leg is out in the crunch - this way our horse understands to crunch and get a click we have to have the front legs square. It looks like you are having no pleasure in what is happening here and she can feel this ....why not leave it for a while but I would love for you to get this order in your head and be confident and then maybe leave it and see what she is like in a couple of weeks? The click for her leg moving back was great but the need now is the 'connection' between front leg and crunch. what seems to be happening here is you are teaching her to lift her front leg (because there is no need for her to bring it back I guess)- this is going to cause you trouble later (and one of the reasons I dont like to overdo SATS) - NO CLICK if the legs are out in front (as this will make her use her neck) - ask crunch then if needed... front leg and then ask for crunch again in the new leg position . see at around 1.53 if we were real lucky and got a click in as she re positioned her front left leg it would be good (before she moved off LOL and she had a connection between the crunch and her standing position here) but I cannot see the reasons for the clicks after this though
I can see her legs are not positioned square in front yet you clicked her :-(I am sure accidentally. The next one was good as you waited - but you are not giving her any feedback - it looks to me as if she is not pleasing you - maybe it was not a good day for you - it sure was windy!. But if we are not excited and grateful it is not something she can be proud of - so the way it works for me is ask - crunch - legs are not good or using neck - smile - good....this is really great but front leg good crunch yes! click - but it is all enthusiastic and my tone acknowledges the try. the camera lighting here was allot better - dam about your second video though!
Thank you, Julie. Yes, correct, I was pretty upset by then about all the sh*t that had happened before, like trying half a dozen positions to find a place not too dark for filming, then Wotan keeping calling out and distracting Carlotta and other stuff. And then I couldn't get it right - yet again. Yeah, very frustrating. I should have stopped and waited for a better day. Poor Lotta. Oh, I hadn't understodd that I was supposed to ask for a crunch right away, even with legs out of position. OK, will bear that in mind in future.
Here are 2 vids I took this morning (in between showers, haha). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDnKcUNOV3A
OMG, yes, you are right, I am teaching her to lift her leg now. Aaargh! And asking for leg way too often. I should have waited for you post before trying again... But at least I am starting to do a few things better, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHc71pR8j-I
In this second one, while I was standing with her, I thought she was doing the crunch really well, but looking at it now, I notice that there is no real lifting and a bit of neck involved? Hm, yes, why not - I can give her a break from crunches. Would though like to give it one last try tomorrow, with your instructions in mind
Gosh, I feel like such a slow learner here. An experience very new to me gnnnnn
Oh just noticed that I missed a beautiful back lift atr 2.23 in the first video!
it is great you are challenging me to come up with different explanations - it is good! now the first video showed some really great crunches with no neck - even though you did not adjust her legs you were able to get the neck out - but you are surprising me with more information I will need to make clear in the course - see the crunch at 2.22 - you were right not to click it BUT ask again by adjusting what needs to happen - you see even though you did not click and treat you rewarded it by the PW hahahahahaha - whats the leg lifting for again?? now with the bunny hops I was only telling marrianne this morning we need to make this without the neck also - move forward with your pointer when this happens to try and turn this into a canter depart with no neck - I am going to try and tape this with Star to show what I mean
in the second video - OK so front leg - see how she is lifting rather than placing - yes she is still stretching back rather than lifting and then stretching back - dont click this - wait and ask again but remember to remind her about the wither - take little muscle movements there with her new leg position - yes the 2.23 in the first video was great with the core but of course there was neck in it as well - so we know she can do it
June 16, 2019
I wanted to get it right at least once, so before rugging her tonight, I asked her for a crunch (legs not in perfect position) and of course, she used her neck a bit, so I said front leg, and after a second, she calmly adjusted her leg. Asked for crunch again, and when she started doing it, I clicked very quickly, before she could rock back.
Went to other side, asked for crunch, and she started to rock back slightly, but then came forward quickly again and arched her neck beuatifull. CT and big, enthusiastic praise.
sounds PERFECT and fantastic
And when I try to get it on video now, it will not work out, hahaha.
it will eventually - dont worry about that as the more consistent it gets the more likely you will capture it
True. wasn't bad this morning, not as good as yesterday, but I am quite happy with it. She seemed to make the connection between "front leg" and crunch and I havew the feeling that she is becoming happier with it, as it is beginning to become old hat, sortof
yep thats what we want
Video is loading, will send it when done. Bugga, I clicked her again for leaning back once...
it will happen sometimes - see what seems to happen is that when we give our horse the control to move the feet back more autonomy and mastery seems to develop - the only way I can see how to do this is we begin with SATS then we make sure we dont over do it - and then ask for front feet and not click the crunch with the feet out - the more we can get consistent with this the HUGE shifts seem to happen - I am just trying now to put both the polyvagal and the somatic experiencing into words that are not confusing - trying to dumb it down is so hard - but it is nearly there and I think I can then move on and finesse the rest which is nearly all finished anyway - BUT your experiences are making it really easy for me to figure out what to say. Also too this developed when Star nickered the first time he managed to do this himself - he gives me so many hints hahahaha
I am happy I can contribute a bit to this, Julie. Yes, the first happy nickering about accomplishment is such a Eureka moment, also for the human. Will get started with Wotan soon. He has been here for a week now and feels completely at home already.
Poor Valeta is so jealous when he starts throwing bow after bow on me when I arrive. I wouldn't be surprised if she copied him soon on this
Glad you will put all this scientific stuff into simple words, so people like me can understand it
how great that everything though that the horses are enjoying it all
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW0p0W2TSYo&feature=youtu.be
explain to me the lift with the first click - is this something you want her to do? I would have clicked that foot at 1.14 oh you did but too late LOL. When she tries and her feet are ok bring attention to her wither to help her understand. The next two were PERFECT - not so much at 2.11 but so much better. I would have left it after the first two really good ones and gone for a run to be honest - drilling does not help she did a great job so leave it for another day (greedy greedy).OK now at 2.31 I see now what is happening - your hand for the 'lift' with the finger movement is actually the cue her neck is responding to. Yes a good one at 2.43 - see you did not use your fingers? (that I could see) - so lets make sure of this touch at the withers for the lift and keep your hand still but use your body (belly button to the spine and lift your chest)
Hahahah, yes, I know, I know.... Really should have stopped after those 2 good ones. That little nagging voice inside told me!
no I may have missed your cue if you did stop! but tell me about this 'jump'?
Agreed about 1:14. Yes, 2:11 was too rocked back. But I thought it was small enough, so I should click anyway. Is it a bad thing to curl my fingers? I did it sortof inadvertantly. I think that the arm and finger movement is cueing her using her neck 2:43 is the best one, I think? I didn't use my fingers. see she actually raises her neck with the timing of your fingers
yes thats what I said 2.43 was good and you were not using your fingers
OK, will do. But crunching myself is soo hard to me...
Jump? At 0:37? I just thought it was cute, so clicked for it
oh get the bodyfx starter videos LOL - you will learn to crunch with them. OK so what I do is sweep under my boobs in an upward motion as if I am lifting my boobs to raise my chest. So the jump was all neck that was what I was questioning - move forward as she does this - I am actually going to video this for marianne and I think a lassie on the community needs it also - the frost here was bad this morning so tomorrow if there is no frost - I worry about slips I can do crunches, but I find it pretty hard to do it repeatedly. And I usually do them during the sessions. Maybe not very visible with that thick jacket.
thats why this is really good - they do so many and it really tunes my crunches OK, sorry. fogot about the asking forward again when she does skips. One day I will actually remember to do it
there is a free one there on 10 min abs - try it
https://bodyfx.tv/free-workouts/
Yeah, be careful with slippery ground. it is getting her neck out of the jump Next time, promised! (I hope!)
Thanks, will check the vids.
hahahaha! honestly though try the 10 min ab one - I do these now every day (with alternating with the paid ones) and I have never walked better - it has freed my hip allot
Okeydokey. Just can't bring myself to it right now - am quite pooped from Pilates - Helen gave me all those strenuous tasks today...
HAd a look at the 10 min abs. You mean the one with the leading girl in the pink bra and all the others girls in white bras, right?
Geeez.... How does this help with crunches?
May try it tomorrow.
yep - crunches gallore! ab work is crunches
June 18, 2019
Another lovely trail ride with Chris today, a bit over an hour. Through the forest and down Savage Hill Road.
Carlotta hiding behind Sparky's bum on the way out and then very keen to motor along in front on the way home :-D
Sparky, in his long winter woolies, had sweaty curls and was, at times, huffing and puffing, poor little fella. While Carlotta, in her short coat, was just slightly moist here and there.
We made it home just in time, and 5 minutes later, Silke arrived, ready to give my guys their trim. Was the first one for Wotan. I had tied him to the rail and he got a fright from something and freaked out, but came back to normal shortly afterwards. So I held him by the leadrope, for more confidence.
He behaved pretty well, a bit insecure here and there, but Silke is so positive and patient that it all went smoothly and Wotan simmered down very quickly with a deep, relieved sigh.
Silke took off a lot from his hooves, that were in much need for a trim. Looked very nice, once finished, and Wotan trotted off proudly and freely.
June 19, 2019
Gosh, was so difficult to squeeze a little ride in today. Waited until 4 pm, then got grimly determined. Just when I was about to get on, the rain started again. So Carlotta patiently stood at the mounting block at my side, and as soon as the rain became lighter, up I went.
Carlotta braved her way through all the puddles in the arena - this doesn't happy often, it usually doesn't get wet.
At the end, we practised walking sideways along a pole. On the third try, she suddenly did it beautifully. Jackpot and end of session.
Julie's explanation about SE:
It is based on trauma informed principles,we build assets for our horse that make him or her her feel proud, confident and masterful to help the ventral vagal circuit of the nervous system run the show - but to be able to do this we have to have the social engagement system enlivened so that is where the human comes in as a secure base. For Star - core posture crunches and his panther walk make him feel very proud and I also believe the click does this for him also. We use these things to help him move forward - give him the power feel he can do it. We also want him to learn to become resilient when he feels any apprehension and his ventral vagal takes a dive. We want him to not feel panicked when he feels unsettled and can release the nervous energy - as it is in not releasing this nervous energy that we see horses (and us) spook at every sound - they always feel on edge. So from the somatic experiencing perspective we spend time taking very very small steps forward and then stop to give the horse time to release the energy that may have built up - as what goes up must come down so our horse (in the face of anxiety) feels comfortable in releasing the built up energy. We see this in the form of calming signs etc. At the time we are taking small steps forward we encourage our horse to use the assets that he or she has to help them feel proud - it is like "I GOT THIS". It has become very empowering for Star and I feel for me as well (as there is always that thing at the back of your mind with horses who are afraid of things). This focus is contained in the equine assisted therapy training and there are a number of organisations that now offer this for human but from my perspective we are just learning how this can all be applied to horses who have fear (rather than humans who have fear). this was the video series that Sarah did with me (and Star) that begun this in earnest for me .
June 22, 2019
isis this dumbed down enough?
intro course.docx
First try SATS with Wotan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOcGedIAuB4&feature=youtu.be
There are two previous ones with him where we just get acquainted, can post if you wish. yes please send me them all!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcGU416evzc&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5a2xmgIbkY&https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5a2xmgIbkY&
June 23, 2019
the second one first - as this is first in time? mmm I personally would not introduce the flag this way and I never use the clicker for issues around anxiety - there are too many risks that the click can become poisoned - it seems from the first click that he has not heard it before or it now takes on a new meaning. I am a little confused with what I am seeing - you know that we want to provide autonomy- he is leaving you and wants to be away from you (I think the flag it the problem not you) but you are moving after him? the second click was the same - he does not know what it means in this context and you begin to approach and he wants none of it. yea when you click for his head down it is really submission and helplessness you are clicking for - I think first you need to work out how you want him to be going - do you want him to be autonomous or perhaps you dont really want to put the training into him because he cannot stay with you? the clicks you are using are not what I would personally do as he has no desire to be part of this with the flag and he is telling you in a very gentlemanly manner that he is worried and anxious and I personally would not be using the clicker here - can you see he keeps moving away? he wants distance from you (and or maybe just the flag - but it will turn into you as well here - see he moves quickly away when he gets a treat from you?). I will look at the others in case this was just a one off and then we know it is the flag
the noodle is starting the same way - now you have not really wanted him to engage his SEEKING here and this will turn into the same thing as has happened with Carlotta and the mat - he has to have the time to work out what this is all about and know it wont eat him - we cannot use the clicker here for the same reasons as the flag - he is unsure of himself and we are marking anxiety emotions with the clicker - this is confusing for our horse - we cannot click our way through this IMO. These head downs are not purposeful - they are instinctual as he is anxious here - there has been quite allot of-R and punishment in his previous training by the looks of it - much natural horsemanship or other dominance reduction methods. He is not responding to the noodle in any good way here unfortunately and he is reacting as if he does not move his feet pressure will be escalated. It was nice to see you put the noodle down and can you see how his demeanour changed and that click through the labyrinth was acknowledged by him as relevant and did not attach anxiety (well there is still some there but not allot) - can you see the difference in him here as compared to all that leads up to this (so from 2 mins back?). Try not to get into habits that we want to change later - so the head turning (for a crunch??) LOL Here I would use the labyrinth to your advantage and stand him where the poles are behind his back legs and then ask for a crunch and as soon as there is a shift up with any muscle as he feels the wood click and treat and get those cues working. As soon as you pick up the noddle he leaves you - and can you see that his reaction to the clicker changes? so you need to think about what you want to do here with him - I can help you but we have to treat his anxiety first - and there is allot of autonomy work to do as we need to undo the expectations of consequences he seems to have - can you see the difference in him comparing the times you have the noodle to the times you are just engaging with him?
Is there a chance the rope halter can go? Personally I dont like them in any event but there is now so much evidence as to the damage that the pressure points to do the sensitive nerve areas on the head and his is done up very tight - not everyone accepts this of course and I dont judge you as I know you would not believe this to be true as you would not use them if you did. But the rope halters are things that I wont condone for me personally so I cannot use examples with one on if there was some video I would love to ask to use.
now the SATS - I am holding my breath here LOL as I feel that he has previous negative associations with the whip - and yep his first thought is to go in circles in submission - but can you see you did not follow him here and stood (maybe your mind was on the car going past but it made you stand LOL) - and see what he did - he looked to you and approached? that was great! That jumpiness at .31 is because he is anxious - he has not been able to release the stress so it accumulates . Although he is not really that reactionary I feel he is not holding it together as he is moving allot around you and moves after you touch him with the whip but unfortunately we are pairing this with a click and treat and I would not recommend it - so maybe we can work out something other than the whip we can use for him here as there are very clear negative experiences with it in the past - BUT this does get better though and this is good - and you are very supportive of him during this process - great to hear you speak to him - I am not sure why you are not using the pointer though but I feel we would need a few things to be going on before this also - now I also have some smaller pool noodle squirters - they open up to about a 1/2 metre but are long enough to do this with. Do you want me to send you one? I would love to do the whole thing with him (less the rope halter) but do you want to? if you do then we need to work on autonomy first as he needs to be confident that he can tell you when he is anxious - see in the videos he is telling you but we are not letting him know we are listening - so the things I would change for the moment are not to use anything that may have a negative (submission) connotation to it - so whips are out. We need to activate his seeking system and I would begin this with a full pool noodle (not one attached to a stick) and I would place it on the ground and allow him to explore it (not click him through it) and then we need to try and use this to begin to help him understand that we will listen to his body language....THEN we can begin SATS - what do you think? I would LOVE to see him turn into a confident boy - I feel so sad for him
June 23, 2019
Thank you for all the feedback. Will try to explain about him: I had bought him from Chris (Narrawin Stud), when he was 6 months old, as my future riding horse. I loved his dam and would have bought her, had she not had that unsurmountable fear of being floated. I worked on it for ages, but never any really lasting success. She was a delightful mare (American Saddlebred). His sire is a very quiet, laid-back Icelandic, who is now gelded and lives with our friend Margaret near Wangaratta. I loved to ride him while he belonged to Chris, a true sofa!
Wotan did very well when we started him under saddle at around 4 1/2
http://www.lemis.com/yvonne/photos/photos.php?keywords=Wotan
He was always a bit anxious, so we did a lot of gentle, careful preparation. But came good and went beautifully under saddle, until the... moment.
I then gave him to a rescue organisation who placed him with people. But he came back several times, couldn't find out why. In the end I took him back and gave him to Julie here in Dereel, because at the time I had Keldan who didn't tolerate him at all. He lived with a pony there, but didn't get any other care than just feeding him grass and sometimes a bit of hay. So, he is back here now. Don't know what happened with his various "owners", but already 3 years ago, he seemed to be so happy to be back with me. And I have the same feeling now. He always comes to me immediately when I enter the paddock, sometimes nickers softly and puts his head against me. Which means I have Valeta and him always close by
When I took him to the arena yesterday, I thought I'd give him a little refresher, just showing him the tools and see what he thought. I noticed that he felt somewhat anxious, but thought it wasn't a big deal really, as after walking off a bit, he almost all the time came back to me very quickly. So apparently I completely misjudged the situation.
I am not sure whether I am doing him a favour when I teach him to be autonomous, bearing in mind that it is not very likely that I can keep him in the long run, due to my situation. I think his poor little heart broke a few times when he had to change places so often.
So, what do we do? In between all this depressing frustration, I had a lovely moment with Carlotta this morning. At one stage, she suddenly rounded her poll beautifully and cantered off in the most beautiful, collected way. I praised her enthusiastically and dismounted. She visibly scratched her head: What have I done that was so good?
Watching my videos now. I can see what you mean in vid 1: I am actually driving him with that flag instead of giving him space and time. Bummer that I always feel that I have to DO something!
You are right: he is a true gentleman and so very polite.
OK, will grab a poolnoodle at Chris' place. I had given them all to her, as I don't like the things, but if we need to use one for the seeking process, then be it.
What are pool noodle squirters? I have built a smaller device which is about 1 metre long. It is a plastic tube with a piece of poolnoodle at one end. Would that be suitable, or better leave out any of those until he has become more confident?
Yes, he seems to like the labyrinth and always wanted to wander through it and didn't seem worried to stop anywhere inside or near. And yes, I quasi automatically asked for a crunch, LOL.
You are right - the difference between with and without flag/whip/noodle is spectacular. So I will put all this aside and just interact with him for now. And not click so much, but rather slow down my own energy and expactations and allow him to build up his confidence.
Maybe not even take the bumbag with me?
Sure, I can take the rope halter off during our sessions, no problem at all.
You are so right about his anxiety and not being able to get rid of his inner tension. He had a very jumpy moment when he met my hoof trimmer the other day, but came out of it very quickly. Silke is a very calm, sweet person and took her time with him.
It is easy to forget about his issues, because he is so very willing to please and tries so hard to stay with me and see what I want.
So, if you are not too unnerved by me not getting it again and again (hahaha), Yes, I am happy to go through the process under your direction and let's see whether we can make him a happy chappy. After all, it did work with Carlotta, despite everything I messed up during the process
I would so love to see him happy and relaxed.
Maybe I will go out this afternoon and film another little session for you. What do you think of bringing him into the arena together with Valeta a bit later? She is so very confident that maybe it would help him? Not right away, of course.
If Wotan had bad experiences with the whip etc, it must have been with the other owners, certainly not with us. You never know what people do to horses when nobody is looking
I didn't bring out the pointer, as I thought there were enough tools already as it was. But maybe it had been a lot more productive to use the pointer instead...
June 23, 2019
he can be helped and autonomy is very important to have because it allows him to express himself and then the nervous energy can expel. that sounds great with Carlotta! what we want is something that does not resemble a stick and we cant drive (so it cannot feel like a driving stick to you) the noodle squirter is a water toy it does not extend allot but I have a couple here still . I would go back to basics - begin with clicker training again and use something like a noodle but put it on the ground and let him explore it and then begin by targeting and then moving with it - no I would have the bum bag for sure as he can get confidence even with walking over the labyrinth. I would try with him only and use the Labyrinth as inspiration and if he is nervous the nervous energy has to come down -if it takes a while then give him a rub where ever he loves it and then wait - slowly does it and our aim for a while is for him to feel confident to express himself - slow and gentle for sure and short sessions
I relocated the labyrinth further away from the pedestal, so more room around. I hope you will like todays's session. Still uploading at the moment. He had a much calmer feel around him today and we even got little beginnings of crunches!
looking forward to seeing it!
Here you go. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKl5IdSt02Y&feature=youtu.be
June 24, 2019
this is looking really good - now with beginning the crunches ask for him to lift at the chest a little - we cant free shape them as it would take years - but personally you could get that noodle up and use it too he went straight over to it and does not associate it with a whip, but he is fine with the pointer so SATS first for me - see at 4.17 - perfect wait - see how he released a little energy in the licking and chewing there - thats my view - he is playing with the noodle stick here for a click and treat - see how he does something and then waits for your response - no need to SEEK here as this is not an issue for him I would go with him and be guided with what he wants to do and to click and treat. The waits are really hard to do but they only happen a couple of times - and you are going really well - just make sure when you are doing your own thing you are actually internally consumed by your thing and not what he is doing - so much easier to say than do I know AND DAMM you are out of the picture at 9.05 - that was a perfect one - it is really good and so much better for him than the first one dont you think. I would personally do SATS now (remember not to nag and remember it is quick) - just a minute or so on front feet shoulders and chest (leave the back ones for now) and if possible I would remain neaw the lanyrinth as it is a secure base for him - see he is confident over this and probably the last time this was used was when he was with you last so there are no negative consequences to it and I can also see you are a secure base here for him as well
I really want to see whether the tweaks I have made to beginning crunches work better - so you need to do this for me LOL (no pressure I will find someone else if you dont) - so SATS legs and chest and then chest and add a verbal cue - maybe 'lift' and cue lift with your body and then bring attention to the wither area (and if need be have the back legs in front of the wood) and go for it - clicking and treating the smallest muscle movement in the core area. Then we need to work on the legs before the neck gets to be a habit
Aaah, love your feedback, yay! Happy to do it for you. Will try to get it sorted. Will try to get the lift cue for the chest right, so he can do it right from the start. Will grab camera now and give it a go for you.
it wont happen in one day though so just focus on SATS but dont over do it and go do something that is fun for him - it would be good to see what tweaks we need to still do to it Uploading video right now.
Yes, trying to keep sessions short! Still fumbling with an appropriate spot for camera.
Did some canter work with Lotta, but she wasn't in the mood to give me her super canter today. Not really surprising as usually it happens once, and then they take a while to process, before they offer it again.
haha
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJ0m9hdpXJ4&feature=youtu.be
Looks like I touched his chest for too long when asking for crunch. And sorry about the bad positioning of camera - this is difficult! I think there are one or two good snippets though. Or would you like me to repeat and try to do it better tomorrow?
Carlotta didn't want to do her beautiful canter today - she must have felt my deterination to get it for the camera
I am just about to feed up will try and look at it when I get back in...horses are so camera shy!
How do you like her posture in the PW from 8:10?
I think here is about the best position I can find for the camera. Only will need to remember to ride her about a meter away from the left fence to have her in the picture. She is a clown: she knows that labyrinth back and forth, but the fact that it had moved a few metres made it suspicious
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MamVCCtHjdc&feature=youtu.be
hahaha - internet is slow as now so tomorrow before you get up - the stream is doing nothing! Tough luck, haha.
Oh forgot: after the ride, I asked Carlotta for 2 "front leg", followed by "lift". The second crunch was just beautiful!
June 25, 2019
with Wotan this was good, so dont drill that now, just do a couple each time - when you began to ask for the chest and a lift I thought there were a couple of tiny rises - so remember at first in crunches we are really clicking for muscle movements I think you may find that these are there next time. Yeah Carlottas posture looks good - the camera is in a better place there, shame there is not a wider angle great that there was a good crunch too!
Yes, Wotan offered some very small muscle movements. I missed the first one at one stage, but he repeated, so I could click the second one.
OK, will stick to just a couple per session
Yes, there were some tiny rises, that's when I burst into all these praises
With Carlotta, I am now working on walk-canter-walk transitions. She finds this difficult, but I help her with voice cues, so this started to show effect today. I only click canters where she doesn't use her neck now.
Cute how she was starting to be very attentive to my upcoming cues today. I asked for like 3 or 4 steps of canter, than back to walk, then canter again, and she got the idea very quickly. She did lots of PWs today, felt like releasing tension to me. It was quite a job after all to figure this out.
sounds wonderful and you are going so well!
About time, eh?
it takes the time it takes and when it happens we know the journey is worth it!
Uploading today's vids now, with a wide-angle lense I borrowed from Greg. At the end, I have set it in the corner which seemed best and walked the whole arena. Looks like I can use about 4/5ths of it, with the pedestal as limit point.
Have done a couple of SATs and crunches with Wotan, then proceeded to targeting the short noodle stick.
He wanted to carry on after this, so I got the mat out and let him have a look. Let me know whether my approach was correct.
Will be later this afternoon. Will send them as soon as finished.
great - it sounds like the wider angle is better for you - sure about the mat - will try and watch later when it comes through - I have been battling the flu the last couple of days and I think finally it is going to break I hope - I wish it would get worse rather than just 'sitting' there not really a flu but not really myself
Yep - better you get it and then it will be finished, instead of it lingering around for ages. It was a spontaneous gut decision about the mat, so will see what you think about it. I had thought bringing Valeta in as well, but better give Wotan the time to work it out by himself... or drop the idea for now.
So, here are the videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyaUlJQlbiU&feature=youtu.be Sorry it's blurry, just sending it for documentation purposes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e38mPR7tosY&feature=youtu.be
And this one for the best angle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JONiLI5bDo&feature=youtu.be
so careful how you are feeding - take the treats to him not let him take from your body. So also be careful you are not just getting him to follow the target - you are doing your PW - so if you want this now then let him target the noodle with his knee - although I think it is time for crunches - see we dont want him to do allot of targeting - he is fine following your lead now - so time to do some 'work' - that was great how you let him work out to come to you DAMM that the film is blury LOL - but at least we have the angle right. So with him wanting to always take that right leg forward near the wood - lets take advantage of this and go to targeting the noodle with the leg. But it was really nice - now it is time to move on. slowly but lets now really get serious with starting crunches - just a couple of minutes - will look at the rest tomorrow morning
Yes, I know about feeding positions. It's not an issue with Carlotta and Wotan, they are both super polite.
Yeah I was grinding my teeth too about it being blurry. That lens is a bit of a pain, as with my camera it takes several seconds to adjust the focus. But once I knew about it, it was OK. Thanks for the refresher about letting him target the noodle with his knee, will do.
OK, crunches it is now, promised
Tonight, after rugging, I asked Carlotta for 2 crunches again. She stood nicely aligned, and I said "front leg" and she gave me a dirty look, then stomped her foot, as to say: my feet are all in place, dangit. Then did a lovely crunch. Asked again, and again she stomped, then did another good one. So, a question that might be of general interest for your students: bearing in mind that we want a connection between feet and crunches, do we say front leg, even if the feet are in good position? Or do we, in this case, just ask for crunch?
June 26, 2019
hahahaha - no we only say front leg when we need it to be moved - that shows she knows LOL
the feeding position is very important - it really is not about being polite only it is about being safe - a no 1 rule is to ensure that the treat comes to the horse - not the horse to the treat
hahahaha the mat was not amusing for him verses what was ever outside the arena
I thought you would be amused by my question. Lotta really made sure to let me know that she knew exactly what she had to do.
Wotan seemed a bit worried by the mat, though interested enough to have a think about it. Should I carry on or wait a bit?
Yep, it was his girls who called him from the paddock, and that was much more fascinating of course. I also had the dogs running around in the front garden, i.e. close to the arena, so that was another entertainment for him.
I would have the mat there now and again and use it for yourself and see what he does.
Yes see what happens with Valeta as well LOL - the flu felt like it was breaking mid morning but it seems to have come back - hopefully near the end - it is so hard as I feel like shit in the morning and as I get up so early by the time today it felt fine I was tired hahahahaha
June 27, 2019
yep so far so good - with Wotan - can we change the order - I want to try something - so SATS (just a minute or so now) and then the power walk (stretch and then lift - initially click for stretch and click for lift and when the cues are established then put them together before the click but use a keep going signal) - crunch AFTER we do the power walk - make sense?
Will try, Julie. Better dig out that video of you and Star (or was it Sharney) demonstrating this. Not sure whether we can get this sorted all in one session, haven't tried Power Walk before.
I will send you the link again - I think the power walk may help with crunches without the neck
Oh thank you, saves me a lot of scrolling back
https://www.dropbox.com/s/19mag26npvo7sij/power%20walk%20beginning%20comp.mp4?dl=0
OK so initially we want forward stretch with the pointer and click and treat this - a couple of times - when we are getting the hang of this we want then to use the pointer up towards the SATS mark and as soon as we feel that the shoulders rise we click and treat this - add your cues to each as well and then we begin to put them both together - it will take a couple of days but there should be no extinction bursts when we put them together I hope
OK, as soon as I have digested my brekkie, will go out and give it a go
With or without leadrope in the beginning?
without if you can - I tend to use the leadrope if the grass is more attractive
And the wide angle on the side of arena wasn't such a good idea, as we kept dropping out of the picture. Sorry. This takes a lot of fumbling to get it right...
hahahaha - well we shall see but how did it go?
Not quite as planned, but see yourself.
This is a short one which I took after the first one, and we are trying our hands/hooves on preparing Panther Walk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmspXax8Bco&feature=youtu.be
Here is my riding vid, maybe interesting for you in the beginning, where I ask Carlotta for a couple of crunches before getting on:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmp7q4ScaZU&feature=youtu.be
Will post the one with SATS and PW in about an hour, when it's finished.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR9_h1tS15c&feature=youtu.be
June 28, 2019
she is still using her neck not as much but she is and allot has to do now with her hinds hanging behind - she does not seem to have good standing posture as an automatic thing, so just remember that her default is not a square posture (like most horses) - have a look at this with the 'order' of what she moves when she crunches - if you like I will slow it down for you (neck leads high - try and crunch for yourself and start the crunch with your neck
I crunch myself, Julie, (um, most of the time), but due to my osteoporosis hunch, it's barely visible.
OK, we need to work on the hind legs now.
Yes, slow motion would be nice.
Sometimes, she does really good ones, lifting her back, but of course, then the camera usually isn't present
Oh, and do you have another possibility (than Microsoft) to send me your draft? I tried to download it yesterday, and of course had difficulties, so called Greg for help. And he grumbled and said he would try from his computer, but haven't heard anything yet.
If you have something I can see directly, that would be great. Would save me to have to deal with an... unwilling husband
Let me know what you want changed for the next session with Wotan. Will try to squeeze one in this arvo, as there is heavy rain on the way, as it seems.
the SATS click is as or as soon as you can after touching the leg - you are leaving the click a little too long and this is shaping whatever is happening to the head. The lift is at the chest not at the neck - but it was only supposed to be very short - a couple stretch click and treat stretch click and treat and when that seems good then we go to the chest, But good click at 5.13 thats what we want - just walk and when she comes ask for stretch down and then click and treat- I can see there were other things happening but you have to try and keep these sessions allot shorter - only a couple of minutes - this as you recall was what got Carlotta motivated (when you kept them short). But you are doing an awful lot of clicking for I am not really sure what - the click tells our horse whatever they did we want them to repeat - so think about what the click is meaning to you when you click for normal things that he really does not need any reinforcement for (e.g. 7.17 ish and then into the 7.30....for touching the wood?) yes good click at 9.05 - the one before that was dicey LOL - we want that head down - 3-4 thats it finish. we need this on cue first - watch you dont become inconsistent here - that click at 9.28 was not warranted (nor 10.05)- the head down and walk is - if you start clicking for something less you will get yourself into a jam. after that you began to really push it - first it was too long, second you changed your cue from walking and stretching the stick out, to you trying to ask him to panther walk and you bent down - a good one at 10.58 - see you changed your cue again but it was a target down - I suspect that if you were speaking about what you were feeling at that moment you would have said you were thinking Wotan follow the target down! thats great - that is your inside voice cue - nothing more, nothing less
no I use microsoft and wont use anything else. I can copy and paste here if that works for you so just a couple SATS and try and click earlier - touch front leg click (FAST) or click when you say front leg - a couple of nice head down ones, on a cue stretch or whatever you prefer and then thats all.
OK but it is just a draft - the idea is whether I have dumbed down the Sarah stuff enough
Introduction
Using specific movement activities your horse can travel a path of confidence, mastery and proudness. We are not classical trainers and we are not looking for physical perfection in movement, but we do want safe and masterful movement. This movement needs to extrude confidence and pride that causes no harm to our horses, and such that can be used to find courage in the moment if it arises, or pleasure when we are interacting. This is the purpose of this online workshop â to help you teach those movements to your horse.
In order to feel confident and proud our horse must rely on us to listen and act when he or she shows us their emotions. Well one step back from this â our horse must feel he or she can show us their emotions first and they can only do this if they have autonomy. A horse who is not autonomous will often guard themselves and not show their human how they are sensing experiences. Furthermore, with this work we need to be our horseâs secure base which means that he or she must regard us as âsecureâ and âsafeâ.
Autonomy may mean something different to you than it will to usâ¦and thatâs OK. So, let us better explain how we see it;
To feel safe enough in our presence to show us their emotions: It is very important in this work that our horse feels confident to use their body language to communicate with us. If we consistently âlistenâ to our horse, reading their body language and correcting our path if this is needed, our horse will develop the confidence to communicate with us.
Freedom of choice. Now some folks get a little worried when they hear this; what does this mean? It does NOT mean allowing our horse to run away from their dentals, their veterinarian or their trimmer, or even eat a batch of fresh spring or autumn grass if that could lead to problems. To us it means that in a non-urgent husbandry situation our horse has a choice to participate with us. It is when we give them choices, emotional or physical blocks that our horse had, slowly begin to release.
The right to be independent to experiment as much as possible: In training we do not want to control our horsesâ movements through micro shaping if we can help it. Yes, we are clicker trainers, and we use the clicker to help our horse feel confident in his or her choices when experimenting and to let us know what feels good for them. An autonomous horse will show us what they love to do and then we will work on whatever they are showing us and try and shape cleaner movement when needed. This may mean us changing plans and working on something that we did not expect â just go with the flow.
We try and free shape as much as possible. But saying this we will step in at times and guide our horse towards a better carrying posture or teach something that leads to better posture when this is needed. In those times as much as possible we will work at liberty with an open gate that provides our horse the opportunity to leave if he or she desires.
There is an inner voice that warns me to look closely at a horse when someone says âweâ work at liberty and our gate is open and if our horse does not want to engage then our horse can just leave. Because this may not always be the case as liberty work may just be work without tack and that is not achieving authentic liberty.
Horses respond to consequences. They learn quickly âwhat happens nextâ and they will usually try to be obliging rather than pick a fight with us. So, if our horse leaves us in the liberty area and we âforceâ our horse to come back, then soon our horse learns if he or she leaves we will apply pressure to make them to stay with usâ¦so they stay. This is not liberty as our intention is not true and our horse has no real choice to leave if he or she desires to. This can also ring true with some movements we see horses perform âat libertyâ. Was that horse taught with only +R or was the horse taught with -R (pressure and release) and when the movements are complete, we then take off the lead rope of cavesson and add a clicker? This discussion is best left for another day though. What we aim for is +R with autonomy during training and this is what we will be working with during this workshop.
If we respect our horseâs autonomy and freedom of expression our horse will begin to show us how they feel. When this happens, it is our job to notice the tiniest of tries and show our horse we are listening. When we are provided the opportunity to see just how our horse is feeling, it is then our responsibility to help our horse change things if the emotion is negative or work out how to sustain positive emotions.
Why have we created this workshop?
Over recent years we have noticed positive changes in horses (and their humans) who we have had the pleasure to help. We are often asked to help work through fears or anxiety and because of the way in which we currently structure movement tasks with our horses and we have found that horses are using those movements for themselves in times when they feel anxious. In turn they are becoming more masterful and confident. Other horses who do not have any specific anxiety issues become more confident and masterful as well.
So, we set out on a journey to try and understand just how we can reconcile what we were seeing and hearing with the literature. We do believe in Constructional Approach Training for Horses (CAT), but as soon as our horse feels confident enough to approach, we believe that the added extras we now use serve as the âmissing linkâ in our training and interactions with our horses.
What is the missing link?
We did not have allot of success finding the answers to our questions in the equine literature, so we went to the human literature and found a wealth of material that made sense to us. Specifically, we found answers from Stephen Porges (polyvagal theory) and Peter Levine (Somatic Experiencing model of trauma recovery). We then put our learning to the test and Sarah Schlote (who is a Somatic Experiencing practitioner) saw a short video of our interpretation of the literature and created a video series. You can access the series here: https://equusoma.com/somatic-experiencing-for-horses/
Do pic and have link in pic and videos here
If you managed to get through the videos from Equusoma well done! They are long and the theory is a little dense. We are not seeking here to go over that information in any detail. But rather we want to focus here on why we feel our work contributes to confidence and pride. So, I will highlight some of the important reasons from the literature as to why we do what we do before we get into it:
Horses express themselves through their bodies and we can then interpret our horseâs emotions. There is of course more than one meaning to each piece of language. The best advice we can offer is take what you can away from the literature and blogs that we read but context is important as is your knowledge of your own horse.
This emotional language is controlled primarily by the autonomic nervous system. Importantly, the autonomic nervous system supports our horse in times of both proudness but also in times of anxiety. We want to respect the autonomic nervous system when encouraging our horse to feel masterful in mind, body and soul AND we want our horse to come out âat the other endâ of an anxiety experience with no negative residual effects.
The Polyvagal theory
Our journey begins with the polyvagal theory which will help us understand the autonomic nervous system in the context of mastery. Unfortunately, many training systems still advocate for the very outdated two system nervous system model (the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems). But evidence is clear that there are three different energy subsystems that impact the autonomic nervous system:
1. The most primitive system has the job to immobilise; it allows our horse to conserve metabolic functioning and in some cases our horse may even shutdown (freeze) â the target here are the internal organs. It is a branch of the parasympathetic nervous system. This system is also influential when our horse is relaxed, sleeping, and during most body work â what makes these experiences pleasant for our horse is the interaction of the social engagement system.
2. The next in evolutionary development is the sympathetic system and its job is mobilisation and enhanced action (fight or flight) â the target here are the limbs. This system is also mobilises our horse for play and movement â what makes this work pleasant for our horse is the interaction of the social engagement system.
3. The third system (which exists only in mammals) is a branch of the parasympathetic system that activates the Vagus nerve that is related to social engagement and attachment behaviours â this system is linked to cranial nerves that mediate facial expression and vocalisation. It animates unconscious muscles in the throat, face, middle ear, heart and lungs, which together communicate emotions.
The nervous system has defaults that activate from the bottom up. The first system that is likely to activate in times of stress is (1) is a ânon thinkingâ system. It has allot of power and if it takes over the overall functions of our horse it inhibits the social engagement system (3) â we may simply feel â¦.âbut our horse is not listening to usâ; or âour horse does not want to engage with usâ.
Remember the picture in the video series mapping the changes of nervous system state that Star went through approaching the bareback pad? Letâs revisit this here.
Pic of mapping here
How do we use our knowledge of the nervous system in training?
Noticing a theme? If we can help engage the ventral vagal system (the social engagement system..3) we have the best chance for our horse to feel masterful, proud and confident. For us this means we need to:
a. Respect autonomy
b. Notice, support and respond appropriately to our horseâs body language
c. Create movement activities which our horse enjoys that, along with the clicker, can become assets for our horse to use in times when he or she needs confidence to be motivated to say âI CAN do thisâ. When we are successful, these movement patterns, and our support, influence the social engagement system.
The human literature tells us that when the social engagement system is supressed, a person will have trouble reading positive emotions from others and have little capacity to feel their own levels of positive emotions. Further, being either in (1) or (2) diminishes a personâs capacity to interpret and receive empathy and support. There is safety nowhere to be found. Now there is only antedoctal evidence when it comes to horses, but the original work was on the ânon-humanâ mammal, so there is no reason not to think this applies to horses as well.
What does this mean for our horse? It quite possibly means that when the social engagement (3) is not influencing our horses emotional state, our horse may not âhearâ our encouraging words and actions as something positive for them, they may not feel we are a safe place for them. It may not even be possible to experience positive emotions when they hear a click and get a treat in some cases. We believe that there are some specific movement patterns and our support that help us help our horse to âleadâ with the social engagement (3) system â and not just in times when they need a little confidence.
If you did not get a chance to view Seth Porgesâ review when we mentioned it in the free clicker basics overview. Take some time to watch it now:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=br8-qebjIgs
What goes up must come down
It is important to say a few words about recovery after being nervous or excited before we move on.
We are not saying that there wonât be times when our horse may become anxious or even overly excited. It happens to all mammals! Our horseâs nervous system needs to recover fully when this happens though, so that equilibrium in their nervous system can be restored.
Often, we do not give our horse the opportunity to completely âcome downâ from this state. Thatâs not because we donât want to, but we probably have previously given these signs a different meaning. Our horse though, will not be comfortable to go through this process unless:
1. Our horse has autonomy 2. Our horse is comfortable to express their emotions 3. We are part of the social engagement system for our horse
The recovery process will begin when our horse releases energy and we see this through calming signs, yawning, jaw stretching and even licking and chewing or even head shaking or body shaking, as examples. And if we support our horse in this state the literature suggests that any stress will reverse. When we donât facilitate this or âfloodâ our horse, stress will accumulate, and we will notice that more and more our horse seemingly spooks at every small thing. Our horse becomes a bundle of nerves.
Peter Levine says âwhat goes up must come downâ. Giving our horse the time he or she needs here is a very important part of the process if we are using movement to create confidence and pride.
Building blocks
In times of anxiety or in times of pleasurable interactions with our horse, ideally, we would like our horseâs social engagement system (3) to be mediating both relaxation (a little 1) and mobilisation for enhanced action when we are training our horse (a little 2). We will take a moment to explain the building blocks we use to seek to transport our horse and ourselves to this position. These building blocks are based on Levine (2010);
Establish an environment of relative safety.
We are going to be our horses secure base so we must have a calm centred presence but consistently listen and act on what our horse is telling us. We want to help our horse move towards establishing their own mastery for self-empowerment but first confidence in us and then themselves (autonomy is part of this process).
Support the initial exploration and acceptance of sensation. We want our horse to become self-regulating and autonomous. We begin this by supporting our horseâs access to their inner sensations (the autonomic nervous system) and help them tolerate and use their inner sensations, and not be consumed by the consequences that create anxiety.
For example, if we and our horse approach something that may create anxiety, our horse will often stop at a threshold of tolerance (the place where they feel if they go closer it will be too much). At this threshold we need to give our horse time to feel and regulate their nervous system. We are our horses reassuring presence, we are reliable and safe, and we are an essential aid for our horse in this time. These will be in very small steps in many cases. We wait until our horse shows some signs of his or her nervous system is pendulating (coming down) and we will usually see this represented by calming signs.
When we are confident that our horse has completed what he or she needs to do, we can guide our horse into something that is comforting and masterful for our horse. This is where movement will help guide the process.
Restoring active responses through movement
The instinctual movements that were once used for self-protection (legs and movement and eustress) are used for mastery and this empowers our horse by expelling the physical sensation of flight (or defeat) and accessing an active and powerful experience.
Not all movement work is appropriate here â we need movements that have a gentle rhythm and to this end we use posture work; power walks and the Intrinzen inspired panther walk. These movements are purposeful and bring our horses a sense of pride â they use this to better develop their own posture when training with us or interacting with other horses, but in times of anxiety use this also, with our support to give them the courage to say âI got thisâ.
Movement:
⢠Activates and coordinates the proprioceptive systems. Awareness is kept âonlineâ by activating the arousal branch of the autonomic nervous system which is the opposite to shut down.
⢠Creates sensations and feelings which are stored as memories in both the limbic system and the brain stem (where emotions arise in the nervous system).
⢠Is akin to somatic and proprioceptive awareness that help our horses learn where his or her body is (which, amongst other things helps them on their path to confidence).
⢠Brings agency, curiosity and power. Some movements helpsour horse go between a small about of anxiety to a feeling of empowerment and mastery â it is like back and forth shifting of attention and this enhances aliveness and deepens relaxation.
If our horse is anxious, these movements will help our horse release what was stuck inside, and feelings of anxiety will and do change to something more positive and empowering. Now we know that horses do not have the language skills or the top down skills to âknowâ this. But what we can do is help our horse not be afraid of the consequences by changing them for our horse.
What we do is help our horse find the opposite sensation of anxiety through masterful movement in very slow titrated increments. When this happens (slowly and carefully) this powerful and masterful sensation allows a reconnection and according to Levine (2010) the âshifting evokes one of the most important reconnections to the bodyâs innate wisdom: the experience of pendulation, the bodyâs natural restorative rhythm of contraction and expansion that tells us that whatever is felt is time limited. Pendulation carries all living creatures through difficult sensations and emotionsâ (pp 79-80) and restores feelings of relief and life flow. The pendulations allow our horse to recover his or her balance and return to lifeâs engagement. So, it is a natural resilience process that in times of anxiety will get shut down. We will see this as we progress because the dynamics of the actual movements become stronger and more confident. If we are using them to help our horse be confident in a once worrying situation you will see as the confidence grows the actual movement become larger and prouder like. This is a great way to gauge whether the work we are doing is helping our horse become more confident.
In this workshop we will be helping you and your horse master the movements that can help your horse become more masterful confident and proud.
Not convinced that we are a good fit for you?
Now that we have shared our philosophy it is time for you to consider whether we can work together. It is fine if you feel that we are not the best fit for you. There is no shame in following your own principles and we applaud you for this. We have done so in the past; we have left clinics midsession; we have said ânoâ to instructors and even taken ourselves away from lists and groups if we do not feel we are a good fit. You must do what is right for you and your horse. So no questions asked simply drop us an email and ask for a refund before you click the next button â ausclickerconnection@gmail.com
June 28, 2019
Better?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib-j6nGMqxs
June 29, 2019
yes fantastic - dont forget to walk on the other side as well LOL but yes no more than this on both sides and then I would give him maybe 2 days of this and then add a little lift after the down - so it would go down (and now get your keep going signal started) and then click and treat - down and then up (now the pointer is at the chest SATS spot) - now if there is not a change nearly immediately and you dont feel a slight shoulder lift - dont leave it there go back to down and begin again (down click treat down , lift)
Where exactly is the SATS spot at the chest? Couldn't really see in in your video.
nothing was happened, so really had to twist my arm to stop, hahaha.
on the chest in between the pectoral muscles - if you thought nothing was happening then what did you click for?
You told me to click when or immediately after I said "front leg", so I did. Correcting myself: when walking, he did lower his head a little bit, so something did happen. ? yes and that was better, but the second video yesterday also saw you click when there was a stretch down - that was where we begin
Yes, he did respond the day before yesterday in the long video, but yesterday, in the very short session, it was less distinct, as it felt to me.
He also had, at times, moved his legs a bit or intended to, but yesterday there was no leg movement at all, when I gave the verbal cue.
verbal cue? for what?
for moving front leg.
Just had another look, and noticed that I was too late with my clicks for him stretching down between 2:00 and 2:30ish.
not sure what you mean to move the front leg? are you speaking about SATS? (if so we are not aiming to move the front leg in SATS it is name only) - if in walk then we are clicking for the head down which you were - initially it wont be allot but it will become more as we shape - 2.30 you were in SATS though. 2.00 you could have clicked but your click was good at 2.18
Yes, SATS. Oooh, I got that wrong then. I thought the horse was supposed to align his feet when we say front leg etc.
Will work more on my timing
not at the beginning - only when we are asking for the crunch LOL - at the present moment (but we can move forward now) it is name only - we then put a purpose to the 'leg' by asking with the crunch - BUT I just want to see if we can get some power walking before the crunch in case this makes the difference with the neck
but it is great you are asking questions but baby steps with him - so next time I reckon a couple of forward stretches and start to see what happens if now and again you ask lift
Ahaaa! Will let you know how it goes.
One of the tasks of guinea pigs is to ask questions, isn't it?
see when we begin with the crunch it will be ask - if nothing ask again and then click and treat the slightest movement with the leg - we only want to associate this with the crunch (or else the panther walk will the same and we want the panther walk to be lift stretch not lift better posture - this is why we use the noodle for the panther walk to discriminate and therefore we dont get extinction bursts (we hope)
YES it is
June 30, 2019
here is an extract (and I did a slow mo at the end) to show what we are looking at in the power walk - this extract is from a classical perspective and what we are doing is using +R and shaping rather than -R pressure and release - also the other difference is that classical seem to say that core work begins with the weight of the inside leg - when we have proven time and time again this can first be achieved through crunches -
Golly Sarah wants me to be a guest speaker at this thing! aghhh I will never get my online course finished. Well this is all experience and the behaviour quals are taking up most of my 'me' time between 1am and 6pm hahahahaha - I guess though that is a days work - I am pushing through the first stage so thats good
Wow! Another big project on your poor back! You are so brave to work yourself through all this! Gold star to you!
Speaking of star: I loved your photos in Human HB. Star is looking wonderful in his Power Walk, and your are so enthusiastic and positive and supportive to him!
Oh why can't you live closer to me!
Still reading my way through your draft. Will take a bit longer. But from what I have read so far, it looks great. And very understandable for dummies
it is fine though as that is what I do for humans and for horses so the stuff I think she wants me to do (she will tell me next week) is really the online stuff I am working on - hahahahaha why cant you live closer to me - but you are getting closer
Oh great - it still needs some work but I am not that worried as it will all fall into place
Climate your end is way too hot for me. I remember my one time I gave a clinic near Byron Bay in November. It was so hot and humid that I spent my whole time either in my friend's swimming pool or with a wet towel draped around my neck during the classes
did that short video make sense to you with the stretch and the lift? it is what we are aiming for - nice walks with +R
yep it gets hot but we are not as humid as Byron
The torrential rain and strong wind finally stopped, so I can do something with the horses again today. After brekkie
hahahaha - It is nearly my lunch time! I was late today a 2am start
Yes, makes sense. Unfortunately I lost the sound halfway through, so have to sort that out and watch again.
OMG, 2 am!
no the slow mo has no sound (the end)
Aaah, that's why!
hahaha - yes it is just a little bit of one of Bents videos but thats not Bent - that was a squire test
Bent? Bent Branderup? yep I know what he looks like from his books and videos
hahaha yep we all cannot mistake Bent His moustache is very recognisable, haha. yep (same as you cannot mistake his voice)
Will bring Carlotta in and try a few crunches today, maybe one day she will work it out with the neck, despite all my efforts to be in her way, hehehe.
just remember not to click the neck ask again in a different way - maybe say to yourself - I will try and make it clearer for you.....then ask for something proud -whatever she wants to do and then ask again
Yes, will do that, thank you.
think about using the pointer maybe at her chest between the pecs
it is good to see different ways of coping with the neck as every human and horse is different and also too we have different reinforcement histories we have to take into account to make sure there is no extinction
That used to work very well in the past, but you somehow told me not to do it at that time, so I dropped it, obedient as I am (at times)
no there was a reason why but I cannot remember - it is not what I would want to use initially as we really are owning that movement but we do have to revisit and then I need to think about what it was now hahahaha
I am getting over 'owning' movement to be honest the more I am doing this stuff with Sarah - owning the nervous system is becoming more of a priority to me
well if we can help him with resilience then he is going to be better for it
June 30, 2019
Carlotta this morning. I should have stopped after the first two clicks...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Btdd9vihj0&feature=youtu.be
hahaha she did some good lifts - but she goes back too much before up - maybe that is what you are left with for the moment as what she wants to do is to bend her hocks and not lift the shoulders - I will slow those couple down - I think that this is why I wanted not to use under the chest with her because of the thought this puts in her head - not to raise the shoulders but rather to go back and bend rather that up and then back (a little but leave the bending to movement). Maybe accept this for the time being - let me see what she is doing in slow mo
Wotan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpKeIBMJCHQ&feature=youtu.be
Interesting, Julie, that shines a new light on it. Her shifting back is not limited to when I use the pointer to her chest, she does it more or less pretty often. But at least she now arches her neck and makes the muscles of her back work very clearly in a (moderate at this stage) lift.
I could really slap myself that, at least once in each session, I accidentally click when she uses her neck a bit. grrrrrr
After-thought: maybe she thinks she is supposed to do this, as I had taught her to rock her weight back quite some years ago.
you will get it if it is reinforced and it is so entrenched it would be hard to stop it, just need to try and adjust
With Wotan the stretch is good, but you are drilling - a couple and then move on - you can see actually that when you stop there is a lift - so take advantage of this and move on (and to the other side) so stretch (on cue with your voice as well - the wind is too loud to hear) and then lift but keep walking and when there is a lift and a walk and no hesitation to walk after a 'lift' - at the shoulders click and treat - dont be afraid to move forward we dont want something perfect before we do - we want only to plant the seeds and the work you do grows those seeds
I will get the slow mo for you when I can later today - the question I am doing at the moment for submission is more complicated than I expected
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jgt6efvc9qg4z25/Yvonne%20slow%20mo.mp4?dl=0
Thank you for taking the time to help me with Carlotta and Wotan in between all the work you have. Yes, the slowmo makes it very clear that she shifts her weight a lot and bends her hocks. Eeeks!
I aked her this morning after riding (once unsaddles). Trying to make a little routine now of asking for 1 or 2 crunches at such occasions, and it is starting to become old hat a bit already after 3 days of it. I unclip the leadrope, walk a few steps away then stop and ask for crunch. Today she organised her legs very nicely, then crunched. Looked goo to me, but I might have to get it on video too. I try to click before she shifts back. Tricky
For Wotan: yes, I should have stopped a lot earlier - mea culpa! He is so eager to play
OK, will keep that in mind with carry on walking. Will try today.
yes the lean back is still not what I would want from an academic perspective if this was what you wanted to encourage - It is the lifting of the shoulders that she is not starting with maybe leave it for a while and see what we can do with a lift in the walk?
Good idea. Will get her started on this too.
Horrible weather again. Did something a bit creative though: Took vids of all three horses with the same task - three completely different characters
Wotan's 3rd session with PW, and getting the hang of it quite nicely.
Carlotta's first try, at first at liberty, then with lead rope (didn't want to spend ages in that freezing cold wind ). She respended nicely, but always threw her experienced stuff in. Cute
Valeta: completely brand-new to this, so she had to figure out first what that pointer meant. And did her darn nippy stuff all the time, then got p*ssed off when I told her I didn't like it. But apart from that, very fast learner and very interested in the task.
Uploaing them now, so you can have a look tomorrow, if you have time Nighty-night!
sounds great!
It was fascinating, Julie.
The one with Valeta is already done. She is one cheeky little so-and-so!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONBjr459PiQ&feature=youtu.be
Wotan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXeehKFJgxY&feature=youtu.be Sorry, camera was too close.
Carlotta: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2uFPVpHSP4&feature=youtu.be and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHmJwe-0T3g&feature=youtu.be
with Valeta she needs to understand the click and treat relationship better - if you dont spend the time with this first you are going to get some aggression - at the moment there is only a little nipping as she is not sure when the treat is coming. You also need to really watch your treat delivery - you cannot have the horse come to the treat - you must take the treat to the horse - it is easy when we have an old hand at it and their manners are great but Valeta has to learn them and I would be spending more time in getting that click and treat relationship first and then emotional control - it is too hard to ask a young horse to do it all at once (without helping her develop emotional control). So she shows you autonomy and then you chase her away - OK so the best thing is to work out what you want to do and how you will respond in these circumstances - yes it was a shock but it is more an indication that she has little emotional control and that is normal at her age. Now you are doing allot of pushing her away - I do not personally recommend clicker training this way as we are blending positive and negative states - we then get frustration and aggression eventually - if this were me I would be taking the time it takes to build up a clicker relationship and emotional control - it wont take long but it should be done.
Wotan looks good - one thing you need to remember is that a click stops the behaviour (in normal use) so when you click you need to stop and then treat - the down up is really getting good - try and be a little further to the side away now (and position yourself more to the shoulder) and allow a little more autonomy - also I would now always string the two together ...are you using your voice cues? when you can consistently tidy up your treat delivery (by stopping to treat) and the up down is consistent at different intervals I reckon we should now see if we can relate it to a crunch
Carlotta the first short one - you are chasing her again? Can you have a look at this one again and really compare you (not the horses) to the earlier two? Can you see that the other horses seem to have some autonomy and you take cues off them - but with Carlotta you want her to take the cues off you - in the sense that you went there with the intention of a power walk and you were going to do this regardless of the fact that she walked away with her ears pretty flat - I also felt that your energy was different for her - and this is more interesting to me - you 'feel' less determined with the others and more prepared to see what they can do - whereas here you feel more determined to do this regardless of what she wants......how does this resonate with you? I believe that the wind is not a distraction in the sense we usually mean it - I thought it was but there is another explanation and that is that she is taking her mind off the pressure she feels - it is her chance for a break - so to test this I would walk away and err on the side of the coin that tells me she is screaming at me - wait for her to come to me and then see what she wants to do. I think though you have the lift nice at the end - and as you are more at her shoulder you are able to get that lift square (rather than the pointer being across the chest)
the next one - can you see that you actually pull her to begin to walk with you? and when she uses the wind as reason to stop and take stock you are nagging her LOL - I thought she actually did better at the end of the first one - I dont think it was because the lead was on but rather than it is an added tool for you - you are not watching her feet when you ask for the 'tiny' lift at first hahahahaha - OK so at the end we can see why she is doing what she is because of the cues that had been learnt before and now the touching of the withers has now attached itself to what she thinks you want - you cant keep asking for this unless this is what you want ( I dont as I can imagine how her neck and spine is straining). My gut feeling is to turn this into a cue for are you ready - lets go....let me think on it - the other thing could be when she does this to ask her to look down towards the pointer and when she releases her neck click and treat .. what do you think?
All so true, Julie. I got the feeling with Carlotta that I did it wrong at the moment it happened. I really shouldn't do things with her unless I am prepared to wait for her.
Valeta: Yes, definitely I need to revisit table manners with clicker training. She used to be pretty good, but I became slack and didn't give her enough attention. I think she sensed this and is making her point about it!
Yes, I do need to spend that time with her, helping her to gain emotional control. Never good to overlook that kind of stuff happening. All my fault.
it is all experience and sometimes we dont see it until the video. see Stars training wheels came off today
July 1, 2019
Well, yes, I felt the need to send her away. I definitely do NOT want any of my horses rearing up right behind my back and striking out at me. I always had the feeling that I would have to pay much more attention to her attitude than for the others, and this told me I was right. If this is her autonomy, then no, I can't give her that. But I think she will eventually understand that she need to keep some distance when she was to have that sort of fun games. In which case I would be happy with it. Maybe some protected contact work. Difficult, as there is not much room behind the arena fence. it was not autonomy in the strict sense, she was trying to come up and she just wanted to play - it is our job to have the eyes at the back of the head LOL - it happens but you are equating human emotions and a sense of value to what she was thinking - she and horses do not think like that I do not see that she needs protected contact - it was the only real animated thing she did on her own - she needs to be guided yes but thats our job not hers to know this. I really feel that protected contact for her and you as a team would not work at the moment - but if you wanted to you just make one inside the arena - you dont need much room
Maybe not, but it didn't feel safe.
Star: FA-BU-LOUS!!
And he seems comfy with the pad on his back. He was the one with the big issues about it, right?
His PW looks a lot like Carlotta's when I ride her. Soo keen and concentrated on the task. She gave me a lot of it this morning. Also some crunches (unrequested) at stand-still. I only said good girl, as she was using her neck a bit. I think she uses it to simmer down after difficult tasks, like our work with walk-canter-walk transitions every 3 steps.
For the attempts to lift her chest/shoulders, today I tried something new: apart from touching chest and saying lift, I also touched her back with the pointer. After one or two tries, I saw her back muscles twitch upwards slightly.
OK, will get back to this later. Must walk the dogs now, before we leave. yes he is scared of anything on his back - this is not his true PW - but we are getting there - the idea is that the more confident he gets the better it becomes - her back with the pointer? where on her back?
In the middle of the spine. You will see it in today's vids.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWYw6xuw-rI&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joapje4y0lI&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJlpnqouKsw&feature=youtu.be
Wotan was great - nice a calm also - I dont think you need to do SATS anymore except when you need to with the crunches - so with the power walk when we are 'up' extend this for a longer time and I would start crunching - I would use the wood from the labyrinth behind his back feet - now dont get greedy and at first we will be clicking every muscle movement and it wont look like a crunch
what do you mean by 'middle of the spine'?
with Valeta, so you want her to look away when you click? thats your choice - it is not something I do anymore but allot of people do it and it is popular. I personally just want them to be quiet and wait for the treat to come to them when I click. But it is whatever you are comfortable with - to me it is more about the psychology of looking away and 'working away' from me
hahahaha you cant help yourself - at 1.24 you are walking towards her - all the area and space you have and you gave up waiting hahahahahaha but she comes to you nice but you ignore here and then she ignores you - if you feel her coming turn to her, praise, click and treat if you like (if it is with energy) but dont ignore her effort. Can you sit on the trampoline and read a book or do something on it to get your mind off her? it felt that you were still present with her when you were waiting? maybe you were not? when she comes to you at the 3.30 mark do something with her - she was waiting for a click and treat and it is fine you dont give her one then but do something simple so she can earn a click and treat. I would have made a big deal about the next approach - dont forget we have a social engagement system and use it - yes Carlotta well done ...lets do...and then do something. The nice thing here was that she clearly thought she was going to be ridden and she came to you. So my question to you is - did she come because she knew she had a choice? Her walk was great and now with that panther walk lets elevate this even more and stop it being so dainty - so yes yes yes when she steps and even use the noodle to get a bigger lift from her (more like she is under saddle) - really pick up some energy just for a minute or so - we want her time here to be fun for her (not work). I wish I could have seen that crunch at 4.50 it looked good? Be careful how you use the noodle at the chest - it is not a 'barrier' and the sheer awkwardness of these makes them so hahahaha but she looks good - how did she feel to you? I was a shorter time for her to come back the second time - was that your big fuss at 7.00 hahahahaha - allot less neck at 7.14, good click for her leg then I would have also clicked that. I am not sure about the one you clicked after that with the noodle on the spine (OK now I see what you mean) - she did use her neck allot and with her the focus needs to be on the neck - so carrying on from that crunch after she poofs up then ask her to look in the direction of the noddle which is down in line with her chest and then click - now we are clicking after we loose the poof of the crunch but if you can get consistent at this soon she will put her head back in anticipation of the click and before you click you ask for the crunch again make sense? I have been thinking about it and I keep coming back to doing it this way (which I have done for someone before) sorry Carlotta was the last comment
Woohoo, a lot to process. OK, will see how we go with Wotan. I am not doing anything with them today, as it is so late already and yesterday it was quite dark too, so the two Darkies were difficult to see in all that.
I was quite happy with all three actually. Wotan is such a nice little guy, and seems to gain some confidence in me now. There were a few worrying things during the session, but he settled down nicely and fairly quickly.
I tried not to push Valeta back anymore, but instead just turn my upper body away when she tried to nip me, which worked pretty well, I feel. The background story is that her sire (despite being a great little horse and very willing in general) has heavily crowded his owner and also Chris several times, knocking Margaret over in the process and trying to bite Chris in such an "attack". And I can see a certain tendency in Valeta which I don't want to develop of course. So thinking a lot about what approach to take. Currently re-reading Mark Rashid's "Horses never lie" and wondering how he would handle the situation....
I briefly went behind the fence, as you saw, but thought that she was pretty good, so climbed back in with her. I found her less nippy yesterday than usual. I am bering in mind that she is at a difficult age right now. Anyway, we will see.
Yeah, Carlotta.... She was so "absent" for so long that I was about to give up, when she suddenly started walking over to me. You say I missed her first approach. Dang!
Oh yes, can see it. Didn't watch the video before, just sent it to you. Yes, definitely, I should have rewardeded her there.
For the lining up at the pedestal: she lines up for me each time I get on and off her. I was just curious to see what she would do when I just went up there and did nothing and she was relatively far away. Found if very nice how she decided to come and line up herself.
It all felt very good all-in-all, and she did a couple of really nice crunches. Pity it was so dark already, so can't be really seen in the video. When I touched her spine with the noodle, she thought about it, then lifted her back a bit to meet it, which I had hoped for. OK, she used her neck the second time, but she still lifted her back. But if you think it's counter-productive, I can drop that exercise.
Not sure whether I understand correctly what you say at the end, but will try to work it out
This morning's ride was great. I worked on getting lighter for my leg cue for half-pass (she had difficulties with this lately), as I noticed that I put on a lot of leg (for my standards). So today I tried to do it differently and with a feather-light leg on and off. Worked nicely! Also worked on soft stops. She has gone into a routine of (a bit nervously, as it feels) starting into PW when I ask her to stop. Before Intrinzen, all I had to do was tilt my pelvis a bit and she would stop on this, without reins, but this is gone. So we worked on stops today. Got some nice results. Asked her to stand still for a while (like a minute or so), with reins loose. Which she did, but several times, she started to offer crunches while standing still (I didn't ask for them, of course). The first two or three felt great - no neck and lifting herself up beautifully. The following ones she was using her neck again a bit, so I only said good girl and didn't click and treat. She is so sweet and willing to work for me, even if it is hard at times.
OK so with Valeta - you are going to get yourself into a jam again if you use -R and +R which effectively you are doing now but mild - I dont condone it as it creates frustration. that book and how mark felt at the time is full of -R as that is who he is - is he better at it and less forceful than some? yes he is but it is still all -R (he does though choose to wait for the horses and activates their SEEKING system). I have no seen any evidence of aggression but if you expect that it will happen then it is going to and nothing is going to change your mind about the cause of it - crowding and nipping is what you expect and this is what you will get - these are not heredity behaviours - they are not traits they are behaviours and they cannot be inherited. My question was did you want her to look away before you treat? and if this is a yes and you are saying you are doing that for this reason - OK as allot of people do - I dont like it and I dont now use it at all for anyone. Proper treat delivery and even asking for a gentle step back as you are treating would be preferable
I am not sure about the noodle on the back - I do use the pointer on the back in Panther walk to get a bigger lift so thats the same thing but the noddle is so large and you have no way of being free enough to bring attention to her neck
thats great about the feather light leg with Carlotta, she would really appreciate it. Yes I suspect cues were mixed up with the panther walk under saddle as you were clicking this and she then realised the cue for stop is now something different. If the neck comes after a couple just do one and dont try for a second one for a while
July 2, 2019
About Valeta: I have been giving it a lot of thoughts these last days, due to what you have been saying to me and due to Mark Rashid's book. I had attended two clinics he held in South Australia some 20 years ago and was impressed with his gentleness and positive attitude. Yes, he uses exclusively -R, but in a masterful way. And he didn't mind I use CT during the clinics. I don't share your opinion that you can't mix -R and CT really. That's what I do during riding, and it always seemed to work well. But that's just a side note. What I wanted to talk about is that I have come to the same conclusion, i.e. that my attitude towards Valeta is wrong and sets her up for that behaviour. So I decided not to get annoyed anymore when she nipped in my direction, but instead stood there calmly with only slightly raising my palm if really necessary. Also made soft eyes, slowed myself down inside and gently talked to her. Softly stroked her neck a bit and praised her when she stood still and polite. Has made some change already!
It was only in the paddock, so we will see how we go when in the arena next time. But I am determined to be positive. She might have sensed that all my love and pride are on Carlotta, and that she and Wotan are sortof additions. Will try to change this.
About looking away before treat delivery: that is the way I had learned it long ago from Alex, so have used it since without giving it any further thought. Now that Valeta has it in her system, I don't think she will abandon it, what do you think? I don't mind if she just holds her head straight or steps back a step or two (which she has done a couple of times in the vid, and I rewarded it), as long as she is polite. Will see what we can do to change it to just waiting politely.
All good advice for Carlotta, about doing only one etc. Will try. Something interesting happened again. Yesterday, while I was finishing my saddling (taking stirrups down, putting chaps on etc), she suddenly started doing crunches. Big praise, of course, as the first ones looked good. She also is starting to rearrange her feet by herself now and stand square. She did the same this morning after the ride, crunched a couple of times while I was busy with something else nearby. Got lots of hurrays and cuddles
Yes, you are right, she must be confused about the cues for stopping and PW. I worked a bit on it this morning, but I think she had some little problems, as she was a bit unwillig to do canter transitions (she was very good with canter-walk though), and seemed to have difficulties holding the canter. Then went into a PW and it felt very weird - she kinda stomped her feet while doing it. So I thought: OK, you want to stop, let's stop then, and she happily walked to the exit.
I dont think your attitude is wrong - I feel that you have your own boundaries and you draw a line as to when they are crossed - there is nothing wrong with that - we just all have different yard sticks. You have to ask yourself though when you actually do chastise her - (in your mind, by your actions or even walking away) what are you doing - in some cases it is actually punishment and mixing this with +R confuses and frustrates the horse no end (not to mention that what our horse does is just a reflection on what their nervous system, hormones and emotions are doing at that time). I personally have only one rule about treat delivery and that is I come to the horse (hard with the damm liquid though LOL) - I have long got out of the turn the head away as it has a connotation in the nervous system that I dont want around - I do not have any problem with asking for a step back to treat - so click - start to take the treat to the horses chest - as you are doing this take one step forward and then stretch your arm our and treat - There is also no reason why the two cannot be combined (feed straight and step back) - depending on what is happening as sometimes it is inconvenient to walk around and step forward.
July 3, 2019
This morning, under unsaddling, I every so softly put my finger tip on her spine, and she immediately lifted her back!
Yes I think personally at the moment just take the crunches when Carlotta offers them - if you need to adjust then do so with making sure the neck is out but dont go to any effort for a while to cue them maybe?
OK, will do.
hahahaha stomping the feet louder than usual could also be dragging the hind legs a little or not engaging the core - or LOL frustration! - I was experimenting with them both this morning and in the Panther walk I brought my pointer to the wither and said lift and they seemed to really get this cue
It clearly felt like frustration.
yep they do it
So, for Valeta: what do I do when she starts nipping? I am very aware that walking away is -P, so you think this is inappropriate as it sounds?
And yes, I could use asking a step back with my body languate then feed her with extended arm in that position. Maybe it will wipe out the turning away of the head? Good idea to give it a go. I never asked for this really, but just rewarded her own occasional offers.
Carlotta: the reason why I started experimenting with a slight touch on the spine was this might get her to think about lifting her back which didn't seem to happen before (much). Maybe not a good idea, or maybe it is one? As you can see, I love to experiment myself and try out things
punishment is never the answer - and the thing is the nipping is not something she is doing because she can - it is the combination of hormones and neurotransmitters that are going on - so we need to understand why her body is doing this - it is mostly because of frustration or a little lack of emotional control - first we have to make sure it is not confusion because of the turning of the head (BTW Alex does not do that anymore) - so try the arm ourstretched - but remember that this is treat delivery - it is not an 'excuse' to teach something. try for more clearer signals and click more often and also perhaps a little more in the treat when you give it to her - keep it very short so we dont set her up for failure
no the touching of the spine if it works then great - but add a voice cue as when you are on her back it cant be done - I think there are so many things that can resonate with each horse - the more the experiments happen the more repertoire we have
OK, will try. I think it's quite some lack of emotional control, as she is such a super-intelligent, exuberant little thing, also an anticipator, like Carlotta.
the way to circumvent issues as to emotional control is to make the task harder. like ADD
July 4, 2019
but she is also young and she is still finding her way around the clicker
Thing is I need to get emotional control from her, be it only to have less stressful feet trimming session, which have been quite a pain up to now. Thankgod, Silke is so calm and patient, so things are slowly improving. I tried various approaches, like holding her on the halter (which went into wrestling), or rapid-firing clicking, which turned into gimme-gimme-gimme, then talking to her calmly and only take hold of the halter when she started nipping and only clicking when the foot was set down.
Maybe I should do what I did in the early learning phase, i.e. just pick up her feet at liberty in the paddock when I go near her.
Hm, not really sure what you mean by the above to circumvent issues by ADDing? Woops, aren't we jumping back and forth between horses?
emotional control is learned we are not born with it and things happen in their lives where this can actually be damaged. So yes if you have feet issues and it is just about her fiddling I would do SATS but onto the next bit - I will find a video I did ages ago with Sharney when I was teaching her to be less anxious when her feet were lifted
not adding - making a task harder so they have to think about it - but the feet and counting will be a good task for this in any event
I am speaking about Valeta
Touching spine: Should I use the same lifting cue for chest (shoulders) and spine, or rather diffeent ones?
if the aim is a lift then the same one When she does PW under saddle and use the verbal cue "lift" (combined with pointing whip forward), I have the distinct feeling she is lifting herself up, so sortof knows it already
Ah good, great.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PYxbTi3ZPw&t=32s
I don't think Valeta is anxious about having her feet picked up and worked on, it's just that she always is mouthy when people are nearby and fumbles and fumbles. sigh
And it has a tendency to turn into nipping. She reminds me of young stallion colts in this. And I remember her mum's temper tantrums when she didn't like something.
yes if you feel her shoulders lift then encourage the core lift and great - If Valeta is mouthy when people are nearby then she is showing she has some anxiety - she cannot come down from it - so all social engagement and 'routines' will also help her and allow her the time to come down in her nervous system - she needs confidence that nothing is going to happen and she can control her own nervous system - so I would try the SATS with the feet - start small - I am going to count 1,2,3 and then we will put your foot down...are you ready - OK lets go
July 4, 2019
Love the video. The xxx, and your voice gets quite energetic at times, hahaha. We introduced Carlotta and Valeta to the hoof stand too (as Silke uses the same one), and it went very quickly for Carlotta. Valeta is still struggling a bit with it, but after all, Silke has only been here for 4 times up to now, so it will happen.
So, for the SATS with the feet: do you mean I say "front leg" then pick it up and count 1,2,3, then set it down?
yes it is always about energy I dont want them falling asleep - it is not a massage - it is hard work when a horse is in fear to have this happen so the social engagement system has to be full on
it is the next bit of SATS - it goes like this - I am going to pick your foot up for 3 seconds, now I am going to count 3 seconds and then put it down - are you ready? OK lets go 1,2,3, great! click and then treat
Will go out now and give it a go and take vid.
Ahaa, I just talk (or think about) what I am going to do and thus communicate it to her. Now, I must scroll back and find your instructions for next step with Wotan .
now the SATS training had us saying all this out loud - your call but actually saying it out loud does help US as we have a beginning, middle and end - there is no room for uncertainty or 'adding' more because we can
I think it was do a little bit mor PW then try a beginning of crunch. Makes sense!
Wotan was great - nice a calm also - I dont think you need to do SATS anymore except when you need to with the crunches - so with the power walk when we are 'up' extend this for a longer time and I would start crunching - I would use the wood from the labyrinth behind his back feet - now dont get greedy and at first we will be clicking every muscle movement and it wont look like a crunch
Goody, thanks.
you dont have to use the hoof jack yet - just play around with it for a day or so - slowly extending the time say 3, 5, 8, , 3, 5....always go back to a smaller interval after we take a big leap
July 5, 2019
So, here is Valeta: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hpvjli-jKpU&feature=youtu.be
Didn't all go to plan, as we had a bit of difficulty with the shifting back for food delivery. And she had locked stifles, which didn't help. She has that at times, like her mum when she was young. Quite common in young PFs.
Don't you think she looks calmer and more polite already?
She was still eager to play after this, so I got the mat and we had a bit of fun with it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avE_MG-54gE&feature=youtu.be
Wotan a bit of PW, then first attempt of crunches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_ODkNoo5j8&feature=youtu.be
I also have one of Carlotta, but it is blurry, so maybe not even worth sending it to you for a quick look before I delete it?
No if you can see anything with Carlotta send it - will look at them in the am - you have me excited to see Valeta calm
Just checked the Carlotta video. I thought she was doing lovely efforts, but in the end, she might be using her neck too much. Anyway, here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jREY2g4uYAw
The "usabele" parts start around 5.00 I am a bit worried what you will say about Wotan's crunch attempt! Hope I didn't mess things up!
when you pick up the feet it is 1,2,3, click treat (and I would not pick them up that high as she was thrown off balance and we are trying to set her up for success (maybe you did click I could not hear it) - with the treat delivery - you are waiting for her to follow you - you are saying here is the treat and you just take a step forward and then turn your hand over and open it up for the treat (she will learn to go and get it). But yes she was good with the delivery - I suspect that you wont need to do the back but be consistent with facing forward and taking the treat to her - a few days and the nippiness may go. You dont fight with her if she wont lift - you say to yourself well this leg is for 1 count and we will build up to ..... but you are lifting them that high she is so off balance and that may be part of the reason she worries about her feet - especially the back ones .....does your trimmer lift them that high to trim?
I also think though if she is not really capable of feeling comfortable backing up then what you did today was good and I am sure that will be enough soon The power walk is getting good with Wotan - I would be really powering this up now and just do a little and then get into the crunches. Can you also see how much more observant he is with the click than Valeta - she will get there soon too. Yeah with the crunches this is pretty good, you are clicking for small muscle movements and thats what we want. I would not worry too much about the standing posture until he knows what we are asking for - but this is a really good start - this may be a keeper video for me! now dont rush this but we dont want to stay at this level for long - a couple of days and also add your voice cue and body cues now as well and we need to ask for more shortly
it is so funny that Carlotta always makes it hard LOL - Star was like this too - but he now is such a different horse and this has been way after intrinzen (although that did help) but it was after he finally was able to release his nervous system energy. Now when she did come to you and you clicked and treated I think you made a fuss - but think about just staying there and giving her a big rub and just being with her enjoying her company - and honestly I would stop and leave it at that for a couple of sessions - truly it would make a huge difference to her if you could stay with her and let her release her energy - see she would have some because she did not immediately go with you (she may have released on her way over to you but we dont know till we check - and you were too quick off the mark to do something after your click and treat - I am not sure but that is what my gut is telling me as I watch the blurs. And then when you both do something it is nice and with allot of power - I would focus on short powerful fun sessions (and again me??? I would have made that panther walk into a more energy filled walk and finished off)..... what was the click at 3.58 for? 4.23 CLICK YES - the next one was neck - and the next one was actually when you touched her back Yeah I think the pointer to have her focus in front is better 5.20 nope she is using her neck - if when you asked for this one you then put the pointer down a little so she could follow it down a little and then click it would work better. I am not sure about letting her do all this stuff at the end as each thing she tried she used her neck - I would take advantage of these times and maybe ask for her to follow the pointer down as she did one of the tricks and click that
July 6, 2019
Much food for thought, yet again. Yes, will try that with Carlotta today. And then later work on the neck problem, yet again....
So, you didn't mind Wotan shifting his weight back when he offered his first attempt of crunch?
Double-checking for Valeta: Yes, I definitely got her off balance by lifting the foot too high. She showed willingness to shift her weight off the required foot at times, so I should be more acknowledging for this.
Are you saying that I should preferably face her when handing out the treat? And stay more in place, not so much bringing my hand back to let her follow it? Will give this a try today.
there was one where he shifted and you clicked but the second one was allot better - I want muscle movements so if you keep clicking for back and not up thats what you will get. The way you treated Valeta was fine I thought - you were treating more when her head was flush - if you are going to use the 'back' yes you need to face her
Thanks, Julie Got my sessions done for today, uploading now. Whew, that one with Carlotta was Haaard! Doing nothing, that is!
yep!
When Wotan offered these two first crunch attempts, I got so enthusiastic that I wanted to reward him for it, even though there was a little shift backwards. Felt so great that he had figured it out already. Would you not have clicked there?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2CW-XHwFtk&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luQpZKEzlaU&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNhkkOAw130&feature=youtu.be
When riding Lotta this morning, I decided to focus on something very simple, which is in fact pretty difficult for her at this stage: walk-halt transitions and standing still. Sometimes she was able to do it (on a brief, light cue from me), at other times she felt she needed to break into a PW. So I had to ask again and click any half-happening beginning of stop, which did the trick for now. We worked on it for about 5 or 6 minutes and when she gave me a fairly good prompt stop, I quit for the day.
I really dont thing the panther walk can be changed to be called the tiger walk LOL - I will work that out with Sarah when the time comes as I think there is a way to turn it into a 'tiger walk' - but the panther walk (even though it is a spanish walk down the old fashion way - I wish I could get some old documentation - I thought I found it from a site in France but the documentation was not clear - I am SURE that those who used the spanish walk all those centuries ago actually did it the way we do a panther walk....wish I could find something), but the panther walk is not mine to change....and remember Kathy's IG is pantherflows. Now with Wotan he has not learnt the basics of this so I think first it is too early to be using a cue that is meaningless to him so that when you eventually use it it will already be dulled down and you would need to develop a new cue when the time came - also remember that the way you are using your legs is not a panther walk as they are not being thrown out to increase the space under your knee. So be careful when you use this cue - you may not know you are doing it but as you went on it became more like how you cue Carlotta for Panther walk. I am a little puzzled as to what you were clicking for in the walk - I could see the head down and that was good - but the lifting got a little lost for me - it looked more like you were using a panther walk cue and he was walking - nicely though. The idea of the lifting in a power walk is to lift from the stretch down and really raise the shoulders and hopefully take the weight back - so shoulders lead the weight shift - (at least that was my vision). With the stretch down now try and really elongate the back to get that nice stretch through the spine and then slowly coil up to get the lift - so if you were riding it would be stretch and lengthen and then pick up the rein. your hand is too far down his back when you bring attention to it - that will encourage the back (especially when our hand rubs back) focus on the wither area and also the shoulders. Yes that was great the second click - so lets try and take the neck out straight away - so when he does this take the pointer down or out a little to draw his attention to it then click. Yes the 6.35 click was good - you clicked before the head was used too much and you can see that he was looking at the pointer as you were asking - and the reason was that the pointer was near the chest - so keep that in mind - it is a good one to compare to the one before and the differences in head carriage. So yes I would have clicked where you did but I would not want to ignore the neck now - I know what intrinzen say but as you know it is a hard thing to fix - I had to fix it and I was lucky that it worked.
Now when Valeta does come face on and her nose is out for the treat be careful of your click timing - we dont want to click the nose out for a treat (it happened at 2.03 as well). See we need to encourage all the time not only good posture but a good 'mindset' around the treats for manners. I am not saying that this is bad behaviour it is not but it is stalking posture - for me this means that her mind is on the treat - so we dont want to click for these emotions. try not to click for her coming towards you - there is nothing special in this for her as she always will - so we dont usually want to rely on the click for 'normal' things that our horse does. In manners games more than anything we are trying to set our horse up for emotional success. So we dont want at any stage (if we can help it) to mark stuff that may suggest she is not in control. She is very busy with her mouth I am thinking maybe a little targeting might be good for her emotional control - the idea would be that she touches the target (on cue touch) but not bites the target - she would only get a click for touching not biting? Also keeping her nose on a stationary target? I saw you squeeze her hock to lift the back leg and she moved because of this (reflex or -R) and then you clicked - I would not advise this but I understand you had a different view - however do not do SATS this way or name and explain (the next SATS move) - because it cannot succeed unless the will and power is in the horse - if we want to bring attention to the leg we are asking to lift then we can touch it and say 'lift' (as the cues do get established really easily). Now 2.16 was a good lift but it was too long - see how she struggled with it (but she was clicked) - so for her now that we have seen she is still off balance with the leg at this height (this is a good height), I reckon we need to start at the count of two - and try very hard to wait for her to give you her leg rather than you take it (there was not squeeze on this leg though). Also think about her balance before you ask - are we setting our horse up for success? she is so off balanced in her posture here that any horse would struggle to be on three feet - ask for a better posture first and then click that and then bend down and ask - see this is all setting her up for what is to come - so if we were trimming her we would want her to 'stand' better first yes?
with Carlotta - OK so that was 8 minutes of your life - but it is worth it - so here's the thing - we want her to enjoy coming to you and feel proud and majestic - but for the first approach you click and treat and really do not acknowledge her other than this- you can do this with the others - so make a big deal about it - help her feel proud - I dont see the rubbing you are doing is really doing it for her - if you have to rub is there a spot she loves? the way I would handle this (at least with Star this is how I did it) - waited (believe me it was allot longer than 8 minutes) - made a HUGE fuss (like you hear on the videos with the pad) and then engaged in something that he loves and then stopped - we have finish cues (which are treats in their feedbins so that happens) - the time got shorter between each day and we (I think) were about 2 minutes by the third day and then after that as he started to come to me straight away I would still make a fuss but encouraged the coming to me at a pace and then clicked for that. See the touching you were doing was not really what she enjoyed and do we know if there was any energy to release? I am not sure - but we need to see - so a little rub at her favourite spot for a couple of seconds - then see if she needs to release anything and then do something fun for her and finish it up. See the second approach at 11.22 she was actually releasing energy and that was a better approach and you were more joyous on that one also - feel the gratitude that she is coming to you - it has to begin from within. Trust me this wont go on forever but the reciprocal feelings from you need to be joyous and grateful. The patting is probably not the best option unless she enjoys it - I just cant see she wants this - I would wait after the first treat to make sure there is nothing more to release and then see if she wants to do something with energy (yes play god forbid) and then stop - but you are getting allot better about being patient - but I still 'feel' your frustration - this is why I suggested you bring something with you so that you can amuse yourself (rather than think about waiting) -
With the walk halt transitions remember that the halt has the crunch to finish it off - think about whether the panther walk in this case is actually her trying to get some pride going and she is saying I need the get the courage - yes I can try - so rather than stop her doing this (which if I am correct we are doing the opposite to what we are doing with Sarah) - let her panther walk and 'yes you can do this yes' now whoa and crunch at the whoa - this is a walk halt - then we tweak it to leave the panther walk out?
although I have some of the more relevant research noted in the new clicker series DVDs - this one was not published at the time of finishing it - the difference in this piece of research is that they added the voice to the actual 'face' of the human (in research up to this time it was showing human faces with expressions of emotions) https://www.global.hokudai.ac.jp/blog/how-do-horses-read-human-emotional-cues/
this is important to me as it opens the social engagement door of the ventral vagal circuit - I am certain that we must match the voice to our heart or they know we are full of shit and we are just after something from 'them' rather than being 'as one' - it goes against everything we know I know all this but I can feel the difference in my horses and I know you can too. Test it for yourself
Will read and comment tomorrow.
Here today's proceeds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVI4tLpaGDg&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MowABUA6sPA&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVD7UcZNxeE&feature=youtu.be
With Wotan really I would pretty well say the same thing as yesterday but I can see that you had yet to read them before you videoed - it is too early for the panther walk I feel - and it should be done with the noodle as you need to get the legs stretched out (Carlotta does not often stretch to the point where she really lengthens the spot behind the elbow) - now it is good that the crunches are forming, here though more today than yesterday you have to be careful of the neck - and use the pointer - I can see you started to do this but it often is easier to ask for the crunch and then ask them to look towards the pointer and then click - rather than have your pointer already there - make sense? he is also nearly ready to ask for more before the click to really get these shoulders lifted and with this ask for the posture with the SATS if needed. he is going really well and nice to see only a couple of crunches and then move on (he may not even need the wood anyway now)
with Valeta - interesting choice for a target LOL - OK so what we want is her to touch it - she is very mouthy around it - this can change once we have the touch on cue - but do you have a traffic cone you can put on the ground? it is allot easier for her and also for you not having to hold something out? see one of the reasons why I like the free standing one is that we are here trying to stop her mouthiness (which is normal BTW) so we are all the time trying to set her up for success and not tempt her (as the treats come from your hand). I see the clicking for her head to be turned away and thats fine if that is what you want to do - and maybe it is a response to her mouthiness - just remember that sometimes emotions we dont want to get are attached to the turning the head away (and also there is something about that for us - that we think our horse cannot be trusted with their mouth). Now be careful here - you are starting to develop a chain you will not want - she mugs you, you put the target behind your back , she turns her head you click - and she mugs you, the target goes behind your back, you bring it back out and she touches and you click - but the emotions I am seeing in both instances are the same for her approach towards the target (or you as you are attached to the target) - I would aim for cleaner loops here - if you have a look at the first couple of minutes of the video see what you think and see how many little 'things' get in the way of a 'touch' click treat. With the lifting of the feet I can see her nice and balanced and are you beginning from just a balance shift here? If so the balance shift needs to be a weight shift - that is that the weight is taken off the foot whilst the rest of the feet remain still (not the weight being taken off because of the other feet moving back). There is no problem with getting down to the hoof and taking the foot off the ground with your hand and then clicking and treating this (as count 1) but it was the reflex pinch you were using the other day. Are you able to physically bend down more to get the foot in your hands? The one at 4.15 was really good - be careful you do not mix up the two things we are doing - I can hear you say 'front leg' and expecting her to lift - this is not what we are doing here we are using 'name and explain' and then taking it further to action - the name and explain is "we are going to pick up your foot - and we are going to hold it for... seconds- I will be counting 1,2,... are you ready? OK lets go....1,2, - it is in the book I sent you a while ago. I reckon she is coming along really well and I would still be giving her more to do - of course she is still young - so what about targets - do you have other options for them to be free standing? it would be great to incorporate some a to b's with what she is learning and this would help her with emotional control as well but we need to have free standing targets - I can grab some video of what I mean from one of the DVD's if you like
yea you have a book with you! oh you missed an opportunity straight away - she wanted to and she was following you - but your mind was on a mission that she was not going to interact and you went straight for the book and did not pay her the attention she was seeking - can you see this????? See also at .20 seconds- think about how you were feeling then- why not here try and acknowledge her (as she was you) and engage with her - see we are creating this secure base for her and part of that is being chatty (if you dont want to use your outside voice then use your inside voice) - this is how I would have tried to do it the first 20 seconds - I would use my outside voice to greet Carlotta and tell her how gorgeous she is - and thank her for paying attention to me. I would sit down and then use my inside voice to be grateful that she is in my life and be grateful for the experience - and then see what she did - I would be watching for interaction - see she has not left you here - it is when she leaves us that we need to take the focus off the horse - as when they leave it is telling us we are too much for them (for whatever reason) or perhaps they are testing our promise of autonomy - for whatever reason when they leave US we need to stop our attention - but here at the beginning she was focused on you and waiting to see what you were going to do - this is a really good example of when to listen to what she is saying and when not to - this is really important as this is actually the first time I have seen her do this so clearly (and I am trying to break your habits of being a little inflexible as to what you will be 'working' on)- and BTW this is great as she was seeking feedback from you. How nice was that a 1.11 - OK I would have spent a little time here telling her about the book - yea I know BUT this is to get you thinking about the here and now not what you and she are going to do now that she is with you - (use your inside voice if you like LOL) - I know this is way over the top but you are so so so close. As she was already engaged with you, when you got up I would have asked her if she wants to do something - see as you walked away (when she was engaged) it is kind of ignoring her and not giving her autonomy believe it or not - as doing this changed the rules (I know a pain) - now it is 'follow me or I will ignore you' - she did not move from you really when you got up - so play with her there - it is only when she walks away from you do you take the focus off her so that we can lessen the pressure and give her the choice when she comes back - make sense? How you handled the approach at the end was perfect - if you had done this at .20 seconds I reckon it would have been a different game - but it was a good session to help her see that you are not going to pressure her. I am still not convinced that she enjoys those scratches under the neck - maybe on the wither? or maybe here do a crunch or a bit of anything she enjoys and then finish up?
July 7, 2019
Gosh, you are frying my poor brain, Julie, hahaha.
Now... Valeta: watched the vid and got the same feel as during doing it: she is improving a lot, not really crowding me, but working hard on herself for control. OK, here and there, she is still swiping at me a bit or forgets herself before treat delivery, but sooo much better already. In a year or two, when over the terrible teens, she should be just fine.
I had misunderstood you in your last comments from the day before, and thought you wanted me to do SATS on her legs in preparation of picking them up. My "normal" approach would have been (and I tried this on the video from day before yesterday) to suggest a shift of weight off the leg in question, then click (micro-shape) for each movement in leg, until she puts it into my hand. Then I understood you didn't want this, but SATS instead. Now, I see what you suggest and will try this today (hope it won't rain before I have a chance).
Yes Valeta will come on nicely - with the feet - like I do in the hoof jack trim - it is the next step in SATS
For the target: LOL. Couldn't find my old target (a plastic cup with a handle and a lid), so grabbed the first thing available in the tack room. Hads tried to figure out a good target I could make stationary eventually, and thought about a frisbee which I would then nail on a post. But there you came up with a wonderful simple idea: a cone on the ground. Brilliant! I have the big cone that stands permanently in the arena, but also a number of small ones. Should I use one of the small ones? start with the big cone and I will find a video of what you can do to
encourage exploration and movement with a number of cones on the ground
I must really go back to your notes for the workshop and finish reading them. Somehow lost track of it with all the distractions. Will re-look at the hoof jack trim vid. I don't have a hoof jack myself, but can do a little session when Silke is here for the next trims.
Sounds great, thanks. Do you think I am doing too much with Valeta for her age?
no just without the hoof jack - it is what I am asking for that is important here - but you would begin with 1 second and then extend it
Yes, will try today. Still getting used to talk so much to my horses
no I dont think you are doing too much for Valeta - this is why I think targets are good for her as we are not taxing her body
yep but I am convinced that talking really draws in the social engagement - but if you dont want to you dont have to - just think the words hahahaha
Wotan: I had read your notes before going out, so I tried to activite his walk, with not much success! Also couldn't really get him to extend his neck forward. And catch myself clicking and praising him, despite the shifts backwards. Somehow it's stronger than my good intentions
Wotans walk is quite activated though, but yes start using the pointer as he crunches - 'here look at this' then click. I will find the cone one for you later today - just have to get a couple of things done- it is a little higher energy than you would use for her but you will get the idea
Well, you can hear in my vids that I am really working on myself to talk and praise a lot more. Doing the inner talking too. I just can't be so verbally enthusiastic as you so wonderfully are with your horses. But I think Wotan and Carlotta understand me nevertheless
they understand inner voices just fine - oh I do go over the top LOL
ow, Carlotta: She got me by surprise when she immediately started to interact. Watching the video, I can see her frustration when I just sat there and read the book, while she looked at me! Bugga!
yep!
But she eventually came back after a long while, and we had some tender moments together. Will see how it goes today.
yes it was great she came back
At the beginning she had looked a bit away while standing near me, so I thought maybe wait a bit more und see whether she would approach more. I should have talked to her instead, I think. She is so full of good will and ready to forgive my errors!
Here is Carlotta today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IudFQTX_IZs&feature=youtu.be
Too funny how she tiptoed her way to me and I didn't even notice for several minutes
Valeta: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IksNlsakQA&feature=youtu.be
Still off balance at times. Bit difficult, as she lifts her leg up herself so vigourously
I managed to get all three done (and the dogs walked), just before the rain started pouring down. BTW, I didn not ride Lotta today, as I felt she might appreciate to think about our relationship without the "disturbance" of being ridden.
And finally Wotan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM9tne0pIPo&feature=youtu.be
At least I managed to not click, when he suddenly started to use his neck! ;-)
hahahaha OK be back tomorrow I have to go through my hard drives I have to get rid of a little from the video I want to show you and I will see what I can do for a pic with Stones so back tomorrow. I did see Wotan - he is stretching well so when you ask for the lift have a look at how you are walking - the lift is a crunch so dont try and catch up to him now when you ask - lift yourself and slow down and see if we can get him to match you. with the neck the first one you did after he used his neck as he was using his neck was to pat him - instead this is the time to say can you look at this - pat may (or may not) mean a reinforcer LOL. We need to shape it so we begin small - can you look at this the slightest look at it then click and treat and then slowly ask for more. The one at 3.43 was good - the pointer only needs to be used if he uses his neck though - as look at this before a lift will confuse him - and try and remember to do something yourself as a crunch - at least your shoulders lift maybe? - yes that last one was good!
Valeta - your first click was a little slow LOL - I would have clicked as she took her head to the cone, unless the audio is really out it sounded like you clicked as she went to mug you? the one at 2.32 this is what I mean about unclean loops - see how you are asking her to touch but this is what she is seeing and doing - she is following your hand down to the cone and her mouth is busy and then there is a connection and you click - so what we want is a little motion from you with the hand but she has to do the work not you - if we can get your hand out of it we will have cleaner loops for her...BUT you read my mind and that was a real good one next and you saw that too - this is what we click for - and it is a good one to review as can you see there was no busy mouth? that was good with the feet and she used the cone when this was happening as well. The hind got better and less reflexive the second time so thats good - remember to let go when you click though...did you leave a hind out??? hahahaha - but this is good and she will get more confident at this as you go along - think about when you say 'are you ready' her standing posture is ready - you could ask and then if you see she will be off balance then straighten her up then and then OK lets go
Yep I agree with you with Carlotta - OK so this is what I saw - first Carlotta got a fright! what a good opportunity to wait for her nervous system to come down but it was really good - shame you did not see it (at least it is on video)- but 2.20 it began - now think about this -you want to be her secure base - the thing that scared her was the book - she is off releasing energy and you have picked up the thing that scared her - hahahaha oh poor Carlotta she is looking at you for support - and you are paying attention to the thing that scared her LOL - now she actually got worried there as there may be some displacement behaviours happening (the early eating at the ground seems different to the foraging later but I could be wrong there) if the initial ones were then this tells me that she did not let go of everything she needed to then - she will get over it - but it would have been a good opportunity for you to be there with her as her secure base. At 14.12 what I am seeing is her waiting for you to call her - I could be wrong but it looks like she is not comfortable to come to you unless she is given permission...whats your view here? 15.07 would have been enough for me to engage with her - it was good that you acknowledged her (at last hahahahaha) - I am getting the feeling that you are cautiously getting up from the trampoline (did you notice this?) so you scratch her - still not convinced that this is the spot for her and that looked to be a good crunch from what I could see - so I would leave this for a while now and do what the two of you enjoy but remember that the autonomy really is only beginning to be taken by her - mix things up but remember to let her choose if she moves away - come back to this in a week or so if it is needed - she needs to have some fun (and so do you)
I am loading one of the target ones for you now - I was going to also show you something else with changing directions with targeting - it is the kind of thing I would do at her age - and it is fun but I would only be copying the last DVD I did - so I may as well give you a free code to the full one - this is the code and you should be able to access it all - but the targeting and the changing directions is in part 2 - part one is a bit of theory and much will be familiar (allot has been over FB etc since the release of my DVDs - by people who had bought it or were given it for free - funny about that) - I need to finish part 2....one day!
https://vimeo.com/r/2nMl/RHFNMVk1eW
I have some old video of Stones (most of his stuff was on mini disks and they are not on the puter) but is the profile pic enough or I can send you a couple of old videos
the old videos are not really front on for long but they are part of the first clicker DVD we did so in digital video format
OK so here is one of the ones I remembered I had - this is a little old and it was quite new to Sharney and she and I were quite new to eachother but you get the idea - I did have a more recent one but I have given up - I do need to do this again and 'send' her to targets -0 you will see a little of that in the second part of the DVD I sent you the link to
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dcc1oaz21u14bn4/Targets_comp.mp4?dl=0
July 9, 2019
Now, re-reading all your directions (so many details to pay attention to). will try to get Wotan to stretch out down and forward and then slowly lift him. Struggling with this, as not entirely sure how to do it right.
About Carlotta and her problems with walk-halt transitions. Yes, I do let her PW when she feels the need and anxiety. It is still difficult for her to stop, even after a PW or two. I don't know whether she is anxious or whether she thinks she is supposed to do this, as I got the cues mixed up somehow. But my feeling is that there is nervous anxiety behind it.
I have tried to ask for stop (with voice preparation) and when she paused just slightly, click her. This of course stops her, but it's hopefully just intermediate stage. Maybe I should put the walk-stop attempts towards the end of the session, so she had the opportunity to walk off some tension before we try? Sometimes she starts to PW after canters. She seems prettty happy with cantering (loose rein, just lifting my inside hip and slightly putting outside leg back) and downward transition to walk upon me just dropping my cue/energy and saying "walk".
Your suggestion to end the stop with a crunch gets me a bit puzzled. She is starting to make the crunch a default behaviour, but too often still uses her neck. So, is it really desirable to ask for crunch to end the stop, as I might not be able to reward her for it, if the neck is involved? Anyway, will see what happens today.
For the target video, I can't find your code, when I click on the link it just says: buy them for ...$$. Oops, sorry, scrolled down a bit further and found your tageting video with Sharney, so this is the one you meant, right?
July 10, 2019
Just watched it - great things to do and try out with the cones and the pointer etc.
you will be waiting for me on friday LOL as I will be a little later than this and I also need to leave midday monday so it all works out quite close to eachother. As soon as I can video again I will do the power walk again and then if I can get a decent one I will slow mo it
OK so you will have to explain what you mean by the issues with the walk halt transitions - I went over what I said last time and it was not something that we had spoken about that I can see? the PW could also just be her way of getting you to acknowledge her?
our aim in all of this is to end everything with a 'crunch' it is not a real crunch as we are stopping from motion so it will end up just being a transition to halt carry weight from behind
no the code for the DVD's should just be you have it for free it is not the targeting one that is different
well I just clicked on the link for the DVD and now I have used it as it said thanks for your purchase - I will send you another link and you need to click on the 'watch clicker training...." text
OK so here is a new promo link to the DVD - you will need to wait till tomorrow or later tonight as I cannot back date the date (as it is 9/7/19 in USA time - tomorrow)
https://vimeo.com/r/2nPo/WHp4QnQ1ZU
now you click on the words 'watch clicker training....." not the public intro where the play sign is and the picture is - make sense?
July 11, 2019
Here are today's vids. Can't take anythong tomorrow and Thursday, as there are some lengthy Drs appointments. But we will see.
Valeta targeting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tltmnUDBlzA&feature=youtu.be Wotan more WIP https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK9LDXGBaL4&feature=youtu.be Carlotta, eager to play https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Mtgu47n6oQ&feature=youtu.be
About Carlotta's issues with stopping from walk: she always had wonderful stops from just me tucking under my pelvis a bit, without reins. But since a couple of weeks or maybe months, she doesn't seem to be able to stop most of the time. I feel her getting a bit anxious (I think) and she can't stop, but goes off in a PW instead. I let her do this quite often. I am not sure whether she simply doesn't understand my stop cue anymor resp. interpretes it as PW cue, as you suggested earlier. Or whether it is some anxiety. It's strange, for sure.
She does know my verbal cue "psst", as she responds to it when she has been standing still and then decides she wants to start walkin (without me asking for it). When I say psst, she stops again. But doesn't when I give a soft rein cue and say psst or woo (my whoa). Whenever I see a hint of stopping (which is more like a short hesitation), I click now, and then of course she stops. But that will not be a real solution, of course. It isn't a big deal really, but in the long run, I will need a stop on cue again
Oh OK so the 'stopping' is when you are under saddle? yes I suspect now the cue you are asking for PW is in fact the same cue with your pelvis? I am not sure what you mean about the psst verbal cue (as you say she responds to it when she is standing still - which means she has already stopped LOL) but are you saying she does stop to this but not when you add a rein and say woo.... why not go back to basics and teach a cue you want to use on the ground? - will look at the videos as soon as I can this morning
July 12, 2019
hahahaha Valeta was ahead of you - you know you need to work up to all these cones hahahahahaha - I bet she is great - seeing these off and on as streaming is hard today as internet is very slow. I personally would prefer we work on targeting a large cone on the ground, not one in our hands but that is just a personal preference for me as it takes our hand 'out' of the equation - sorry be back later
yes see there is frustration happening here because she does not know yet what you want - so we are clicking any approximation to the cone - we do not expect that she will bend her head down and touch at first -there were a couple of times where I would have clicked - where she turned her head away from the pointer and a little nob of the head towards the cone...BUT 1.44 was wonderful (you do see what she did before you were looking though at the beginning) - now even if that was good, she still has to get the touch on stimulus control so I would still be clicking for approximations for a while and after that also was great - what do you think I think she is better when she is thinking and being a little busy? her manners are much better and this also keeps you and her at a distance? but have to wait for the streaming again - be back
yes the only thing I would change is not ask for too much too soon so click and treat attempts first with the stationary cone and then with the movement - the reason she went away is first your criteria was too high for a beginner and secondly it was far too long and as there were too many times when she got it wrong her motivation reduced - make sense and how did you feel?
with Wotan, we have to get him out of this pawing habit with the logs - so lets turn this into something I was thinking to ask for a lift as soon as he begins to lift the leg but see how he is standing when this happens? I feel we need to nip this in the bud - any ideas? so the power walk is looking good, I think we need to increase the momentum now and make it stronger and more powerful and when you now ask for the lift lets see if we can keep walking and lift for a couple of steps - also lets make sure you are using a voice cue here as well - AND he is ready for the panther walk BUT lets move a little quicker and longer first (as you know what will happen when the panther walk begins) AND when that momentum begins to happen you will be walking more in the riding position rather than in front. Oh look how he began at around 3.33 that was beautiful! did you notice it at the time? that was nice at 5.10 - try not to scoop the pointer rather lift not scoop - I also think he can move away from the logs now -he is so nice
Carlotta is really going well here - now this 'pause' at 2.47 I think is her ready to release there are subtle differences in her body language - I would stay here with her there and see what happens....yes she released at 3.04 - so lets use this as a yardstick - if she stands like she was here and does not move away from you then she is asking for a moment and she just wants your support (as social engagement) - if she actually moves away from you then you go and sit or do something else - make sense? those little lifts at 5.15 were perfect - shame you did not click them hahaha - you know she does not like you touching on the neck area there - try and see if you can touch the wither instead - nice at the end - but when she is trying to crunch and she is doing the neck then you need to help her understand a different option not ignore the try - so here ' front foot' tiny crunch would have done it - but she is really looking engaged
July 13, 2019
Very quickly: Despite strong wind and occasional spooks, Carlotta did something great today: during canter work, I asked for a downward transition and right away, she went into a stop from canter, and into a wonderful school halt! Wow! Also tried a few stops from walk, and it was lots better. Upon a very light request, she stopped, very slowly did one or maximum two little steps of PW and then really stopped. Very nice! We are on the way.
fantastic
This morning's session was ridden of course. What was great: when she went so quickly from canter to stop and school halt, she took me with her and didn't throw me forward, so she must have used her hind end beautifully. Such a pity I didn't get it on video
If you can put the Stones photos separately without much trouble, great. If not, don't bother, I will manage with what you gave me.
Valeta: I had only used the cone in my hand for the first couple of times, to make things easier for her. The smart cookie figured it out really quickly, huh?
Watching the video, I felt very strongly that I should have stopped after 2 minutes! Then things went a bit downhill, because she was not sure. Yes, good idea to click earlier, when I get movements in the right direction. Wasn't sure whether you would like that, so didn't
Wotan: Yes, he loves those logs! And he was so proud of himself when he managed to put both front feet on it, did you notice?
I can put them away for a while, if you think that this helps nipping the thing in the bud. Will try to get more lift in the power walk, but I have difficulties with this. Somehow he doesn't lift very high. Something I must be doing wrong. By "faster" do you mean that I should start running a bit? Or just accelerate my walk?
Thanks for the reminders about my position and the way to use the pointer. I am getting carried away and forget some stuff, hahaha.
Carlotta: makes a lot of sense. And yes, I will pay attention to when she stops and stays with me, and give her time to release tension.
Oh, these crunches.... OK, so when she uses the neck, I will try to acknowledge her try, then say front foot then tiny crunch. huff,puff Interesting journey, but quite exhausting mentally, hehehe. Wasn't it amazing how she immediately stayed with me from the beginning of the session? Sooo pleased with her.
One strange thing to report: this morning when I was moving around her during saddling, she suddenly bent down and slightly nipped my upper thigh. I wonder what she wanted to tell me there? She has never done such a thing before.
I said: No, that is not on!, then asked her what she wanted me to know.
She didn't say more about it...
Question: when she tries to crunch and uses neck and her front feet are well in line, what do I do? Just say something like: Hm, good try, but let's try again? Or what else?
Sorry for all those questions. Don't want to make more mistakes, if I can avoid it.
Horrible wind right now, so I won't do anything today, apart from maybe a crunch or two with Carlotta before putting her rug on.
And tomorrow, not sure whether I can fit something in. Otherwise Friday it will be. Thanks in the meantime!
I noticed the feet on the logs - but that will create habits that you wont want LOL - the lift problem is because you stop after you ask - you need to keep walking and ask every couple of strides and when there is a good one then click and treat - yes Carlotta is going great....mmm saddling and then a nip???? well she may be sore or she did not want to ride LOL - maybe she is just working herself out and wants a little more time? no if she uses her neck put the pointer down so she follows it and then click and treat
I tried a bit tonight. Horrible, that wind, I could hardly get her rug on her! We played with walking a bit together and she did a series of skips, then straight into Panther Walk. Then stood at my side and went up into a levade. I think she loves that one.
Did I tell you that we didn't have lessons with Cliff for months? There is private trouble which affects his contact with sutdents and friends. I think we might never have lessons with him again. I am not happy about it, nor is Chris, but at least he has taught us some very useful basics we can build on. We are having Anke Hawke over every 3 or 4 months, as it sounds, so we do get a bit of quality tuition on the regular basis.
I can see the broad grin on your face now, as you were never happy with Cliff
The nip from Carlotta wasn't while I did something to her saddle, just while I stood at her side for a moment.
I think it was something like a friendly little play nip from her, like she would do with a horse, but not sure about it.
Yes well you saw my smile - frankly it has not hurt you or Carlotta not to have any lessons with Cliff LOL. It may be that Carlotta is feeling more confident to express herself - so for me I welcome this in my horses as it tells me that there is something going on - it is usually me that has to do the adapting. I will try and scan them all now
July 14, 2019
Managed to get sessions with all three in between showers. Wotan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmU344RyZ-c&feature=youtu.be
I still have big difficulties with finding clickable ups in the PW. Valeta: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnAW51Gx3gg&feature=youtu.be
Her manners seem to have improved a lot over night, much more polite and less mouthy.
OK will look in the am. glad that the manners are improving - if you are speaking about the power walk with Wotan it is more likely that the cue for lift in the crunch is not yet on default - we have to get the crunch happening
Carlotta: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rU3rIXzZnlU&feature=youtu.be Dangit, I must learn not to scoop with that pointer
Yes, true, no crunch default yet for Wotan. Getting a lot better with Lotta, I think.
With Wotan, you need to make this flowing more now so dont stop as soon as he lifts keep walking and ask for a couple - this is one of the reasons you cant find clickable moments as you are not giving him time to work it out - so longer walk in both - head down stretch the spine.....goooooood keep going, lift......keep going, ask for lift again keep going, click when there is a lift in the shoulders - and of course when the crunches are better so will this be. You dont leave your cue on in the lift - you ask and if he does not walk and then ask again - you are dulling him to the cue as it is left on - make sense? and what is happening is that at the time he does something you both stop so the cue for lift is going to turn into 'stop'. you are getting into the same habit with crunches as you did with Carlotta - he is using his neck - so be careful and you are walking with your cue for Panther walk again - I reminded you of this the other day - you will make it harder for yourself if you dont check here LOL. That second crunch at 3.16 was better you got him before he used his neck allot. The crunch at 3.57 was really good but you were not watching- you were watching his neck but he lifted in the back hahahahaha but the next one at 4.18 he was using his neck. you have to really pull yourself up here because it is so hard to get the neck out if it is always reinforced - have a look again at 3.57 - before you start using the pointer - but gee he is a great boy
with valeta yes her manners are really good - now when you are asking for the touch on the cone give her room so move further towards the camera - not parallel to the cone does that make sense? - we dont want 3.26 to happen - remember we take the treat to them. She did not seem as reactive with the feet here - did you feel that?
SO with Carlotta - when you have time just find the spots she loves you to rub - you seem to move your hand very quickly from area to area - it takes a horse/ human rub more than 60 seconds before it is actually enjoyed by the horse - she may not like being rubbed at all - but you are not giving her the chance to show you - think of a rub as mutual grooming - then we can tell one way or another if in fact she likes being touched (her skin may be very sensitive - Star hated being touched but now he really loves a wither scratch - and I mean wither, on the vertebrae and until my fingers cant anymore. With her bunny hops try and be with her and ask her to stretch her spine rather than use her neck - you have to stop treating this - she is always being reinforced here - so always be on the look out for her use of her neck and offer her a suggestion as to how to change this - often all that is needed is for her attention to be focused for a second on the pointer in front of her (and down a little) to enable the back to be stretched - make sense? that was good at 1.32 but it looks like you did not click? at 1.34 those first couple of strides were lovely and I suspect part of that reason was that you went with her and you also were striding. it was nice how she came back to you - but cant you see she does not like being touched this way? I would rather her be clicked and treated here if you need to do anything other than praise her verbally and fill your heart with gratitude - this is the key - really being grateful that our horse approaches us. That was much nicer at 3.35 - OK so when she uses her neck dont ignore it - as she is using the neck offer her a better suggestion - so it will be neck look here -pointer -OK? and then there is no harm in clicking and treating now and again for looking at the pointer - not all the time - so it would go - neck - good try - look here - pointer - yes well done- now lets try again - (remind her about the pointer - look at the pointer) good work click and then now and again bring the pointer in only after the crunch has begun. See here at 4.04 also - dont ignore the neck - show her a better way - so that would go - ok lets try that again and this time lets look at the pointer when you bunny hop. the crunches are getting better - can you see this?
I had sent this to someone I am helping and I realised that it may be useful for you if you have not already seen this series - I am basing the power walk on what he says - https://www.dropbox.com/sh/6cktbo8lafxu69w/AADd1PQqKUwMagsu7DNbxUeQa?dl=0
Thank you, will have a look tomorrow.
For Wotan: yes and yes and yes - guilty in all points. I go out with the best of intentions then somehow forget what you said, or part of it, or apply it wrongly. big sigh
Will try again next time, when the weather clears up. IF the weather clears up ... really rotten at the moment.
hahahah well it will stick with you eventually
... if you don't give up before, hahaha.
na never!
Brave girl!
nope I just know how hard it can be for sure - I was just lucky with mine If I still haven't managed by the end of August, we can maybe play some simulating games, you being the horse, and each time I do it wrong, you whinny in disgust or kick at me, hehehe.
mmmmm maybe we will have some time with one of the horses at the place
:-D
Carlotta: Somehow I tend to immediately start giving her scritchies and forget that she doesn't like this at the spots I do it. Will try really hard next time not to touch her but just send loving thoughts to her etc.
watch what she does - honestly I feel if a horse does not 'fall' into our rubs then we need to try a different spot
the videos I have in dropbox are from Gerd Heuschmann - I really like his approach as far as what is important to focus on so if you can download them
Valeta: yes, she was better with her feet, but at times I didn't do it quite right. It will happen soon I am sure. She is so much better around me now. Will try to get her on the stationary target for longer, hopefully by the time Silke will come for the next trim.
slowly does it just increase the time slowly - I am not a fan of stationary targets as I want my horse to feel he or she can move if we have gone over threshold
OK, makes sense.
July 15, 2019
Had Carlotta in arena very briefly this morning (no camera sorry), in between 2 showers. She was so sweet, came to me right away and was all keen to do things.
We walked a bit together, and she hopped and frolicked around happily. I didn't touch her, just told her lovingly what a wonderful girl she is and how lucky I am to have her. She came closer, so I reached for her withers and scratched it what she seemed to enjoy, as she stretched out her neck a bit and wiggled her lip.
Asked for a little crunch and she used her neck a bit, so I said, OK thank you, let's try again now, and she did a beautiful one. I made sure to click early. More walking around happily (was her suggestion), then I asked again and she did a quite nice one, so I pointed a bit with the pointer and she dropped her neck a bit and took it out. Click and end of session. She followed me all the way to the exit. I think we do have a very nice breakthrough now.
the spot? you mean the place on the wall? it will probably go here where there is a blank wall Yep. Sometimes, it is a bit disturbing when you have a yellow wall and hang a painting with a pink background there, hahahaha
so that is a great improvement with Carlotta and her closeness to you. I bet that made you happy - and yes see you can do this with the crunches. yes I agree you do seem to have a great breakthrough
I am still smiling Julie. Gives me motivation to continue and get those $%§$%% crunches right....
yep I know those days when my smile wont shut down
July 15, 2019
oh the plan was to get this one finished and then get the next most pressing one done and as Jerious will be home soon tax is easier as I dont need to concentrate with all the noise he makes
So happy that it was briefly dry enough for a little ride. Carlotta was a bit cold and stiff, as it felt, so we did only 8 or 10 minutes, all at the walk. Lots of walk-halt transitions. Seems that she has overcome whatever gurgled inside her of anxiety or whatever, as she responded really nicely on a minimal cue. And could stand still without having to be reminded. She offered a whole series of school halts, impeccable with lifted leg and very much lift in the withers. She got lots of praise and rewards. Also offered a crunch when standing. There was a little bit of neck, but not bad really.
Once unsaddled, I asked for 2 crunches, and they came very nicely and without using her neck. BIIIG praise and fuss and goody Thanked her and took her back to paddock.
sounds great with Carlotta - hahahahaha you are in the zone
I am working very hard on myself to become more precise and less clumsy
July 30, 2019
Back to the land of the living... Played with my lot a bit today ð Wotan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwRB1E_AvY8&feature=youtu.be
Carlotta: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7CHlB2wwqU&feature=youtu.be Valeta: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IvLDY2fyQU&feature=youtu.be Jul 31, 2019, 2:25 AM ð will look later this morning - I need to finish off some assignments first Jul 31, 2019, 9:58 AM No problem at all, Julie. I am off to my weekly shopping. Power is now off so will have to wait now thought i could look on thr phone but too long for battery. ..hopefully be back with power this pm Jul 31, 2019, 3:56 PM hahahah Wotan is great - now lets get more speed up here - and when you trot I would start stretching his back more so the target out in front and then lift - I have some videos that I need to load with Star doing this so stay tuned. In the crunches you are not looking at his standing posture at first - it is so important to be strong about this - there is a message on one of the videos of the project that Kathy has refused to answer - I am not prepared to but I can copy and paste it for you if you are interested - it proves exactly why I am a pain about this - The internet is slow now so I will try and get to look at the others I will stream them first It is so great how you are waiting for Carlotta now and she is paying you back for sure. When she shook then I would take this as a pendulation and asked for some mastery - but it was fine as she came to you anyway but you could not help yourself around the 2.28 mark hahahahaha. Now when she came to you (or started to) and you clicked - which was good - go to her with the treat (rather than 'force' her to come the rest of the distance) - make sense? that crunch was good but you clicked on the paw LOL - however her crunches are so much better_ they are so much better and your timing was really good for the last two - and you seem to have really changed your approach to her! ð1 Valeta is great! NOW watch how she was standing for that first leg lift ð I would back off here and just ask her to shift weight - so get into the position of leg lift "are you ready?" touch the cone (confidence) then ask for a little weight shift and click treat - make sense? but you have to look at her standing posture - look at how she is standing at 1.50 - SATS will be good here as well 2.33 was because she was not standing well - so lets do SATS with her here as well I reckon! and at the moment her cone touch is masterful for her. See at 3.46 she tried to adjust herself but you are not really 'looking' hahahahaha ð1 Oh I want all my other horses I have had here painted so I will bring pics when i see you AND I will be paying for them!!!!!!!! Harry I have a good one and I will find two good ones with Star and Sharney ð1 I think I have indeed, Julie. We have a tender relationsship now ð While I played with Wotan, I thought to myself: bugga, I forgot about the leg position! ð Will try to stretch him out and speed him up. He is such a darling boy. Yes, same for Valeta, I knew I hadn't waited for correct leg position. Tried to correct myself in the following, but not enough to notice, as it seems ð Isn't she so much improved with her manners? I am very happy about this. Will be put to test Friday in a week, when hoof trimmer will come. Yeah, OK, SATS it is for her then. Will be my pleasure to paint whatever you want me to, Julie. Will give you mates rates ð Puter off now but yes so much to jump and smile for Going out now to feed and rug horsies. Thanks for your always valuable feedback! Aug 1, 2019, 1:14 PM Julie, when does your plane arrive in Gold Coastg on the Friday afternoon? Greg has lost the info I gave him and
August 8, 2019
Sorry for the long silence. There was the clinic with Anke over the weekend, and on Monday the coronary angiogram. Good result: nothing wrong with the heart. Now... we will have to investigate further about that chest pain... Felt pretty knocked out, just coming up to surface right now, but still a bit wobbly. Dunno what they have put in that anaesthetic! ð Will try to get a couple of vids later in the day, weather permitting. Lots of rain announced for at least a week. Wish I could send you some. Greg has shown me a helpful feature on my camera, to lighten up the picture. So I was able to take more visible videos and photos during the clinic. Will apply it from now on, so you won't see a black horse on black background anymore ð Aug 8, 2019, 11:11 AM glad medical was fine ð fantastic if you can lighten your video!!!!
Here are the youtubes, much better with light. Maybe a bit too light! Will have to experiment a bit with it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oImr_OOwpzs&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPNIWy8yMJc&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rhd81Qmt6-k&feature=youtu.be
August 9, 2019
With Wotan - he is going well - I would be asking for more forward down (so he stretches his back) and then a little more of crunch in the lift now. But good. He spooked at the noodle in the wind and the second time it is very clear - and you see it- but dont click when this happens, it really can poison the clicker very easily - let him come down on his own just use a supportive voice - he begins to expel his energy at 4.17 - let him expel it all and wait for his approach - this is classic the Sarah stuff - until he expels it all he will be jumpy on the windy day that it is . your click timing with the crunch was maybe a 1/2 second too late as he used his neck so remember to use the pointer - the second one you did but you did not use it - you lifted it but he has to look at it LOL and then click - the lighter video is good for him - maybe a little too light but not allot
nice to be able to see Carlotta clearly - she is still stretching back not up and then back in the crunches - her front legs are too far in front maybe by 3 cm or so. I would probably ask for one crunch only - remember everything needs variation and then offer something to do that is different from a normal routine - this may spark her interest more perhaps - as she she finally came to you , back to the same crunches - just a thought. She started to look more alive at 8.11 - it did not seem to last though - is she OK?
there is not allot to see with Valeta but it looks like a good SATS session - it was good you went slow with the lifting of the front foot. I dont know how you do it with the wind - I would not be out there LOL - a little darker and it would be better- but it is hard as it seems pixelated at my end but it may not be as I am viewing through 4K monitors
Aug 9, 2019, 11:51 AM
Haha, the devil's in the detail yet again.... Wotan is very easily worried, as you will have noticed by now. Yes, I have to work on myself to give him more time to work through his states of worry to the end. OK, will only use my voice cue for him to lower and lengthen when walking with me. At this stage, I have difficulties to get him to move with more energy and faster, as he always hesistates to "follow" my body suggestions. I so wish to have you here to work with them and me!
Carlotta... yes.... sigh I don't seem to be able to get her to drop that leaning back when crunching.
For quite a while, Carlotta didn't seem very interested in moving and doing PW, apart from a little bit here and there and the canter skips. I can't see anything wrong with her, as she is soft and responsive under saddle. I have the feeling that she is a bit grumpy with me, because I play with the two others too, and she always makes a point that SHE is my horse, and nobody else!
I only had them out twice during these weeks of health fumbling. Maybe this cames into the game as well. She was a lot more connected when we did something together every day. Will try to do what you suggest with her next time. Seems there is another week of horrible weather ahead. So much mud in the paddock that my boots get stuck in it at each step.
Had the hoof trimmer here this morning, and it was a real pain in the...
Wotan spooked at the noodle it was blowing around - that would spook my horses also so I would not worry but see it as an opportunity to help him control his nervous system states - these kinds of opportunities are priceless. So take advantage of them. You need to walk faster for him and let him catch up - it has to be fun for him - dont wait for him to catch up just go for it and see it as an opportunity to get some exercise and then as soon as he comes with energy - click and treat and finish it up. Carlotta - you need to use the pointer - crunch - not good - pointer look at pointer click treat - what is happening is you are putting it there but not 'using it' LOL. I dont see what you are seeing with Carlotta - I think you need to make the session really short - when she comes to you make a huge fuss - and the same again go for a run - the thing is you are wanting connection - I dont aim for this - I aim for play - there is just so much we can do once that happens. So dont overthink this and try and have fun with her - she is very introverted and play will bring her out of this a little but you need to stop overthinking with her. Oh I wish for some mud!
the trimmer was a problem?
Yes, I know that he spooked at the noodle, but there was other stuff that worried him, like my washing on the line that was flapping almost vertically in the air (bed linen, so a lot to flat!). I dont know if the videos that I have done for Sarah will help you but you would need to download them - can greg do that as it is part of a powerpoint presentation and I dont know if you have a program to look at a powerpoint?
No, not the trimmer, but the strong wind, the horizontal rain, the cold, 4 dogs jumping and barking (Silke's two and my two).
Yes, can ask him to do this.
the washing would be the same thing - it is not a biggie - most horses would spook the point here is that you can see it as an opportunity to work through the stuff - Ok I will send you the link
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0b9vpru7volsxz6/Presentation.pptx?dl=0
you cant view on line as it is huge and dropbox wont open it, so if you can download great The horses were cold and shivering. Had to put a warmer rug on Carlotta before we started, and even the two others with their Icelandic coat were visibly cold. I can't tie Wotan at the moment, as the first time I did he pulled back in full panic, so have to work on this when we have better weather. I held him for Silke, but he was so wound up that she couldn't even pick up one foot. Usually he stands well when you do this.
I only work in the wind if I want to actually work on nervous system hahahahaha
Hahaha
honestly we all have been there with the weather and trimmers or vets etc - dont worry about it as you cannot control this - no one could
Unfortunately we have a lot of wind around here, so I have to work in the wind most of the time, otherwise I would never get anything done. Even Carlotta is cool enough to be ridden in fairly strong wind.
Ok so see it as the opportunity and just think of one small titration only - let him work it through and stop
Of course, Julie. We put Wotan into the arena and did Valeta's feet instead. He was so excited that he did lap after lap in gallop, doing flying changes, bucking and squealing and whinnying. Made Valeta all wound up too, but we managed to get her done at least.
hahahaha been there also
We decided not to do his feet this time, as we both didn't want to get knocked over and hurt. Even Carlotta was a bit difficult for trimming today.
it looks like the wind is huge it is here also and personally if it was like this for the trimmer I would cancel and just do them myself - but I do them the week before she is here in any event. OK so this is another one I have prepared - this one has no video explanations yet but this was more for me just to make sure that if there were questions I could direct people to the values of this stuff - here is the link
https://www.dropbox.com/s/e6bhpvg7ia807pn/movement%20benefits.pptx?dl=0
OK, will try to not analyze, but just play with Carlotta instead
OK so play with yourself not her - when she joins in (if you are not dying with exhaustion) click treat and stop
Thank you, will go through your links asap.
on one of the videos in the presentation (the first one) you will see I have fastforwarded the autonomy one - that was on purpose - LOL Sarah said to me that the video was damaged as it went too fast hahahahahaha
Would it be a good thing to bring Valeta into the arena as well, as she is very motived to come to me and play with me all the time.
yes but separately - I reckon when you stop movement you can try and crunch yourself to stop and see if she begins to model you
Must get my paintings together, as we have an expo at the local town hall and I am bringing a number of mine.
OK oh great for you!
Not very keen on it, as around here there is not the kind of public that buys my kind of paintings (too expensive for them, I only sold 2 or 3 at those occasions). But they asked me whether I would help out and fill one of the walls with my painting, so I said OK.
A bad thing when you don't HAVE to sell anything. Makes you lazy and unmotivated to promote yourself, hahaha.
it is all good exposure though
Yes, sure.
Aug 11, 2019, 10:22 AM
More miserable weather here, I get soaked, each time I go out. No chance to fit in a ride or play with the horses. Ground is so wet and muddy that it almost pulls the gumboots off my feet! Even my arena is covered with puddles. groan
Got Wotan's feet done yesterday. I had brought him to the arena and cleaned his hooves at liberty, to put him in the mood, haha. All was back to normal when Silke came, and she could do him without problems.
Too funny, he tried to bow in the middle of it, with one of his hooves in her hands
Hope I can fit a little ride in this arvo, when sky clears up.
there are plenty of open source office programs that one can use - there is not really anything I can do as most of the world reads them and as it is a presentation it has to be affixed to the power point - so I am not sure why you cannot work it as the videos are simply mp4's. thats great with Wotan - all your horses bow so maybe you can use that as an asset - but be careful as bowing is not really a good thing for the horses body when it is regularly done as it compresses the spine down (not up) so the vertebrae compact rather that expand.
Ah, I see. Good point. I don't ask for it anymore, just acknowledge it when he does it. Funnily, Carlotta has recently been starting to do it in the paddock when she sees me coming. Copycat... Never mind for the vids, I don't want to insist too much with Greg, not easy when he is stressed
Aug 13, 2019
At 5 pm I finally had enough and grabbed Lotta for a little ride. By the time she was saddled, the rain had almost stopped, so we had a quick "stroll" through the things Anke and I had worked on recently. Very nice, apart from the fact that yesterday I had placed the feed bucket in the mud of the arena for Wotan, and each time we came near, Carlotta found this very snortable. Of course, no problem at all when I lead her over it after the ride.
Before going back to paddock, I asked her for a crunch, which she did reasonably well, then moved a bit, so I asked her to readjust her feet, which she did. And suddenly went into an almost perfect crunch. Biiiig praise. She did 2 or 3 more from her own initiative, and I told her how wonderful she is and gave her handsful of lucerne chaff.
Aug 14, 2019
sounds fantastic it is so great when this happens - the leg position is the clue
Aug 14, 2019, 5:15 PM
Now... to be able to capture in on video, haha.
Finally a sunny day, but I was too pooped after 1 Dr's appointment, 1 with the physio and then the shopping and putting it away and portioning dog food. So, no riding today, but seems that tomorrow will be dry, so I can go back to my daily routine
And hopefully play a bit with Valeta and Wotan as well. Wotan is packed with energy and enthusiasm, now that he is back to health. Aaah, those schools above the ground he does, and when he gallops past me into the paddock, I better duck to the side, as his whirling hooves throw big lumps of mud and soil high in the air!
I just love it how Carlotta is now thinking about making crunches her default behaviour. Hoping that she will use this, instead of bowing, in the future
Aug 15, 2019, 2:44 AM
if the crunch is done the way it needs to be then for all those reasons that I proposed in the draft movement reasons presentation - it will be as it feels good to them
Aug 15, 2019, 10:24 AMAug 15, 2019, 11:45 AM
Going through your presentation now. Typo on page 11, second paragraph: conformation, not confirmation, I think.
Oops, sorry, page 12 hahahaha ta - damm spell check!
Page 19: What? You call it Tiger Walk after all?
Good reading, thank you, Julie.
Makes me wish even more to see you here in a not-too-distant future and coach me and Carlotta closely. I have the feeling we would get over my mistakes sooo much faster!
no Sarah will call it a tiger walk so as this is for her I have done so LOL - oh you will and are fine!
Hahaha, she won
Hm, I feel we could do so much better when "tapped on the fingers" directly, as it's called in German.
Aug 15, 2019, 3:48 PM
we all can! but she did not win - what she does with her stuff is her business but I believe that she can if she wants
Of course. Are we using Power Walk when not close to Sarah? Managed to get not only a ride, but also a little play session with everybody.
Carlotta crunches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtZgpskEL8c&feature=youtu.be
Valeta: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFtAlHgU960&feature=youtu.be
Sorry, forgot to take the halter off for both. I wonder whether Valeta is starting to think that she is supposed to back up, when I ask for SATS, especially for the hind legs.
we are using both the power walk and the panther walk - if we are using the panther walk for confidence we are using the tiger walk LOL - be back tomorrow just about to feed up
Wotan: https://www.youtube.com/user/ylehey
Felt like a breakthrough today. Such a cute badass moment at 1.17. His very first one!
Aug 16, 2019, 2:22 AM
the first two crunches were good the one on the right side with Carlotta was a little necky - but huge difference - remember to cue when you are going to click and treat - we want all these things on cue- if she does it and you have not cued cue when she does it. golly that wind is awful was that valeta whinnying? when you are at the target I would change hands and feed with your outside hand - you will find you are less cramped that way.There are times when I was not sure exactly what you were clicking for early on though - at 3.12 nice standing position there. Careful your timing with the click is not that slow that you are clicking at the time she is backing up so I would now begin to ask for 1 second in the air with her feet before clicking ( we dont want backing up to be lumped into the behaviour) but great - I think she needs more challenge! Wotan is walking a little too close to you at the beginning - my thoughts are that already (and yes I know you have not done anything yet) is that he needs more challenges also - have I shown you some of Shawana Karasch's A to B videos? Yes that was great when he jumped and played - he got a little spooky after this so remember he needs to release this energy (good and or bad it still has to come out). So are you asking him to panther walk around 2.30? if so and we have that much without an attempt go back to the noodle for a bit - see what will happen otherwise is that the cue for walk becomes your Panther Walk cue. I think you need to challenge him more and dont 'drill' things - so if you want to practice the power walk do one lot and once you click leave it alone - the energy is a little lower than I think he prefers and you dont want to look for perfection - now one of the things I really do agree with intrinzen about is variability and we can have variability on an arena as well as long as we dont fall into drilling - it is supposed to be fun and he wants to have fun - watch you dont begin to click his neck in the crunch - see at 4.50 - bring attention to his wither and then ask for a crunch - the next one was better - he is not interested in these today - to me he just wanted to play and if this were me it would be play day with a crunch or to thrown in here and there - let me know if I had done the AB's for you and I will - it can be done easily with one person and he really would enjoy it I reckon - it is also a good thing to go back to when we have question marks going on in our heads and are not sure what we need to do
Aug 16, 2019, 1:10 PM
No, haven't seen Shawna's A-B videos.
Running out right now and trying to fit a little ride in, maybe between 2 showers.
Aug 16, 2019, 4:18 PM
OK the internet is tied up with updating my laptop with a new operating update - cant load them now but will tomorrow for you
Thank you, Julie. No hurry.
Carlotta: funny how she seems to have trouble doing "neckless" crunches when I am on her right side. Often noticed this. Ah, OK, so I will cue her when she offers crunches without me asking (which she tends to do more and more often now), and only then click and treat.
Valeta: yes, it was her whinnying (she had finished her food, hahaha). Yes, I was too slow with clicking a couple of times. Will try to do better. So, what challenges are you thinking of?
Wotan: OK, will wait for the Shawna vids to find out what challenges to use with him. Wasn't sure about what to do next.
The cue for the PW was only an attempt. Sorry, didn't do this very well. I seem to throw this in automatically at times...
Yes, saw that I clicked for the neck at one stage. Woops.
Play day... makes sense. Any ideas what to play with him? I run out of puff very quickly when I try to run around with him
Maybe bring out the long poolnoodle (on the long stick)? Or the whip with the flag attached to it? And see whether he is interested in it by now. And drag it in from of him, and see whether he wants to step on it? Like Steinar does.
Or bring out my horse ball (it is about 50 cm in diameter and has a handle)? I suppose trying the mat again isn't a good idea...
Or maybe touching? Or see whether he wants to step on the pedestal or into the tyre?
the ball is good but I will load the ABC's for you - I will check to see if there is anything different on Carlottas right side
Ta
Aug 17, 2019, 5:26 AM
you will have to download them and yes it is large - when you have let me know so I can delete them
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/msbsuleyqft46v0/AABBjteozzR8IhMNDkOIgQy_a?dl=0
Aug 17, 2019, 10:26 AM
Thank you Julie, I will.
I noticed one thing this morning when putting out the hay: Carlotta's back looks more "up" to me now, even when doing nothing, i.e. standing there or eating her hay!
She was so lovely today when I rode her: offering crunches very often when I asked for standing still and long reins. And some of them looked-felt very good! I had some rolled barley with me, and she got those as treats when it happened. And she did lovely lifts at walk and canter.
yep that for sure is a sign that the crunches are working as their standing posture gets better able to support their spine. Sounds like you have every reason to be jumping for joy!
It is not big yet, but I couldn't help noticing
The credit goes to you, Julie, and I am very thankful.
I gave Lotta one of her favourite wither scratches and told her that she is just AWESOME!
Aug 17, 2019, 5:02 PM
oh you are doing it all!!!!
I couldn't do it without you!
Aug 18, 2019, 12:29 PM
Greg says he has downloaded the Shawna link, so you can delete it now. Thanks a lot, will watch it asap.
Took out the camera with the fisheye this morning, while it was still dry. Somehow it still didn't come out right, grrrr. I had adjusted the focus, but it was a bit blurry nevertheless, and I must have slightly moved it when turning it out, as the left side wasn't visible. This is such a pain. Next time, I will climb out and stand behind the camera for turning it on, so maybe it will finaly be acceptable. Not even worth sending you the link from today.
The only thing that come out right were the tops of the trees, bending madly in the wind, hahaha. Carlotta must have been a bit worried, as she used her neck a lot for the crunches under saddle, so it was difficult to find a clickable one. She did give me a good one before going to the paddock
She hardly offered any PW either, and the canter was less fluent than yesterday. She must know it, when the camera is on....
hahaha I have had those days with the cameras - yep I reckon they all know when the camera is on
Aug 18, 2019, 1:57 PM
You would think that they'd rather show off?
ha na!
Aug 19, 2019
Just watched the first two of Shawna's A to B vids (22 and 23). Hmmm.... OK... so would you like me to do this with Carlotta? Or rather Wotan and/or Valeta? Would need to recruit a helper. Maybe I can ask Amber.
Shawna's voice is a bit painful for me. Have the feeling that Sarah might be the same, haha. Will watch some more tomorrow.
Watched the 3rd one (24) as well.
Went back to your last explanation about Wotan. Ah, I see, it's mainly for playing with him (and maybe Valeta). Will see what we can do on the next a bit dryer day....
play does not have to be with another person - remember the cones with Sharney we just go to one after the other and then change directions criss cross etc - they could all enjoy it for sure but I was thinking of Wotan and Valenta but Carlotta may enjoy it also - yes the voice!!!!!!!!!! and YES Sarah!!!!!!!!!!! OMG she sends me audio messages all the time - and they say nothing! she clearly likes the sound of her own voice - today - 5 MINUTES on what aussies call a bathroom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OMG, I better get some headache pills with me for the workshop. My ears are very sensitive
OK, thanks. Yes, will create some fun situations and take vids for you
If I can get my gumboots unstuck from the mud, that is....
Aug 20, 2019, 1:10 AM
hahaha
Terribly cold this morning (9°C), and the wind almost blew me out of the saddle. Carlotta didn't overly like to have to work in these conditions, but did her best for me. We stopped after 10 minutes and I asked for 2 crunches after unsaddling, which were very nice. plus a couple of unrequested ones, and I quickly said "lift", so could click and treat her
I must figure out how to make it clear to her that I want the same good crunches from the saddle as from the ground. Maybe take the pointer with me and hold it out?
Not sure whether I will be able to do something with Valeta and Wotan today. Will wait another hour until they have finished their hay and then give it a try if it's not raining by then.
why on earth do you ride in so much wind LOL - if the crunches are not really formed under saddle it is usually a capacity hint - try to build them up with being on the ground and using some small weight sand bags or weights you use over our ankles
? What are they for? To lengthen my leg? Wouldn't it be enough to just step a bit more into the stirrups?
Hahah, I ride in that wind, because otherwise I wouldn't be able to ride at all during the whole winter and a lot throughout the year!
no they are instead of your body weight to build her capacity slowly
the acquabag is what intrinzen recommend but I dont like it - I can find pics if you have forgotten what they do
I remember the aquabag. Didn't like the idea of it either. I think I know what you mean. Will see what I can find and use.
I have 2 kg weights from my Pilates and gym training. All I need is to find bags to put them in. Or maybe string them together and hang them over the saddle? Viva baling twine....
Um, maybe they are only 1.5 kg. Also have 0.5 kg ones.
yes just hang them over the saddles the smaller weight is better - just a couple of minutes for a while
Aug 20, 2019
Today's games.
Valeta: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl8VQGlb5Og
Wotan worried about the new toys in the arena: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REigXHjY-8E
Wotan playing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBbaFKsAV9g
Aug 21, 2019, 2:52 AM
thats looks like a good start with Valeta - how did you feel she enjoyed it? a bit of blending with the foot at the end though LOL
With Wotan I would say too much too soon in that wind - the sensory experience was too much. In the playing video he was nervous you could see him jump with the click - I would back off too much for him and start slower and he did not really want to be near the objects (see the movement sideways at around 3.16 - this is the reason I suspect he leaves you - it is too much for him all at once. the situation is making him very nervous - you can see this when you use the scraper - now you are clearly telling him here that you dont care about what he wants - you want to to use it - if it is essential for sure but I would separate this from my time with him playing. If you need to do it then, change the cues, put a lead rope on or something - anything to let him know that play is over and he cannot choose now to walk away - make sense? he handled it well at the end but for me I would worry about sensitising him to things accidentally as he was very anxious for the most part and I think it was just a sensory overload - what do you think?
Aug 21, 2019, 9:47 AM
I think you are right, Julie. He felt very anxious. I thought he was becoming better in the second session, after I had removed the mat. He did have some fun moments and produced himself proudly. Thought I would use the scraper a bit, as he knew it well from my times with me, but maybe he has forgotten. Yes, fine, will separate it from the play sessions. Almost impossible to do something nice and relaxed in these conditions. I tried to move away and wait, each time he flinched. But apparently the whole situation was just too overloaded.
He did greet me with a nicker when I came back in the evening with the hay. Gosh, almost impossible to walk in that mud, and I get stuck with that heavy wheelbarrow. Just soo fed up with it all. And I can't let them into the dam paddock, as neighbour (who owns it) doesn't want me to while it's so wet.
Yes, I think Valeta enjoyed it. I got a bit worried when she tried to pick up the mat by the handle, so quickly tucked it under again. She seems very eager to explore and try new things. Blending?
She is incredible: so bold. Hardly anything seems to worry her.
yep it is always better to stop and ask ourselves why is this happening... too much going on - yes the mat did make a difference for a bit but horses do not flinch unless energy had been built up and is yet to be released
I noticed that he lowered his head a lot after the nervous flinches. Thought it was processing and calming down?
So it wasn't really releasing energy?
blending is using positive and negative reinforcement together - pressure / release and then clicking and treating - IMO that is always a no no. Valeta is at the exploring age and she is doing well and no doubt because you socialised her young Must learn to read him better.
no head lowering is a taught behaviour - calming signs is what you will see when energy is released - the nervous system getting back to homeostasis
We have different opinions about that one, but trying not to do it too much
OK so when you blend - the horse is avoiding pressure - which means he or she is working against that pressure - why are we providing a click for something the horse has already received reinforcement for? what is the horse responding to as a reinforcer? and there is a wealth of legitimate evidence to demonstrate that this is how poisoned cues occur - in fact this is the only way they occur
Will give it a think.
Aug 22, 2019, 8:43 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up_ZlA7_l2c&feature=youtu.be
I have put some light-coloured wrap at the end of the pointer, maybe better visible for the horses.
the crunches are heading in the right direction - she still is going back before up but that will change as you start to watch her chest now that you will be able to take your eyes off her neck a little and think about what you are clicking for. I feel you should not be clicking her back legs like this though as it is a reaction she is giving you rather than acknowledgement of left leg right leg - I think if you start at her hoof and not go further up until there are no reactions y(further down) - nice slow increments it may be easier for her
Yes, OK. I thought if I ignore the first vivid pickup of foot and only click for the calm second one, it would be fine, but I can try to work on it more.
She does look a bit annoyed bit it, true.
Yes, still doing the going back, but as her head and neck carriage seems so much nicer, I am just so happy about it!
The riding video now is too dark again, I suppose because it was so early in the morning that the arena was full with shade. Will have to remember that. Will also try to place the camera at the other end and see whether this works. fumbling around
Aug 22, 2019
yep it can be hard with cameras - the wind here in the last couple of weeks prevents me from using the Pixio but I am not feeling great unfortunately in any event. I had a bowen session last week and two days later I have not had as bad a pain in my hip than I have now in over a year. It is taking all my energy to do everything and I have a very sick cow that is sending me to panic attacks. Every time the problem happens (she cant put her neck down) it is early in the morning or later in the evening and I manage to clear it. But the last time a couple of days ago it was within vet hours but he could not come. She had two really bad days and I was going to put her down yesterday but I could not get her. Today though she is allot better but I know it will come on again. The only other thing we can think it could be is toxins so trying to get a toxin binder in her feed but she wont take it. However I have worked out if I put it in some hemp oil and then in her feed she takes it. But she is dull and I am trying to feed her a little at a time. Stars feet need doing before next week but I still cannot bend down without allot of pain. So here is hoping things dont get worse for next week. I am taking a horse anti inflammatory ( it is a rub gel) and it works quite well so here is hoping as it is not getting worse just so mad that a whole year nearly without this pain and it has now come back overnight. However I can sit without allot of discomfort so as long as I can stretch my leg in the plane it should not be too bad
if Carlotta looks annoyed that is a hint we need to change things
Agreed!
Oh you poor thing! How horrible. Is there any chance acupuncture could help with your pains? I do hope it will settle down, so you can enjoy the clinic. I am watching myself each time I sneeze, as I really don't want to catch another cold or bronchitis before the clinic.... Oh and your poor cow! This must be absolutely draining! Can't you get a trimmer to do Star's feet?
no acupuncture does not help - I cannot afford the trimmer here every three weeks - so I do the three weeks and she comes at 6 weeks. His problems are with long toes and as much as I like my trimmer she really is not as good as me (Yeah I know but when I was maintaining his feet they were the best they ever were - but at the moment I cant - he has old bruising - I suspect I know what it was from but if I am not able to trim it is going to happen again. Managed to get the toxin binder into my little one so that is something!
I need to go back to the hip boy he is missing something - I will be making an appointment I think but as he is 6 months in advance it wont be a fix at the moment and when this all started he said nothing was wrong BUT they are not able to take xrays of the tendons and that was what was damaged I feel when I got the hip replacement the first time
I am a little pissed at the moment but Jerious is livid - on Sarahs page are some clips of her presentation and gee - she has taken my idea from my DVD and not even paid me the respect of saying anything to me
well that is why I dont breed and only have what I know I can handle with numbers
Bugga, she has done it again!
this is my idea (as she has no experience of applying this to horses) and just tweaked a little more
it is not a copyrighted thing it is just about respect for my work Yes, same reason why I stopped breeding long ago. Just too many idiots around! I was maybe stupid to take him from his former place, but I just couldn't bear it anymore to see him so neglected.
I think it's just plain disgusting she did it. Copyright or not.
no you were not stupid for taking him back - but he is thriving with you - maybe someone will come along that is the right match
Yes, I am hoping that the right person will turn up. It makes me happy to see how at home he is, and sad at the same time.
August 26, 2019
Got my daily ride, despite the black threatening clouds. I put the washing outside, so I suppose it will rain soon, LOL.
Carlotta is incredibly motivated. Very obedient and trying to do the right thing. I am working more on myself to pick up the reins so gently that she "doesn't notice". Getting a lot better with it by now. Pracitising Anke's "lifts" (engageing her core via mine), and she is getting the hang of it and does it better and better and longer and longer.
She also offers me lots of very elevated, collected canter and the occasional series of PW steps. Had I lonly had the camera on... sigh
The canter skips are really pronounced, so much that I had to ask her to take it more easily. She is not naughty at all, just so very creative and intelligent and definitely an over-achiever. I hope we can come to an agreement on how high the canter skips are supposed to be...
Now, walking the dogs, then a little siesta, and then putting a few blotches of colour on Harry. Question: is Stones the right colour in the painting? I suppose Harry's is the same? If you want it a bit darker red, I can add a couple of layers of ruby at the end.
Aug 26, 2019
No Harry is not really as chestnuty as Stones picture. yes Stones was very red head Harry has a little brown in the chestnut (not allot). Carlotta sounds like she is feeling great
Yes, she is fabulous. Blossoming so much! â¤
OK, will give Harry one or two layers of brown then, once I get to it
Aug 27, 2019, 3:56 PM
Experimenting with another corner for the camera.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP_C7E4xI4A&feature=youtu.be
Fumbling with crunches again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSTccqvko_s&feature=youtu.be
Aug 27, 2019
I will look at the videos when I can tomorrow
I just wanted to show how Carlotta's back is straighter now.
Aug 28, 2019
Carlotta is just too far away for me to add anything constructive unfortunately in the 15 min one. So with the crunches yep she is getting better - so when you move the target down for her to look at try and move it down when she is at her highest part of the crunch not when she is coming out of it - make sense? she got better on her left side and you did not need the stick for her focus
Yes, that's what I was trying to achieve with Carlotta. The leaning back is gradually fading away. Towards the end of the ride, she did a few nice lifts and PWs and high skips.
Oh, and a question: should we bring boots for the workshop? (in case we do something with horses)
August 29, 2019
yes you are supposed to wear boots at any time we are with horses and there will be opportunity- I wont as there is no way I could walk with them the way my pain is at the moment. I will let the link run for a while as it wont load
See you tomorrow afternoon. Looking forward to it
September 3, 2019
Hope you got home without too much hassle. Talk later.
yep eventually, plane was late and that meant no traffic coming home - which meant hub could have picked me up and saved 150.00 LOL but good to get back - bet you went straight to Carlotta!
No, as it was pitch black, but I did exchange love with hubby and doggies
Went to the horses this morning and Carlotta seemed pleased to see me
great!
September 3, 2019
My report about the 2 day workshop with Sarah Schlote:
Now, here is my report about Sarah Schlote's workshop about Somatic Experiencing for Horses. Might be pretty long, be warned.
I apologize in advance for my maybe at times not very accurate descriptions, as I am still struggling a bit with the scientific terminology ;-)
On Saturday morning, Julie and I arrived first at the location, beautifully set in the middle of lots of steep hills. Very picturesque. The property belongs to Jane who owns half a dozen horses which she was willing to make available for working with during the workshop.
Jane had provided a little house with a spacious room for the workshop. All equipped with much love and knowledge to make everybody feel comfortable: from the lovely sofas and armchairs, with cushions and a rug in the centre of the setup, to well thought-out snacks which presented a great variety and tasted very nice.
Julie, upon Sarah's request, had brought her video equipment and filmed all the sessions. Jane's friendly little dogs (a red Heeler and a small Poodle) came in from time to time and made the audience smile and want to interact with them.
We had participants from all corners of Australia, as well as overseas. From Perth/WA, from Adelaide/SA (one of which I had met quite some years ago during a Deb Bennett clinic), from Ballarat/Vic, from NSW, and then from South Africa and Canada! What an international bunch!
There had been a 5 day workshop (which was more about human fear issues, I think) just previously to our 2 day one, and 5 of the participants also were in the current one. They were mostly people with a lot of Uni education and the according degrees, like psychologists and such. After everybody introduced themselves, Jane had a wide-eyed stare around and said: OMG, all these brains in this room!
Which made me chuckle inside. I have spent the last 4 decades closely around two people which are highly intelligent (my husband Greg and Chris, my best friend), so I am not easy to impress in this sector ;-)
It was something like a flock of swans swimming around together, and one wood duck (un-degree'd me) floating nearby, haha.
Sarah started her presentation with a detailed talk about her project to help horses (and their owners) with strategies to overcome anxiety issues. It was very interestingly presented and very worth, after I had previously seen Sarah's corresponding introductory videos.
After lunch was planned the first session with a horse. But before, Sarah did some more talking, and then we went down to the grassy arena, where waited Bubba (I think this is the mare's name), with 2 pony friends to comfort her. Bubba had a history (after having been ridden before by, as it seems, very experienced owners and developping serious problems over time, which could only be assumed from vague hints) of being left alone for 3 years in a 250 acre paddock, without any animal or human company. When Jane resucued her, she was unapproachable and needed a lot of patience before she even allowed Jane to approach her, which she did eventually, especially around feeding time.
She had participated in daily sessions during the 5 day workshop. This first day, Sarah wanted to see how it would go for one of us to approach her, and I volunteered, so Sarah said we would watch her a bit from outside, then go in with her together and see what happened. The others participants had gathered at the fence and gate and we stood there for a while. The mare seemed somewhat shut-down and not at all wanting to engange. She had turned away from us and looked unhappy and tense at times. Jane noted that she was also in pain from her front legs.
After a few minutes Sarah said we should go in with her, so climbed through the fence and moved a bit closer to her. The mare remained in her state and Sarah started to question me how *I* felt about what we were doing, which I found somehow weird and puzzling, as I had expected that it was about the horse.
The mare still wasn't interested or able to make contact or at least try, and then a neighbour nearby started to cut a tree with a chainsaw which switched her off completely and she wandered away. At which stage Sarah decided to end the session and we went back to the workshop room.
There was talk about the Polyvagal Theory.
Sarah had made a little drawing to illustruate a cute pun: a horse's head with the (horse's) comment: "Ya mean Ponyvagal?" I amused myself rectifying the drawing a bit and gave the horse a cheeky expression, which Sarah liked, when she discovered it.
More talking.... Some of the particitants of the previous (5 day) workshop kept bringing up questions and topics that fit much more into that one than in our current one, and Sarah answered, so there was a lot of time spent on this. I hoped for the next day....
Day 2:
Julie (as the first person who actually did this) over the last year had started to work with Sarah's concept and put it into practice with Star, one of her own horses. Upon Sarah's request, Julie had filmed the sessions and put them together in a video which Sarah was intending to use during her presentation, to demonstrate the process.
It was planned to show the audience these videos and explain the why's and how's, but instead, Sarah only showed one of the videos and only very brief snipptets of the other ones, out of context, so it was hard to understand the purpose of what was shown.
Then we should have gone out, but instead, Sarah went through the whole explanation of the previous day again which took a lot more time. So, in the end, that was all that happened and no chance at all to practise and put to work her theory. *sigh*
I got one good insight out of it, which was that, when a horse is anxious and starts to act up, we wait for him to "come down". What usually happens though is that we think that the horse has come down, but in reality has only come down partly and is in fact still in the faux security zone, instead of in the real comfort zone. Which means in general that we, at this moment, ask again, and the horse goes up again in his reactions. We wait for him to come down... ask again, he goes higher up. Etc etc etc. Until comes the explosion.
While, when we wait until he truly reaches his comfort zone, and then ask again, things will not go pear-shaped. This is called widening his window of tolerance. I am not completely happy with this term, as tolerance for me means that he is not really OK with the situation. I would have called it window of acceptance. Just for the record....
Jane was somewhat worried about Bubba, her rescue mare, and Julie had offered (away from the workshop frame) to give her a short CAT session, to see what this would do for her. So, during one of the breaks, Julie went out (I filmed the session for her), and Sarah came along. Julie started entering the paddock from the far oppositie side, leaving the gate open, so the mare could "escape" if she felt the need. She did her CAT exercises, and within 10 minutes maximum, she could walk all the way up to the mare and stroke her forehead and ears!
This had been meant to be a private session, but Sarah chose to show the video to the audience right away, probably because she felt that CAT blended nicely in with her method...
We then had the final discussion, with input about their impressions from the participants. I gave my point of view, which was that really the intended things had only happened partially. Indeed, I felt that choosing a traumatised horse for the "demo" wasn't the most lucky of choices, as (as far as I had understood and expected it) the purpose of the workshop was to introduce us to Sarah's theory and work and then put it into practice. Which did not happen, and I pointed this out, and said that I was quite disappointed about it. Which was not to Sarah's liking, as I had the impression.
At the end of day 2, Julie offered to Jane to work a bit with Bubba via clicker training, which would possibily help her to open up some more, which Jane accepted happily. It was decided the we would come back the next morning (in private, so to speak) and Julie would introduce Bubba to CT and do some basic stuff with her. Which Sarah was also very interested to learn, as it seemed.
Jane would also bring in one of her other horses (with no particular issues), so Julie could show him about the beginnings of Intrinze, i.e. crunches and panther walk. Quite a challenge indeed to try this in a single session, but very intreesting to see what it would bring. I was going to film the the sessions, so Jane could see them later (she wasn't available that day).
I was actually looking very much forward to this, as there would finally be some interaction with horses. But it didn't happen. In the evening, Sarah sent Julie a SMS, cancelling and telling her that they would visit the Wildlife Sanctuary instead!
Julie and I decided to make a trip to the nearby Surfers Paradise instead. We visited the local Wax Museum (boy, that chamber of horrors was spoooky!), then walked the beach promenade and had a little something in one of the beach cafes. Then off to the airport, where Julie dropped me off, then brought the rental care back and checked in herself.
I sat happily in the Qantas Club for an hour and a half until ready for boarding my plane, which took off in time, so I had no difficulties to find my way to the shuttle bus in Melboure and got home to Ballarat, where Greg picked me up at the train station.
Had a good night's sleep and a lovely brekkie, and now waiting for Chris to go out for a ride together
September 5, 2019
Just checked on my former exchange of PMs with Sarah and found this:
Absolutely, there will definitely be horse time, interaction activities, and experiential learning with the herd
So, we have it in writing!
Anyway, water under the bridge now.
Interesting this morning: after the ride, Carlotta again was worried and didn't want to go to the MB. She stopped and wanted to turn around and walk away. I asked her to stop (as I wanted to do a bit more with the SE stuff) and calmly look. Which she did. Asked her again to take a step and she did, but still very hesitant. So we waited a bit longer, then I allowed her to walk away and to the pedestal in arena, and dismounted there.
There was no apparent reason for worry today, as I had turned off the electric fence and there was just a breeze, so no idea what her problem was.
During the ride, she offered some nice crunches (and I quickly said "lift" haha), and also lifted beautifully in the walk.
I am currently putting the PW on cue - the intended one is just a verbal one, i.e. "up" (to distinguish it from the crunch and the lifted walk). She gave me one good try when I asked in the beginning, but wasn't quite sure what I meant. So we went and picked up the dressage whip and I waived it forward and up while saying "up". She got that very quickly and did it for me. After two good tries, we ended the session, even though it had only lasted 6 or 7 minutes. But I wanted to highlight this for her and let her know how well she had done.
the apparent reason is not apparent - it is real to her - for whatever reason she has a memory of something that makes her uncomfortable - we can only guess as to why - I would think about CAT for her. The way I did it the other day incorporated the polyvagal stuff in as well, asking for a come down - the problem is of course that as Bubba needed to 'come down' this meant that I was actually tipping her more than what we would do (in the past) in CAT - from a CAT perspective this is why we wait the 10-15 seconds...still not convinced with the actual time frame though LOL. I can see its usefulness with very small titrations by adding CAT to the process - so I really went more into deactivation and activation. The activation was not intentional BUT they were small enough titrations to help her understand calm means she was reinforced and if she was feeling a little anxious but wanted to try and stay she could learn that she could deactivate and all is still well. I suspect that as a result her confidence was growing and this is what allowed me to touch her - I dont know if you heard Jane later but she had said she had never seen Bubba look more alive and engaged. So it is hard for me now not to think about it in these terms. yes good to put the PW on cue - is there something other than a whip? she could see your hand just as easily? oh and the horse time - yes well her planner said it all also LOL
oh another thought - Sarah went to praises on her website about a learned helplessness article - I personally thought it was crap and her response to Kim was targeted at me (I am convinced) however Bubba was showing signs of learned helplessness and yet Sarah chose to work with that mare all week (as they all did) and then with us - the way I manged the session the best I could felt the correct move - it seemed to also add for me the extra 'bit' that can help horses who have learned helplessness open up and not be afraid of showing their emotions and come down the other end feeling confident in their decisions - just some thoughts
Good ones, Julie.
About Carlotta: I will work a bit each time when she shows these anxiety moments. And add CAT, as you think it's a good idea. She is familiar with CAT, as I used it successfully for reducing her grumpy moods and her refusal to be caught and haltered in the paddock.
Gave the exercise with straddling (was that the term?) along a pole, having it between the lateral pairs of legs. Did this with Wotan, about scraping off the mud and excess winter woolies. He took to the idea fairly quickly, but had problems placing his hind legs along as well for longer than a step or two. But some really good tries.
I fully agree about Bubba and learned helplessness.
Will try again with the pole tomorrow and maybe give it a go with Carlotta too.
I am using SATS with the pole straddle - only front legs at the moment - yes with Carlotta if there is the hint see what reinforcer works for her
Carlotta trying the straddling with pole: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehdF-ItitAo&feature=youtu.be
Putting PW on cue with Carlotta: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UTsOPy4jEg&feature=youtu.be
Wotan and pole: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UTsOPy4jEg&feature=youtu.be
Sorry I didn't pay attention and it's a bit blurry, but he is doing very well, isn't he
with the pole all good but I would have stopped at the front legs - Jec is clear that we need to get that working well as confidence is not high initially. I like the SATS way personally as there is no pressure and release. I will see about a video this morning but I have to get to town. what cue are you using for the PW? I could only see you using the target in front and your walk? but yes Carlotta is going well - try not to use the target for the crunch if you can help it until (or if) you need it - so ask without it first as it is actually helping her go back rather than 'up' - Wotans link is not there
10:27 AM Sorry, here is Wotan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFDPK1hrRgU
I got into trouble because of a badly timed click in the beginning, so he thought he was supposed to put his hoof on the pole... But we ironed it out, and the third one was pretty impressive, IMO.
haha - OK it is not about walking along the pole it is about straddling it - I could see he was getting a benefit early on and he zone out when his two feet were straddling - I think when they start to move their quarters away then we need to stop and think about giving them the benefit of the two fronts straddling and then move back or off and start again - otherwise we will collect the quarters moving away with the clicks- but you did eventually and the second and third attempts were better - at the end when he did his stretch I would not click this (I know he was lovely) but he needs to stand there so if we start to engage him with other things we will never get him standing and coming down hahahahaha - I fell into this today also as the crunches began. I wonder at the end there if you stayed would he have stayed longer? could not tape today but will try and get my act together tomorrow. I had more assignments to mark and they were all fails
did you want anything scanned from the book or are you going to get it? I will buy it, once I get my act together. Thank you for offering though xx Ouch, the students will be happy...
Haha, yep, we all keep falling into the trap of being so amused, pleased and excited about what our horses offer us that we tend to reward it occasionally!
I did this, because I felt he had mastered himself, was brav and trying to stay calm and wait for my cues during this new task, then he just had to do his default behaviour to settle the internal steam down. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is what it seemed to me.
He was so eager to do the right thing, and once he understood what I really wanted, he did it very well. A bit fast at times (I always get over-achievers. LOL). I should have grounded myself (instead of becoming so enthusiastic about the matter) and waited more and just allow him to stand. And yes, should have done the same thing at the end of the pole, instead of stepping back. I am thinking about trying it off lead. What do you think?
New project: Petra, my cleaning lady, is worried about her daughter,whose hubby bought her a horse. Steph doesn't have any experience with horses and has a somewhat teenager mind (not always patient and rational!), so Petra is scared that there will be trouble ahead. So I will go and give her and her horse some introductory coaching and advice which, I and Petra hope, will change her attitude sufficiently to keep her safe.
Pity I am retired, so don't have any insurance cover for teaching anymore. But it should be right when I do it for free.
Another thing: I hope you didn't find a too devastating situation when you came home (about your cows). I don't want to stir it up, but I am worried for you and hope you can cope.
When Carlotta did the pole, I found it particularly cute in the beginning when I showed her the pole and asked whether she was ready, she seemed to nod a bit. And around 5:00 when she tried to throw in a school halt.
sounds like fun with Steph. I think that we all want to reward the tries and their motivation but remember that this straddle is for proprioception LOL. I am going to do it off lead with SATS and the pointer - it does force us to work with less pressure. Just explain that there is no insurance available and if at any time you think that there is danger then direct her to an online course and she can seek guidance. oh yes it was very hard with the cows - a few shocks but it has happened and yes I cope after the tears finish. Allot went. I was more numb about the weekend and teary with the cows. I am nearly back on track now so trying to finish up the course and provide the first on line and want to get that CAT video on the CAT page
yep the 'ready' does work LOL
I am using it more and more. You maybe cannot hear it in the vids, but I do
Chris and I will be facing some sad moments too soon, I'm afraid. Flamenca, the mare I had imported from California 20 years ago and sold to Chris 10 years ago (still being able to ride and see her whenever I wanted) had developped DSLD and it looks like it is time to let her go. And maybe 2 others of her oldies as well. Carlotta's dam is now 25ish and has lost a lot of weight and condition after her last foal. It wasn't supposed to happen, as vet said it was very unlikely she could ever become in foal again, so Chris gave her to her stallion Rev as companion, together with Flamenca, who also wouldn't be able to have foals anymore. They had a lovely time together, and we were totally suprised when Nikita's belly started to round. She gave birth to the most beautiful little brother of Carlotta. But now she doesn't seem able to pick up weight again. Not sure what Chris will do about her. Pity I have such restricted grazing area, but it's already overstock with Wotan here.
Oh, here is the link to my youtube channel, just in case: https://www.youtube.com/user/ylehey/videos?disable_polymer=1
oh it is sad but it is a risk with the breed unfortunately
Yes, I know. When we found out about it, we stopped breeding Flamenca. A shame, because she is such a lovely mare. And over the years, I had 3 foals from Nikita, the first two were grey geldings. Then I gave in to my preference for dark mares
September 7, 2019
Forgot to ask: can you recommend any online course for Steph? I was thinking about giving her introduction to some bascis and then point her to a local riding instructor. Problem is I don't know how they are teaching...
it depends what she wants to do ð so thats first - what is she into -R or +R?
Nothing at the moment, as she is a complete newbie. Petra told me how she went riding with her neighbour (who, according to Petra, weighs some 150 kgs!!!), and then out on her own!! When her mare "refused to go forward", the fat neighbour hopped on her and got very physical with the horse!
At that moment, I said to Petra I would come over and assess the situation and give explanations about how to handle a horse and everything I could do to help.
I will explain about -R, +R etc, do role playing and demos and see what I can do for the mare. Not the smallest job in the world, I suppose...
What Steph wants, is ride!
Petra hopes that I can do something to make Steph understand that she needs to learn some basics, then take riding lessons.
Oh, imagine: Petra, being the very kind soul she is, offered to take Wotan with her. She has a smallish pony already.
But I don't think this is a solution, as she too doesn't know much about horses, so she wouldn't know how to handle Wotan, and on top, I am sure that her grandkids would go into the paddock with him. Which is absolutely not a good idea. But it was sweet of her to offer.
if a person only wants to ride and not learn about a horses emotions and what is best for a horse then I guess it will be parelli - sorry but unless she is clearer with what she wants there is not really allot I can suggest - I agree she is not the right person for Wotan at the moment but that can change - so question her on what is important on when she rides - how does she want the horse to carry her (as an example) then we can find the right fit for her
Thank you, Julie, will get back to you tomorrow.
fingers crossed you get some insight into her dreams
Sounds like she is willing to learn, she just fell into the wrong hands. Will let you know how the session with her goes.
Carlotta gave me such a wonderful ride this morning. After the little warmup walking around, as soon as I picked up the reins, she immediately collected herself. I hadn't even asked yet! Walked so proudly and beautifully with her core engaged. No camera in sight, of course
We did a bit with PW, and she happily went into repeatedly, making a real effort. Nice canter with skips as well. It felt just glorious
Having an exchange with Steph (and Petra, her mum) right now. Have told her some basics ideas, and she seems very enthusiastic about learning how to do it right and wants to understand her horse and treat him with respect and knowledge and love.
He is a Standie, 14 yo, ex sulky racer, with apparently a lot of learned issues, like being pushy, stopping dead, running backwards etc. Steph is also keen to learn about clicker training. Sounds promising! And Petra is also very keen to learn all this, so she can apply it with her pony.
And yes, maybe she will progress enough so she can take over Wotan, who knows
great about Carlotta! oh another Star LOL
I love Standies. Had two myself in the past.
they come with their challenges as with anyone, but my two are rescues and they are harder than any rescue TB I have known LOL.
well Star was not a real rescue until he showed me hahahaha
That was Ramona. Don't have a photo of Orlando handy.
http://www.lemis.com/yvonne/Photos/20041229/big/ramona4.jpeg
Oh geez, and I thought Standies were comparatively easy-going. Mine were. Taught them to gait, which both learned very quickly, and then we had the most wonderful rides in Kuitpo Forest.
Forgot to ask: can you recommend any online course for Steph?
I was thinking about giving her introduction to some bascis and then point her to a local riding instructor. Problem is I don't know how they are teaching...
it depends what she wants to do . so thats first - what is she into -R or +R?
Nothing at the moment, as she is a complete newbie. Petra told me how she went riding with her neighbour (who, according to Petra, weighs some 150 kgs!!!), and then out on her own!! When her mare "refused to go forward", the fat neighbour hopped on her and got very physical with the horse!
At that moment, I said to Petra I would come over and assess the situation and give explanations about how to handle a horse and everything I could do to help.
I will explain about -R, +R etc, do role playing and demos and see what I can do for the mare. Not the smallest job in the world, I suppose...
What Steph wants, is ride!
Petra hopes that I can do something to make Steph understand that she needs to learn some basics, then take riding lessons.
Oh, imagine: Petra, being the very kind soul she is, offered to take Wotan with her. She has a smallish pony already.
But I don't think this is a solution, as she too doesn't know much about horses, so she wouldn't know how to handle Wotan, and on top, I am sure that her grandkids would go into the paddock with him. Which is absolutely not a good idea. But it was sweet of her to offer.
if a person only wants to ride and not learn about a horses emotions and what is best for a horse then I guess it will be parelli - sorry but unless she is clearer with what she wants there is not really allot I can suggest - I agree she is not the right person for Wotan at the moment but that can change - so question her on what is important on when she rides - how does she want the horse to carry her (as an example) then we can find the right fit for her
Thank you, Julie, will get back to you tomorrow.
fingers crossed you get some insight into her dreams
Sounds like she is willing to learn, she just fell into the wrong hands. Will let you know how the session with her goes.
Carlotta gave me such a wonderful ride this morning. After the little warmup walking around, as soon as I picked up the reins, she immediately collected herself. I hadn't even asked yet! Walked so proudly and beautifully with her core engaged. No camera in sight, of course
We did a bit with PW, and she happily went into repeatedly, making a real effort. Nice canter with skips as well. It felt just glorious
Having an exchange with Steph (and Petra, her mum) right now. Have told her some basics ideas, and she seems very enthusiastic about learning how to do it right and wants to understand her horse and treat him with respect and knowledge and love.
He is a Standie, 14 yo, ex sulky racer, with apparently a lot of learned issues, like being pushy, stopping dead, running backwards etc. Steph is also keen to learn about clicker training.
Sounds promising! And Petra is also very keen to learn all this, so she can apply it with her pony.
And yes, maybe she will progress enough so she can take over Wotan, who knows
great about Carlotta! oh another Star LOL
I love Standies. Had two myself in the past.
they come with their challenges as with anyone, but my two are rescues and they are harder than any rescue TB I have known LOL
well Star was not a real rescue until he showed me hahahaha
That was Ramona. Don't have a photo of Orlando handy.
Oh geez, and I thought Standies were comparatively easy-going. Mine were. Taught them to gait, which both learned very quickly, and then we had the most wonderful rides in Kuitpo Forest.
I only have rescues. a little different when they have been abused rather than just off the track
Yes, I bet that is the case.
I will never understand how somebody can abuse horses. Or any other animal or human, of course. Will see Steph and Petra tomorrow and give them an introductory theory session with demos and roly playing. Seems there will be rain and wind, so won't be able to go outside and see the horse. But hopefully on Tuesday.
well there is plenty to go around - not to mention the 'do gooders' who abuse through equine assisted therapy LOL and they dont see it - oh message from Sarah that she wants to call me next week and wanted a time etc - I said when she is free I am pretty easy - I either pick up or I am asleep!
Hahahaha.
I was going to load the CAT one today and wanted to take a look at the earlier one when we were down there - shame Sarah did not show that first before the CAT
Yes, correct, all those well-intented ignorant people do so much harm and aren't even aware of it.
I got pissed off and thought tomorrow!
Looking forward to see them up and running. Even though the one with Bubba wouldn't be very interesting, I bet.
no they are intentioned! they are ego driven and do not practice horse is first - otherwise Bubba would not have been used for 5 days
I fully agree with you.
oh I cant publish anything of Sarahs but I will send it to you - I can only publish mine as it was supposed to be private. I was thinking of making sure jane was fine with it but thought why she is not identified
have fun
I feel a bit disappointed with Jane. Have the feeling that Sarah convinced her not to ask for any further help from you. Won't question her motifs.... Anyway, talk later.
yeah maybe - I think it is best I contact her and make sure she is fine with me publishing the video first - well if she wants help she has my DVD's as I gave them to her as a thankyou - she probably will never look at them
Her choice if she wants to be that stupid. My feeling is that she can do with help, as she doesn't seem to have much horse experience.
Septembrer 8, 2019
Looks like we have a bit of dry outside, so might grab Carlotta before heading off to Petra and Steph.
have fun
We did some fun plays together. First took her to the straddling pole on lead rope, but with it hanging very loosely all the time, so she could figure it out by herself. She drifted again with her hind end when hind hooves reached the pole, so we walked away and did some PWs, crunches and skip canters at liberty. She loves it and engages more and more willingly and often offers PW on her own now. Also did some really beautiful pesades (her decision). She can now stay more in one spot and doesn't have to walk forward anymore. So more balance, I'd say. She stays glued close to me now when doing the PWs etc.
Back to the pole, this time off leash. She worked on it in a very concentrated manner. I tried to slow myself down internally and stop after each step. Not easy, as she was so keen to figure it out and perform
Hind legs off to the side again, and the lead rope slipped off my neck (where I had hung it) and fell in front of her feet. Woops, spook. But she came back immediately and wanted to try again. This time made sure to line up her hind end herself to approach the pole straight. She managed to place the left hind beside the pole. So we ended on that and she got heaps of praise and admiration and wither scritchies.
She seems to start to enjoy neck scritchies more now as well. She feels very engaged and wanting to be close to me now.
the pole is funny both horses here are really getting into it. I wish this wind would stop...hahahahaha - I know - it is great she is getting engaged. So did she deactivate at all before she came back from the spook?
Yes, she did deactivate: stopped and looked, then breathed out and relaxed her poll.
after some discussions with Dr Getty (nutritionalist from the USA) I took them off the hemp oil I was feeding them on her advice as it is not like the same they get over there - both horses were becoming very dull, only took 2 days and they were back to their usual selves this morning - Star was straddling the pole while I was with Sharney in the other yard LOL
Yay for Star! Hugs to both of them!
Ok so this is good, our aim is for our horse to deactivate and then they know what goes up comes down and then it does not seem as spooky
I have a very good feeling about how Lotta handles it right now.
Will set up camera next time. Didn't dare today because of the threatening rain. Really should have, would have been so much worth it.
They do like the feeling the pole is giving them I dont have the back feet consistent yet but it will happen. Yes if Carlotta is showing you she is handling things then it is all becoming worth it. I wish I could finish this on line course I am building - took forever this morning to find a video I wanted to take a bit from so at least I know where it is now. It is almost done. oh the days we dont have the camera are the best ones!
Glad to hear you're almost finished with that on line course. TTYL have fun! yes it is nearly there I just wanted to change all the intro and stop the references to SE
September 10, 2019
Iâm glad that you were able to have some progress with Carlotta, Yvonne, in applying some of the concepts. Thatâs great news!
I gave an theory presentation to Petra and Steph yesterday, about clicker training and gentle techniques to interact with a horse. We did some role playing, having turns to everybody being the "horse" or the trainer. When Steph was my horse and I, the trainer, had some difficulties getting her to reach the goal I had set in my mind (and whispered into Petra's ear), i.e. walk to a chair and sit down on it, Steph had a big ahaa moment about how confusing things can be for a horse. As it was only drizzling occasionally, we went out and did something with her horse, Chase, a 14 y.o. Standie, which she got about a month ago.
He was pretty thin, as Steph had already suspected and I confirmed, but it will take some time to feed him to better health. She has done all the rest, like worming, having his feet looked after, teeth done etc., so she is trying very hard to do everything she can for him.
I then introduced him to CT via touching a target. He is very mouthy and pushy, but not in an aggressive way, but showed some improvement already after some work, so we moved on to see how he longed. Which, after a moment of confusion, he did nicely. I think he is pretty weak, so can't do any other work than walking at this stage.
So I set up a cone circle and did Alex' exericse of walking around and stopping at each cone and let the initiative to the horse to stop too, which he figured out very quickly. Another thing I noticed is that he is very intelligent and extremely light in his responses. Right from the beginning, he started to back up when I only directed him with body language, without even touching him. Same for coming forward and hindquarter yields. He clearly didn't know these things, but understood very quickly and was happy to perform.
Seems he has been driven in sulky races, and I assume that his education to be a riding horse was very rudimentary. Was nice to see how he came to Steph when she called him in the paddock, and how interested he was in everything we did with him. A real treasure. I will go back and do some more, also with Petra's cheeky little pony
Will try to set up the camera next time and take a bit of video. Here are Steph's and Petra's comments:
Petra: Thank you for today Yvonne, l enjoyed todayâs lesson. I now have a better understanding from the horses point of view, just hope l can remember it all
Steph: yes thank you. it was a lot to take in, also hope i remember it all. can we please go over some of it on Thursday? so it sinks in.
I loved learning it from the horses point of view, it was so interesting sounds all very positive - I will get you the stuff in the mail and you will see a training game on there as well and the human confusion LOL - just go slowly at her pace and it was nice that they were both wanting refreshers
Yes, great. Thanks a lot.
BTW, these passive-aggressive lassies were the Canadian girls (have forgotten their names) and Rebecca from SA, right? Rebecca sent me a friend request (before I posted my comments on my Timeline), so I better be very careful in my interactions with her....
Kirrily did too, and she went very quiet after reading my post
For the human confusion about the training game: Alex had invited me to the first clicker trainer instructor clinic in NY, and part of it were said training games. She had thought out for me, the horse, the task to walk (together with a second "horse"), between to parallel posts and pcik them up together and carry them a few steps! You bet that I had big difficulties with this, especially as my "trainer" was very imprecise with her clicks. I went through all sorts of things, including square dancing over the poles, haha, but couldn't figure it out. Everybody had a good laugh about it
Here is some groundwork fun with Lotta today (um, she used her neck again for crunches...):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezmW8oeqSUU&feature=youtu.be
Carlotta did some nice skips and PWs this morning under saddle, will send you that video too, once it's uploaded.
Carlotta being really enthusiastic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyeBc-dwj_c&feature=youtu.be
whats going on with her flanks? in the ground video she was doing alot of kicking towards her flanks - she is going well and looks happy
Nothing going on with Lotta's flanks
I had inadvertantly taught her to move her hind legs vividly when I say "hind leg". All my fault really, as I clicked it when she did. Will really have to work on it - too lazy or busy up to now.
Soo, Srah will send me a looong email, as it sounds
Ok LOL I dont know what Sarah will do I assume she will want the 'last' say such is the ego
September 12, 2019
Oh, forgot to tell you: We have a routine to let the horses into the middle paddock around mid day. So when yesterday I approached (Carlotta hanging over the gate nickering), the horses started to walk towars the other end. But when I called Carlotta, she turned around and came to me! ⺠yeah for Carlotta - it is great when this happens. My two escaped yesterday and went accross the creek having a grand old time and it was really scary as there are many wombat holes over there, hence the reason I cant let them there. I think a cow somehow pushed the gate as there was a huge dent in it - went down with my clicker and bag and then came across the creek and panther walked with me all the way to their paddock LOL - heaps of clicks and trying to keep my nerves in tack. If I had brought halters down with me it would have not been as good I reckon
Oh Julie, this is such a wonderful story! I see that creek of yours in my mind, must be a worry to have it on your place. Isn't it just delightful when they PW at your side. Yay for Star and Sharney - and for you!
yep it was a real worry - so thanks - they were having the time of their lives and I feel for them that they cant be over there but the holes will break their legs - they were covered in sweat with their winter coats but they were just so wonderful. I called hub and he was not able to come straight back and he settled me down and said you got this - the horses will respond just PW your way home
I am just about to feed up and go to bed - oh have you seen any of anja Berans work?
Yes, quite nice most of it. But some things I didn't really like. I prefer Arne Koets.
Ok I subscribed to a website and I like what she is saying so far (well except for riding at 3 rather than ground work at 3)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/io65b8n1copk2ai/Training%20the%20eye%20comp.mp4?dl=0
Finished watching it. Well presented. Of course, I know all this already, but it certainly is very useful for people who are not aware of these things.
I agree with most of what Anja says (and she is a beautiful rider, as I saw in youtubes of her). Just a few things: She warns about starting a horse at age 3 (and even 2, as they often have to do in Germany, because of the "circumstances"), but still seems to have given in to the idea of applying it, because she has to, if she wants to survive as a trainer. But she is making a good effort to try to raise awareness and maybe one day change conditions via opening the eyes of the public.
She suggests nice things, but I still think that 4 y.o. is too young to ride a horse (see Deb Bennett's growth chart). We start ours at the earliest at 4 1/2, with good groundwork preparation and then very little riding time, then send them back to paddock life for another 6 months or even a year, before starting to ride them.
The remarks about the amble made me laugh. Definitely she has no idea about the existence of gaited horse....
I liked her explanations about why trot extensions should only be done after the horse can do piaffe and passage.
I don't agree with her about the rider's hands. She says "low", and many of her examples show indeed hands that are too low and sortof blocked. One does it well, with naturally angled elbows and hands about belly button height. If she preaches for low hands, we will inevitably continue to see riders with hands in their crotches, stiff, tense shoulders, elbows and wrists. Just my opinion.
I loved her suggestion to develop piaffe from backing (with relaxed diagonal footfall). And canter pirouettes out of travers. I am far from being there yet, but who knows, it might happen one day....
classical dressage is not really aimed at the gaited horse with these folks LOL and yes I agree too young but there is no way that in these circles that they will start later - at least she is careful - I hate that she starts under saddle but I feel that she does offer some good insights. She is only speaking about low hands when the horse begins - not when they are ready to compete though from what I can see
Hm, not sure, I think I saw a lot of low hands in the educated horses. Will go out and ride now.
I dont pay allot attention to the 'riders' position so maybe dont know LOL - I like her explanation but I wanted to see what the fuss was about as Alex Kurland is over with her at the moment, so subscribed for a month or so to watch the videos
Haha, OK.
Haha, she PW's at my side on the way out of the paddock
Another lovely ride. Boy, is she keen on that PW! Offers it all the time. I am trying to develop strategies (other from clicking) to get her to stop now and then, haha. Tried asking for corto and laterals which worked.
Have also worked a bit on downward transitions and nice walk (Hi, Anja!) as well as improving the turn on forehand and haunches. She could do these perfectly a while ago, which it has become slack and not correct recently. So, better go back to rebuild that one.
Same for backing through labyrinth. Looks like it worries her. Never mind, we do tiny increments of it from time to time, so she can rebuild her confidence.
Tomorrow and until Sunday visit from our friend Margaret. She seems to have finally regained her health and wants to get back into the saddle now, under Chris' wings and using one of her steeds (Sparky or Keldan) which live here at Narrawin. She is planning to ride in the Anke clinic end of November, so she better practises a bit before.
Hope all is better with you now and you have overcome all the dreadful things that happened recently.
September 12, 2019
Yea with the PW we can only cue it but remember that it can also be a sign she is trying to get more confidence so dont forget to think about it in these terms as well and use it with the labyrinth. Sounds like you have some busy days coming up. Vet this morning and then I can relax a little but I am still pretty raw.
September 14, 2019
Yes, keeping that in mind and letting her do her thing, when she needs to. Might be a bit difficult in the labyrinth, as it's the backwards that worries her at the moment, i.e. I lead her through forward, like she is used to, but when I ask her to stop at the end, she get worried and cotinues forward. Nevermind, she can have a break with it. Might work a bit from the ground here and there.
Had a busy day yesterday: ride out late morning with Chris and Margaret (both on the Iceys). Carlotta AGAIN pee'd and poo'd in the float when Chris picked her up. And she had done 5 poos already. sigh
I suppose she was worried that we might take her to Cliff for a lesson. But that won't happen anymore, so she can relax about it.
Then home to walk the dogs, then just a 15 minute break, and then off to Petra and Steph. This time, I took almost everything on video, except my first CAT session with Petra's pony, which I forgot to film unfortunately. It was great - within a few minutes of it, I could walk all the way up to her, touch her halter, take it off, then put it back on. I could see Petra swallow drily when I took the halter off and walked away, haha.
Then Petra learned how to do it, and soon she could manage too, put the halter on little Diva and started to lead her around without resistance. I helped her over the first "stuck" moments, and then it went smoothly.
Gave a long talk in the beginning about what horses are and feel, then we worked a bit with Chase, Steph's Standie. I introduced him to the mat, and also some more walking around cone circles. He "suddenly" became pretty nippy for food delivery, so worked on this, until it dawned to me that it only happened when we are standing on his right side. Duh!
I asked Steph whether she cad worked with him over the last few days, as I had suggested, and she admitted that she hadn't. (which showed!). I strongly suggested she does, and practises with a barreer between her and Chase. When I as about to leave, it came out that she had gone to that Donna again, who had elbowed her into letting her ride Chase (against her will, as she said). Steph said that she had told Donna about our work with Chase and that she was gently when riding him. On which I said that she wouldn't be able to recognise whether Donna was gentle and soft or not, as she didn't have the experience to see it. I said that I was happy to work with her and her horse, but she had to give her own input and not turn around and let Donna ride him at this stage or ride him herself. As this would be very confusing for her horse, and I wasn't prepare to waste my time in this case. I would be happy to let her continue with Donna, if that is her choice, but would stop working with Chase if Steph chose that path. I explained that her horse, being so thin at the moment, is too weak to be ridden, so she can make use of the next weeks/months to build up her own skills and maybe take lessons with an instructor on another horse to learn an independent seat and hands.
I gave both homework to practise the things I had shown them and then I might come back and do some more.
I am aware that Donna sortof bullied Steph into letting her ride Chase, but I suggested she puts her foot down, if she has her horse's interest in mind, and not allow any further riding for now. Also checked her gear - the saddle is a Wintec with changeable gullet, which is too narrow in the shoulder area, IMO. And Steph is too comparatively heavy for such a flimsy saddle. I will discuss the matter with Chris and see whether she can come and assess it, as she is much better with saddle fitting than I am.
Another visit from a horse girl after brekkie. Amiee has booked into our next Anke clinic end of November. She has 2 Irish Woldhounds, so is very interested in seeing our borzoi. And also in the horses. So we will have some interaction with all of them, and also go and see Chris.
Sun 12:26 PM
sounds like you have a full couple of days! yes vet was great. wow Donna sounds like a piece of work - you are right to say you cant work with anyone if there is conflicting information. The CAT stuff is really good to do and if Steph and Petra can try and see what you are achieving then it will really pay off for her - the nippiness could have been stress - so if there are videos they would be good to see. walking backwards - heaps of good suggestions in Jecs book for that!
Sun 4:24 PM Vids are here (the top 6): https://www.youtube.com/user/ylehey/videos?disable_polymer=1 Most are very long.
The nippiness was stress, I am pretty sure about this. Petra was delighted with how Diva, her pony, reacted. She is very keen on it.
Dunno about Steph, she hasn't given my a final decision yet.
When you do something for free, people often think it's not worth anything. I am doing this to help Petra, as she is a very kind soul and is very worried about her light-headed daughter.
Had a lot of fun with Amiee (pronounced Amy) today. We walked the dogs together, visited Chris, where Amiee could see Chris and Rev in full action, then we played a bit with Carlotta. Lotta was apparently still tired from yesterday, so I did mainly a few minutes of riding at walk. She said she couldn't do any PW today, so I respected that. Let Amiee have a short ride, so she could experience how it feels to ride a gaited horse. She loved it. Is also very interested in alternative ways with horses, so told her about Intrinzen and your work. She has problems with her horses who got frustrated with the so-called dressage. She competed in it for years, then stopped because she and her horses didn't like it anymore. I think our different approach fascinates her
yep I know the feeling about doing things for free - Steinar and now Sarah - it is a problem but it shows more about them than you (in your case). It is good that Amiee is open to it - well the online course is nearly finished - I just want to do a couple of more videos and if it is not foggy I can do them tomorrow - I am going to incorporate the straddling the pole into it with the mat as I got lift off today with SATS - straddling both front and rear with no pressure and release I was speaking to my trimmer today about the workshop as she was going to come also but ended up with a busted car so she could spare the cash - she is a psychologist, drug and alcohol counsellor as well as a therapist - I knew her in my old life - she gave it all up for trimming - she said she agreed with my take and that it was Sarahs job as the leader to help and contain the questions etc - she felt she was a narcissist LOL and wanted to play good cop bad cop and set me to the wolves
Sounds lovely! I will let Amiee know when it's finished. I briefly showed her some liberty stuff with Carlotta, including the straddling pole.
I am going to incorporate the movement solutions presentation into it as well as it is all about the best for the horses
Great
So I will look at the vids tomorrow - and if you want I will offer my views - when the DVD's come you will see both presentations (no oral talk on them at the moment) and I am happy if you wanted to share them
Oh thank you, that's wonderful!
You might get tired of watching those lengthy vids though...
its all good, I can pace myself!
but lengthy means not really what we are aiming for LOL
Hahahaha. The longest thing was the introductory speech, all the rest wasn't too bad
according to PV they explode when they wake up because they wanted to explode before they shut down but could not - so dorsal vagal high and then the tone becomes lower and they 'wake up' so back to high sympathetic
Oh, I see.....
September 15, 2019
Ok so heres the thing - I am unclear as to why you did CAT? (but what I saw was not a demonstration of CAT unfortunately and I think the main reason was that this pony was not scared. So for me I could not see any reason that this pony needed it? the pony wanted to engage - so think about this - where was the threshold of anxiety? the pony showed no signs that there was one. By providing -R (which is CAT in distance) to a horse who wants proximity is punishing - for me this was not CAT. There was also a time when there was a treat given and then it was back to CAT - So talk me through your reasons to do CAT (especially as this video followed a clicker session)
My...... it is great you have an attentive audience as there was allot of information for them to digest in one session hahahahaha. So a few things but first you are best to watch my clicker USB before you think of lending it to these folks (if you chose to do so) because my USB will create confusion for them and it would be akin to another trainer and you want to avoid that for sure. The reason is I do not teach clicker this way and use very little from Alex, because of the blending. IMO one has to understand allot more than these two do before one risks not creating anxiety with the use of -R and then pairing with a click..it usually ends in disaster later - I dont believe that these two can judge a state of anxiety, so continuing in this manner with -R and +R has the potential to poison the clicker - something many had happen in the early days 30 or so years ago. There is quite a bit of science that shows blending is confusing for the horse in any event, even when the horse is resilient -R but be it as it may I am just giving you the heads up as my DVD is very different to the focus of your videos here. With Stephanie and Chase there was allot of confusion for the horse I felt - and I can easily see this horse becoming anxious with the use of -R and at times I saw escalated pressure and release and that is a NO NO even by Alex's standards, as this will definitely cause poison cues. Of course sometimes video is easier to see than when we are there in the moment. This is the main reason why beginners need not to use -R in my view as they don't understand the differences between a cue (in laymans terms - but it really is a signal) and pressure and release. I know you will focus on this but I did see allot of mistakes with the treat and click delivery and I think that it was because it had not been cemented first and also she did not understand what it was she was doing and when the horse was actually providing something that she liked to see repeated. Treats were given at times I would not have considered giving them also, but that is a difference of training and everyone has different views of course - it was more important not to treat when there were the early signs of mugging and there were quite a few times when there were either pats or treats (could not hear allot of clicking but I am sure they were there).
Mon 10:52 AM
Your parcel arrived today. Thanks a lot. Will ask Greg to make it all visible for me.
Hm, about Steph and Chase. Yes, I know I made some mistakes and didn't correct Steph enough. I had suggested she does it behind a barrier, but she was too lazy to even do a single session. And I have the feeling that she didn't like me saying that she had to decide what she wanted and I would't continue if she chooses Donna and her path
Pity I hadn't filmend my first CAT session with Diva, the pony. Petra had told me that she was uncatchable, so each time she needed to halter her, she lured her into a small enclose with a food bucket, then they grabbed her with several people and forced the halter on!!!
And Diva definitely had the "my-finger-up-to-you" syndrome. So I started with CAT, and within minutes, she had understood that nobody would force her and started to want to interact very happily (but still a bit carefully).
When I coached Petra through a session with her pony, I showed her the CAT approach, so she could use it if ever there would be problems in the future. And of course she needed some better approach for haltering, so we worked on this mainly.
hahahaha inner integrity was missing in Qld. yeah it is not really possible to coach through a CAT session when the horse is not in fear and if the horse had a finger up to you syndrome there probably was no fear in the first place, just the horse was sensible enough to know that these humans trying to catch me are not worth my effort LOL - so human prove it to me that you are worth my while! So what you had done most likely proved that to her. Yeah the clicker DVD will not really be of any use to you as it does not follow the clicker technique that you use . Sounds like Steph is not really going to commit to something that will help as it is not a quick fix - but you need to be careful as Steph was not really understanding what she was doing and that is a disaster for her and the horse as the manners will get worse and then all they will see is this 'process' made the horse bad - the horse will then be the one to suffer
So, may be a good idea not to use CT with her and Chase? I can try to only use -R when working with them. Will explain to her why, if it comes to it.
Thank you for all the input, very helpful. I am not a true clicker trainer, just a user ;-)
whatever the method it has to be what she will be committed to and she does not seem to understand the bare bones of horses so there is always the potential for either -R or +R to be used to the detriment of the horse. So either method would be blamed if it was poorly executed. I would always recommend clicker training but not a combination of both +r and -r- this is where you and I differ. The clicker to me is more than something that is given at the end of a pressure and release, it is a method of communication and providing the horse with what is proven to yield the best results. If the communication sends out mixed signals, which blending does (especially if the pressure is escalated which it was in her video and she was only leading), then there is the potential to do harm - but -R will have the same result and the harm is worse for the horse - the harm that can be caused by clicker done mistakenly will be shown up in the horse well and truly before harm comes to the horse - this is not the case usually with harm caused by escalated pressure and release as it becomes punishment and often the horse will appear quiet and of course this is misread by the human - with clicker done badly the horse is more likely to be loud and show the human he or she is 'turning' into a monster - plenty of time to fix IF there is a person who is reading that language correctly - a person who cannot read the language correctly will positively punish the horse and then the horse suffers more. I honestly did not get the feeling that these people have allot of common sense and knowhow with horses so I can only caution you that if you sense that their heart is not in it, I would explain to them the differences as you see them and leave them to decide - walk away and wait for them to contact you - just a feeling but when there is already someone else in the mix , who seems to have more pull power it cant turn out well
Very good thoughts, Julie. You are tight, and I mentioned it before: they don't have a clue about horses. I was trying to give them some basics, but I'm afraid, it's too much info for them to process, and part of it went above their head.
Yes, the danger is there that I will get the blame if something goes wrong. This is mostly the case when it comes to teaching something about horses...
Petra (the mother) asked me whether I can help and I said I will try. But it seems like a big task. I have helped lots of people before with their horses, and often with good success. But Steph is a scatterbrain, according to her mum, and I don't have a good feeling about it.
But I feel so sorry for the horse...
I have already done what you suggest, i.e. explained my view to them and especially Steph, and asked them to think it over and then let me know. I would wait for her to contact me.
Petra has told me up front how worried she is about Steph getting into that journey (horse), due to being the person she is. She is a mother of 3 small children and has a scatterbrain of fiance, and often has serious health problems.
I had already suggested Steph takes riding lessons before even trying to ride Chase. And I think it might be a very good idea to have him trained by a sensible, good trainer to see what is in him. But that trainer would need to be found. And Chris' and my experience with this has been that you can train a horse as much as you want and can, as soon as it goes back to his incompetent owner, it has all been in vain, as things go back to what they were.
It's never the horse, it's always the rider. As the old cavalry saying goes....
Chris would be a good person to work with the horse. BUT.... she is more than busy with her life (PhD, work, 40 horses to care for on her property, jousting and other horse activities, etc.), and I really don't want to burden her with more. Especially as Steph doesn't have any money and is kept very "short" by her fiance. I am doing this for free, as you know.
I'm really not sure what to do. This poor rescue horse is so full of good will, but I am worried what will happen when he comes back to health and strength. I can see how my Wotan is transformed, now that he feels good again, and I worry about Steph when this happens with Chase. He is currently very thin and thus weak (I pointed this out to Steph and said that, among others, this is the reason I wouldn't anybody allow to ride him).
Of course, I pointed all this out to her and Petra already, but will they remember?....
I did my best to try to introduce her to a way of interacting with her horse without submitting him to the danger of having to put up with yet more pressure. But this is a potentially very dangerous situation, as you point out.
Mainly due to what Steph is and how she reacts.
The policy might be to discuss with Petra what to do. Not that we actually can do anything without Steph's consent, of course.
I can tell Petra that I discussed the matter with you and how you feel about it.
I had already said that she should never have bought a horse at this stage, but rather take riding lessons for a while, until she has gained some basic knowledge.
I can tell Petra that I fear that there is a considerable risk of disaster, especially when Chase gets stronger and healthier again.
The only way out I can see is:
- Steph doesn't do anything with Chase for the moment - She takes regular riding lessons (which might be a problem, due to the financial situation) - She has her horse trained by a good trainer who understands horses and uses gentle methods - Only then she gets introduced to riding and handling her horse by said trainer.
She might need regular supervision and help for a long time, but frankly I am neither able nor willing to do this. I have enough on my plate, and I don't have insurance cover anymore.
I don't want to scare and worry Petra more than she is already, but it might be necessary to discuss all this with her. What do you think?
Seeing the way Steph has reacted (not even done anything with her horses after I had asked her to) makes me think that it's a waste of time anyway.
As you say: what she most likely wants, is a quick fix, like this is the case for so many horse owners and riders.
Anyway, don't worry too much about it. I think I'll just repeat that she needs to get riding lessons and get the horse trained.
I think you need to follow your feelings -why not invite Steph to watch you with your horses and ask questions? I would not personally want Steph to ride - I would feel better if she was working in hand to be honest - I think it is working with the human though not the horse
Yes, mostly with the human. But I have the nagging feeling that all she wants is ride, and soooon!
I can invite her along, for sure, but not sure about the use of it. Will wait for her to say something before offering anything else.
Thank you for listening and suggesting
I would ask her to work with Wotan on the ground. trust me - the learning will happen!
Haha, do you think that is safe? He can be jumpy, and this could be a problem.
ask her what she is feeling, ask her what she thinks he is feeling, what is he showing when he does this and that - video the lot and you stay with the camera - yes I feel the worst Wotan will do is move away - this then gives you the opening to help her read a horse - he wont barge at her and he is the most resilient of your herd
EAP my way LOL
oh and repeat what she says to you for the video - but you say it is to make sure it is picked up and you understand it and then ask her to view the video later
Sounds good. What is EAP?
Haha, "what do you feel" is kinda poisoned for me at the moment
EAP equine assisted therapy - what the loopies were all about the other week LOL - OK so feel is the wrong word hahahahahaha - what are you thinking
LOL, really had a good laugh about Wotan, the most resilient of my herd. Small choice in rotten apples, eh?! ROFL
I think he is resilient - he is confident to deactivate in times when he has a little stress
Yes, I fully agree.
September 17, 2019
Carlotta's spanish blood shining through yet again:
This morning she offered me a few steps of spanish *trot* a couple of times. I had just done my pelvis lift and given a small forward cue with my legs, and Bingo!
Awesome Carlotta! Bravo, Princess!
Will make a rain dance for you tonight! ta!
September 19, 2019
Hope you got a lot more of the wet stuff!
So windy/stormy here today that Carlotta didn't want to be ridden... or even play at liberty with me. So I said OK let's go back to the paddock and you can have brekkie.
Petra here this morning, so I got an update. Yep, as I suspected, Steph really isn't ready for all this and prefers to lend her ear to others. That neighbour of hers, Donna, buys and sells horses and has sold Chase to Steph and now, according to Petra, tries to talk Steph into buying one of her others for her little daughter!! (the tiny girl in the vids). Petra is pretty sure that Donna has told Steph not to listen to me etc. I told Petra I am perfectly happy (and even very relieved) that Steph wants to follow her path without my assistance. Whew....
She hadn't done ANYTHING of what I had recommended. The result: the horse has turned very muggy, as she feeds him when he crowds her instead of making him "work" for treats!!! In fact, she didn't listen to anything I said, as it seems, apart from that she liked what I showed her of in-hand work and proudly said to her mum that she had applied it when riding him (!!!) and he responded well. Petra got very upset with her, especially when Steph asked her to take one of her horses to her place and feed him and look after him. Petra said she didn't really want the horse, so I suggested she clearly says NO!
We agreed that I would completely pull out of the whole matter and not interact with Steph any more. I also told Petra to make it very clear to Steph that I don't want her to do any feeding him treats anymore and pointed out that this would very quickly turn into disaster the way she is handling it. Petra said she would tell her.
Then came the good thing of the whole matter: Petra told me that Diva, her little pony, now allows her near her any time and even comes running to the gate, as soon as Petra turns up. She can halter her and lead her without any problem. Heard a bit of background: her neighbour (who had also told Petra all sorts of uneducated nonsense, because she had watched what I had done with Steph and Chase and Diva and Petra from behind her hedge) some time ago offered Petra to help her worm Diva and grabbed her by the mane and neck and cornered her and forced the wormer into her mouth. I pointed out that this is the reason why her pony doesn't want to let her approach since. Petra said "Oooh, now I understand what was going on!". In fact, before she always had a great relationship with Diva, could do anything with her, take her for walks etc and from that day of neighbour's intervention, all this was down the drain (who would have thought that...).
Anyway, I gave her a syringe, cut the nozzle off and said she should get some apple sauce, and then I would show her how to prepare Diva for relaxed worming. I am very pleased that things are going so well for Petra and her pony.
Was a real eye-opener for her how quickly a good relationship can be ruined. At least, she is interested and listens what I tell her.
I suspect there is allot more to the story you are being told, but if you are keeping out of it you should keep out of it though, even with Petra, but time will tell
Petra knows her daughter very well and acknowledges that I tried very hard and that is not my "fault" that it didn't work out, but of Steph's making.
I can't keep out with Petra, as she is my cleaning lady. But she was the one who told Steph that she wouldn't ask me anymore to try to help, as she noticed that Steph just hasn't the right mindset.
I think it should be safe to just help Petra with her own pony.
Thu 3:21 PM fingers crossed
Thu 6:11 PMFri 12:06 PM
Too funny: Valeta tries her hand on things she has seen with Carlotta now, like spanish salute and levades Such a cute little copycat.
And Carlotta more and more easily goes into PW, when she walks at my side. And does little mini crunches or bowing in the paddock to attract my attention. Silke (trimmer) was here this morning. Very windy, so it was a bit difficult, especially as Mick, the gardener, kept zooming past with his electric mower. When he first did it, Carlotta was tied to the rail, and Mick turned it on very close to her and immediately started mowing with high energy. She did a little backward jump, then looked at him intensely, but stayed calm. She has come such a long way.
thats great with Carlotta and Valeta LOL. It would have been better to hear that when she got a scare she released her built up energy or even better did something to make herself more confident but that will come I am sure
Yes, I am very confident it will, Julie. I had my hands full with Wotan, so couldn't watch very closely, but I think she did release her energy.
I am so proud of Lotta that she figured out how to do the spanish trot now (the beginnings of it), and it really is trot, not lateral. I played the last riding video in slow mo around 8.00 and saw this is clearly the case.
Woopeeeee :D
September 22, 2019
Not much to report really, just one thing: during the ride this morning, Carlotta suddenly decided that the sheep in neighbour's paddock are scary, so she stopped dead, head high, and stared at them. Great opportunity to try the thing with the window of tolerance. I left the reins loose(ish), and just sat there, very calmy and allowed her to look intensely at the sheep.
It went on for about 10 secs, then she relaxed her poll a bit, upon which I gave her a wither scritchie. Soon after this, she tensed up again, so I waited longer, all four cheeks soft and relaxed ;-) Her poll softened again and she did two successive crunches. Then was all with me and happy to continue our work.
Oh, and when I asked for a crunch on our way back to paddock, and said "are you ready?", she immediately positioned herself and did a lovely one. Ahaaaa?! So I did it again, and yes, as soon as she heard "ready?", she crunched beautifully again.
September 23, 2019
Ok so the crunches in this example are saying to you I am trying to build confidence - so that was then the time to wait for her nervous system to deactivate - so remember in this case when there is a scare that the crunches are her way of remaining there - so we wait. but it is great she did them and great she is understanding english - see it is not so hard to teach a horse english!
9:48 AM
Bahahahha, yes, it's easy indeed, and Lotta speaks it quite well by now :D She is even bilingual
For the crunches in the above case: how long do we wait after she has given signs of relaxation? Not sure how the nervous system shows that it has deactivated. I waited a few more seconds after she did the crunches, then thought: let's go, and she did.
Maybe better just sit there and let her walk on of her own choice?
10:54 AM
we just wait till we see deactivation so either licking and chewing or jaw movements etc - the first time is always the longest and we need to wait - and wait and wait - sometimes if it is just too long we can help by just bringing their attention to their body with a slight touch and they it usually happens - yes they will go if we ask but what we are wanting to do is take advantage of the situation to help her calm and deactivate herself - so if we dont then there is a chance that the work after has tension attached to it. It is not about walking on, it is about showing a sign that she is releasing back down
Makes a lot of sense. Thank you.
The sheep will stay a while longer, and anyway, she will always find something to startle her. Like yesterday, when a few grains of sand were rearranged and looked wrong to her :D
haha - part of this stuff is the lessening of anxiety when it happens so yep any opportunity is good
haha - part of this stuff is the lessening of anxiety when it happens so yep any opportunity is good
Home and dry and a lovely ride was had. Carlotta had a good stop and stare at the nearby sheep (I had dropped the reins on her withers and remained completely passive), then softened her neck, did a crunch, softened her neck again and walked off. A minute later she spotted a herd of roos hopping past the field, so stopped dead in her tracks, head up and stared. Same scenario with passive ride. 3 secs later, she did a crunch, then softened and sighed and walked off. All the rest very good and her very cooperative. Back at the rail, I unsaddled, then stood at her side, talking to her gently and had my hand resting on her back, behind the withers. And she arched her neck and very distinctively lifted her back - I could feel my hand go up several centimeters.
Sep 24, 2019
sounds really good, I would also say the sigh is her deactivating. It is such a shame about Sarah you know - my movement specialist/body worker was out here yesterday and she could actually see the changes in Stars vagus nerve reactions for the better (that he deactivates verses standing stoic which he used to) and she says it is because of this work
Looks like we can both be very happy with our achievements
Well yes, it's a shame, but after all, you have learned how to do it now, so you can continue on this path.
mmm not sure if I learnt enough by working it out myself - but it is what it is - I recorded the straddle this morning so I will load it now
Looking forward to see it.
Maybe you can check in from time to time and learn more. Seems like Sarah isn't as hostile to you as she is to me
I dont know, I am sure that if that is the case it is simply because she wants access to my stuff which is not going to happen because it would all be out of context.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pvxjcajf2kz1mun/straddling%20comp.mp4?dl=0
it is funny as at the end she wanted to try using the pole to do a quarter in
Tue 5:22 PM
Haha, nice travers at the end. And very cute how she decided that she wanted to come back and give it another go.
This video was an eye-opener for me that I need to be a lot more patient with this exercise! And really allow them to just stand there as long as they want.
Will try again tomorrow hopefully.
Thank you for the good demo. And your explanations will be very helpful for those who watch it, so they can understand the why's and how's.
Carlotta was lovely again this morning, she tried so hard to figure things out. Gave me some great lifted canter jumps when I said up, and then went into a lovely PW from it. And also some nice crunches.
hahaha - it is not perfect but it is the start - I had done a little the other day but was working out exactly how to do this without pressure and release - SATS really works I think she shows LOL. I will need her to learn to stand square but it was great she got this much in three sessions - this was the third. Yes the idea is for them to stand there as this is the benefit they get from it. Sharney as you see cues me when she has had enough. Great for Carlotta - the power of the social engagement system cannot be underestimated
we really are miles ahead of Sarah hahahahaha
Bwahahaha, of course we are! She is not much of a horsewoman at all, according to what I saw and heard from her during the workshop.
I giggled a bit when you threw in a little bit of pressure and release to help Sharney to position herself. I did that myself once too and could have slapped myself just afterwards
yes Sarah is just really beginning and that is great of course -but this was the only reason I was 'attractive' to her because she did not have any evidence of it being with horses and it was only after she saw my video that she contacted me
yes I dont have any trouble with pressure and release when it is needed but I try not to add the clicker to it. The major hurdle is standing square for me at the moment it is at least
September 26, 2019
When I looked at my last riding video with Carlotta the other day, I found the slow-mo button und watched the bit around 8.00. It looks great, and I would love to make a short separate clip of these moments in slow-motion an in comparison in normal speed. Must see whether I can grab Greg some time, so he can help me do it.
well holla if you cant and I can do it, but I need the raw footage - so you can send it to me via drop box - youtube destroys the film and it cant be done from that
September 28, 2019
oh you just need a pixeo and then there is no mucking about! yes all is fine, am experimenting on what we can do with the straddling and Sharney's suggestion that we use it for gymnastic work LOL - need to really examine a final video when it is good to see what movement benefits there are. In the middle of marking assignments at the moment - be glad when they are finished!
Go Sharney - love it when they are so creative.
Yeah, a pixeo.... It is very expensive, isn't it?
yes it is expensive but you would not regret it - put it on your Xmas list! the assignments are fine but I cant do more than a couple a day because if they are bad I get real pissed off because they have not followed the content of the subject - so if I dont stop then the next one I mark bears my rath LOL. It is interesting that she wanted to QI on the pole so lets see what I can do with it
Hahaha, we don't do Xmas or B'day pressies. Just buy something when we want it!
Haven't done much with the pole straddling lately. Carlotta always want to switch her bum to the side when her hind feet reach it, and I couldn't be bother working on it regularly. She is doing nicely with the ridden part over the poles. Also saw an interesting video from Janessa Peterson who is currently in Portugal with some great riding masters. 2 parallel poles are set up, and at the end of a big half-circle another 2 parallel ones. You ride the horse in canter around, then through them, then stop at the end of one parellel set. Quite demanding, at least for Carlotta, who still deviates when we do canter work
When I ask her to go over the series of poles, she TROTS! Maybe I can use this for developping passage and piaffe, somewhere in the long run. Will have a chat with Anke when she comes next time. Also noticed that Lotta, at the end of a canter, is very willing to go into a power trot. Still experimenting with this, and it's only the beginning, of course.
experiment and see what happens - she may be giving you hints!
September 30, 2019
have you ever heard anyone in the classical riding folks say that ground pole work is bad for horses? my friend has just told me that her trainer says it is bad - I have never heard that anyone thinks this - is it a european thing?
Never heard about this either. And I can't see any sense in it! It does so many good things to the horse.
Today's vid is just finishing uploading, will post it to you. Lots of ground poles in there (from Jec's suggestions), as well as some nice PWs, I feel. What do you think? I got it a bit too light, but better than the other way round
I like it how relaxed and willing Carlotta is most of the time. And starting to nicely engage her hind end. And often stops square now, yay.
I have put the bright red reins on, so they can be seen easily
I try to let her figure out herself how to use crunches under saddle, have the feeling that he is gradually getting the idea.
yes it is very strange that she has been told this - by belinda bolsenbroek (I am not a fan) - I am looking forward to this video
I can ask Anke about it, Julie. She sometimes goes to Belinda clinics.
Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyTwKnHShug&feature=youtu.be
aghh it is long and the internet is not obliging, be back tomorrow - yeah I am not a Belinda fan but I have asked my friend to ask her also when she sees her next - I have never heard this before
oh have a look at my clicker page or the CAT page - I posted a great video on what happens if the head is too high
What are the links, Julie?
Sorry for the long video, but I can't reach the back of the camera from the saddle, so have to turn it on and off when I am dismounted.
no all good, the internet will be fine when I get up
https://www.facebook.com/australianclickerconnection/
October 1, 2019
Ok so this is good with the crunches - I thought to myself stop going to the back of the view of the camera for them and finally you came towards the camera to do a crunch) without the use of your hands! I think she is moving well - more challenges though are needed - that was too simple. You need a pixeo hahahaha - maybe because they are in france and you would have a euro bank account (I am sure) it would be cheaper for you - now pixeo not pixem. a good Sony camera is the best but the camera you have may also be compatible - there is a list but you need one hahahahahaha
https://shop.movensee.com/en/pixio-and-pixem-robot-cameraman/18-pixio-robot-cameraman.html
Sooo, more challenges... Suggestions?
Anke's input about what Belinda B. said:
"Belinda mentioned indeed that jumping is not a good thing for gaited horses, due to the fact that in gait, there is always one leg on the ground and the necessary back tension (to do the gait) makes the back too "bent" when jumping, which is painful. But ground poles could be very helpful to teach them to lengthen their stride and develop good "tact"-" So, it was all about gaited horses really, as it sounds.
And in my video, Carlotta demonstrates that walking and especially trotting over the ground poles has improved her rhythm and stride already, as she is actually trotting over them. yeah it really has nothing to do with jumping and my friend does not have gaited horses and it was she who was told
Note that, after the first couple of tries, I had no reins on her and let her move freely at her ease.
Haha, those teachers... often get carried away and apply things where they are not useful or necessary. Like scientists with their favourite theory.... cheeky-mode-off-now
yes the trotting will improve stride and therefore rhythm - the challenges I was thinking about for her were more cognitive and proprioceptive - it was allot of the 'same' that I saw rather than more complex tasks that give her a purpose
You are right, I tend to get stuck into habits and patterns. Would be grateful about new ideas. Yesterday, I brought in the mat and just stood with Lotta at some distance of it. She looked and did a bit of poll relaxing, chewing and sighing, but wasn't ready to approach. Maybe I will do this from time to time and see whether it evolves into something.
there are a number in the book I will look later - at the moment I am trying to find a close up video of you and carlotta at the beginning of crunches (just a couple of minutes or even two crunches) - I know there was one there and I thought I tagged it LOL - Also trying to find an old research article of Dewalls I had that showed the benefits of a power pose with chimps - I know I have it LOL
I would not do that with the mat - lead her on or leave it as the more you show her it like this then there is less purpose other than a reminder that it worries her - make sense? I would leave it again now for a while and then take her to it and lead her on with a panther walk - treat it like I did with the saddle pad
October 2, 2019
Have put one end of several poles on cavaletti stands today, and this was a biiiig challenge for Carlotta! I had lead her over them from the ground at first, so she could see them. But in the saddle, that was another kettle of fish... Got some zig-zags to start with, but eventually she straightened out (more or less). Same for the two aligned poles, but we ended up being able to go over them quite nicely, and over the 4 trotting poles even once at the trot. Tomorrow it may be old hat already
yep my guess is she is not confident with capacity...which I have said to you for a while and thats what I see. once your weight is on her she does not feel as confident, but you wont do what it takes in hand first because you cannot see yourself working from the ground - this is more about you than her. If it were me I would work with saddle sand bags so she has the confidence and build her capacity...look at it this way - her crunches are more formed without the rider...why do you think this may be?
Oct 2, 2019, 4:55 PM
This is very likely, Julie. When I started riding this morning, a strong wind came up and Carlotta was very worried about everything and couldn't concentrate on the task. So, after the first good response, I dismounted and did a bit from the ground. Like walking the Jec patterns over the poles. Yesterday, I had also tried to veeeery slowly ride down the mini slope at the entrance of my arena. Stopped when all four were on even ground, then asked her to back up the hill and through the little gate again, also very slowly. Which she did nicely, but I could see the wheels turn in her head why I had asked for this
Yes, OK, I will work on her capacity. Will fill a couple of sand bags and/or use my 1.5 kg weights.
I guess I better do it and spend some time on this, to allow her to gain that capacity.
my feeling is that the capacity is the major concern for her - I cant help feeling that she does not enjoy the riding - this can easily be changed but I think you did the right thing by dismounting BUT we have to let her deactivate - we have to build the confidence in her that when she feels overwhelmed she can manage her own nervous system states. I had a wonderful bit with Star this morning with something new we are working on and it showed just how long it takes But of course it was not filmed - by the time jerious got his act together and grabbed the camera it was too late - I wont make this mistake again LOL. Even he remarked on how long it took - yea well maybe 2 minutes but I know it seems like an eternity.
Know the feeling. Carlotta stared at the sheep this morning for an "eternity" which might have been 2 or 3 minutes.
October 4, 2019
I took your words about Carlotta needing to gain confidence under saddle to the heart today (note how much you have been influencing my attitude?!). I first thought "well, we will do just a few simple things, so she can feel relaxed), but it actually turned into a deactivating session!
I started by saddling her and put the two 1.5 kg weights on the saddle, upon which I felt her tensing up a bit. Then walked her into the arena and a bit around. She stopped and watched the far-awy sheep. And watched... and watched... felt like a long time, but I was very patient and just waited, making sure I was breathing calmly. Eventuelly she gave a little sigh and turned towards me. We walked off, very loose lead rope and approached one of the ground poles. She stopped and had a look, then relaxed and breathed out and walked forward. I let her choose where she wanted to go all the time and she wandered around, sometimes close to the poles, but never over. She stopped very often, looked into the distance, then walked again.
Then I got into the saddle and she almost immediately cleared her sinusses when walking, like she does during the warmup rounds. Then I said "Let's just do very simple, calm things" and picked up the reins softly. She immediately rounded up into a lovely lifted walk, while I had the reins even softer than usual. She stopped beautifully to my seat.
Then looked to the sheep again for quite a while, then gave a little sigh and walked off. This repeated itself a lot of times, which means that we spent most of the time just standing there.
But I gave her all the time she needed and in the end, she softened her neck to about horizonal level and let out a biiig sigh. And I invited her to go home and dismounted. Hope I did it right.
It sounds very long, but it was 10 minutes all in all!
It sounds like it was perfect - how wonderful to get that experience as it really does warm our hearts when it happens
Oh yes. Hopefully one or two buttons opened in her mind today, so we have some lasting positives. Funny how easy it is to listen, once you know how it works.
... and are willing to do it!
yes for sure they would have been and she will get more confidence as you see opportunities. Yep I think you are right, once you have been able to do it rather than seeing someone else do it, it becomes really intuitive but rewarding in and of itself. it also gives our horse greater control for themselves -and reduces the HPA Axis - which means the body is able to return to a normal homeostasis. ...all the things I wanted to talk about in my presentation with her ladyship - putting the focus and the needs back to the horse
Such an exciting and rewarding journey! I will be forever grateful to you to teach me. you are doing it - even though it is an individual journey I am so pleased that you and a couple of others I speak to about it are starting to see its value and I dont feel as 'alone' with it now. You will start to see opportunities all over the place now and you have to go with them and of course you can create opportunities with things you know that Carlotta is a little shy about - the mat is too soon but I am thinking after a few more opportunities to go with this you could use the mat as a tool for this also
That feeling through the reins at the beginning of the ride (when she so softly went into self-collection) was incredibly special - it felt like walking on clouds.
until people have the experience and see what their horse can become they dont get it - do you know that Star still has not begun to itch - yes see she let go of some of the tension patterns that build up
I am walking on Clouds myself, because it was so delightful.
OMG, this is wonderful about Star, Julie! Fingers crossed it will last through the whole summer!
yep that happens too - see if we look at this from the horses perspective and go with the horse (rather than go with our 'feelings) it actually benefits us
It does! Almost put tears into my eyes, so thankful I was to her that she offered it to me. yes it may very well last - who knows but I know he still has some way to go as we are working on releases at the moment when rope is caught around his leg (the other nightmare for him) - very slow process that is.
I bet most people wouldn't even notice, but since you opened my eyes, I certainly do! notice Carlotta or their horses in general?
I am sure you have all the patience he needs, and it will happen in the end.
No, their horses in general.
Like I wouldn't have noticed before.
yep thats true but when they are ready they do seem to ask because usually nothing else works - generally they feel they need some form of 'training' and want to try something else - but if they are really keen they start to see the differences and that motivates them to learn more. Our own proprioception and antenna for our horse needs to change, so we can open up to it.
well listen to you!
and this is where I have trouble with the equine assisted stuff being used for this training as the focus changes and we miss seeing the opportunities
October 5, 2019
This morning's Carlotta session turned out into something else yet again
I had got the gear ready and fetched Carlotta to be saddled. Had hung up the new purple feed bag I had have made for her (she is only used to hay nets). When we walked towards it, she froze and stared. So I thought: perfect opportunity for capacity/deactivation. Just stood there and let her work it out. Waited... waited... waited. Eventually she showed signs of loosening up, licking and chewing, softening poll then sighing and small snorts. Then looked away again. This went on for ages. Felt like she was just zoning out indeed. In the end, I stepped to her side and gave her a little wither scritchie and she came alive, arranged her feet and did a little crunch, then walked hesitantly towards the bag. More looking away, but then she sighed, came forward carefully and started eating a bit of hay from the bag. Stilled didn't feel really deactivated.
So I took her to the arena and tried a bit of walking "uphill" step by step at the entrance, then "downhill". Which she did well. We went inside (very loose lead rope) and walked towards the various poles. She felt a little bit anxious, so I put the ends of the poles on the ground. And suddenly she was happy to walk over them in a relaxed manner. I unclipped the rope and she wandered away and started to eat the grass on the edges. As she didn't want to come back to me even after several minutes, I walked away and did something else. She came to the gate and I put the lead rope on and took her back to the feed bag. She approached a bit carefully, then started eating a bit from it. But still not really relaxed. So we stopped the session, as I had to get my chores done and brekkie fixed etc. Do you think I did it right?
Yes it was fine what you did - it will happen like this for a while and I suspect it is them testing this out for themselves - it wont last for long
Whew, so glad to hear it. It was very hard for me to just stay with her and do nothing!
yeah I know but it gets better
I think that you are right: we need to nip this in the bud for Carlotta. There seems an awful lot of underlying baggage and tension, and when we can help her get rid of it, she should become a truly happy girl.
she will be fine - she needs the space to have confidence in her own deactivation - just support her and now and again think about what movements she likes to do and see if she will just even take a step or even a crunch in the times when she is a little worried - remember heaps of social engagement and praise and smile
And breathe
this was the lean back I wanted to use to train the eye in the crunches -
Yes, good example
I decided to ride Carlotta for a few minutes this morning, despite the strongish wind. We did our simple stuff, to keep things as relaxed as possible. She is now getting the hang of self-collecting very willingly
We walked over the poles a couple of times, and I gave her all the time she wanted to deactivate, each time she stopped and looked at things. Which she still did pretty frequently, but she came back a lot faster already. At one moment, she decided by herself to walk over one of the poles, then let out a sigh and nickered!! So cute. We ended on that.
cool - we know we are getting it right when the nickering starts! so thats good that the time frame is getting shorter - sometimes it wont happen and thats OK, and I suspect that she is teaching herself to deactivate if she is doing this regularly - it is quite amazing
October 7, 2019
Ok so here is the link for the videos - the presentation with Star is in video the same as it is for you on the stick I sent you as it is too large and I dont have the fast data to load it - just tell her that she will need to pause the videos as they will play automatically (on the video presentation not the smaller benefits presentation which is in powerpoint). There is the early straddle video and also a video on SATS - was that all?
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/9di1lntm2pkdy8u/AAAECZqxkVpXhS3GASyRTCWKa?dl=0
Can't tell you how excited I am to be part of this journey and getting all this help from you. You really, really have turned me around.
oh so KOOL but you have done all this not me
I had a look at your core video: Excellent! It explains and demonstrates things very well. Love it!
October 10, 2019
Good ride this morning. Carlotta hardly stopped and looked anymore, but instead did quite some PWs for deactivation. And she has found a new quirk: right after the warmup round in the beginning, she stops and does a bow. Eeek! Not good for her back, but how do I explain this to her? Even after a demanding (mentally) session, she comes down immediately and does little snorty clearning of sinus.
hahahaha - great though - OK so what I do with the bow with Star is ask him to engage his core during it - it is easier to begin to do this on the way up
maybe she needs to do it though
I had hung the feed bag at the tying rail and this time she walked up to it almost immediately, but seemed a bit tense about taking hay from it, as it moves a bit.
Thanks, that a great hint. Will try.
I have the feeling that she finds it good, as it's the third time she has been doing it. Wotan loves it too and does it allllll the way to the ground, even when I click very early
I think she will habituate to the moving, just see how it goes she should be right and work it out and relax
Goody. I wasn't overly worried, just thought it might not be ideal for her back.
yes if they are doing the bow and it is not simply to get a click and treat I would not discourage it, but just modify it a little
She is very good with the collected walking by now. Doesn't hold it for long, but is always happy to go back into it upon me lifting my pelvis.
great with the collected walking - so to get more out of it - down to stretch the topline and then collect again and heaps of social engagement - I do yes yes yes yes YES click treat
Yep, that's what I do. Bystanders would be very surprised about me talking to her so much when riding
Yes, good idea for the yes-yes-yes. Will add this.
After the ride, I took her bridle off and asked for feet to align, which she did. Then are you ready? and said "lift". She cheated and just rounded her poll. I laughed and said: nice try, but you can do better. And she went into the most beautiful crunch, lifting her back. Yay!
yeah for Carlotta and YEAH for you
October 10, 2019
Carlotta had a big fright yesterday. When unsaddling, I left the pads on her back as usual when I brought the saddle into the tack room. And there was a sudden wind gust that blew them off her back. She spooked and broke the baling twine she was tied to and took off in panic, followed by that nastly snake (leadrope). She finally stopped and I picked her up. Let her into the arena for a little while so she could deactivate.
Might take a while though... Valeta was cute: I saw her doing 2 mini crunches yesterday in the paddock. She must have copied this from Carlotta.
oh that would have been me and Star LOL - the snake is the worst! poor thing. At least she stopped before she injured herself. Yea I am glad you are not getting the other horse - Doug still has not got back to me in any event. Oh they love to copy for sure
I remember thinking to myself: maybe I should take the pads off as well, with that wind.... So I knew very well what I should have done
yep and it is always when we think this to ourselves but do not do it shit happens!
Yeah, you are so right about it. We should know by now to trust our gut feeling!
yep but it is only when we dont that we think about it - all the other times we actually do what our gut says and we never miss a beat - so we know when we are not going to listen to our gut - I reckon the gut has ESP and it is really telling us I know you wont listen but I am going to tell you so now so you know later!"
Hahaha, love it. And I think you are very right!
Off to town soon with Chris to pick up my repaired car. Then see what Carlotta thinks of being ridden. My lot are in the dam paddock for 24/7 and, gosh, Lotta is soooo FAT! She migt not want to be caught and leave horse paradise
hahahaha!
October 14, 2019
Took me a couple of minutes indeed before she allowed me to halter her. No wonder, I had just let them into the middle paddock - which is more interesting than being ridden of course. She was fine and no aftermath to yesterday's hickup. Whew.
Great!
Can I use this one as a dummy coaching video for the course....I like this one as you are beginning with the ground poles and Wotan gives you an attempt really quickly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_ODkNoo5j8
Haha, yes sure, use whatever dummy stuff you like
its not dummy stuff!!!!
Hehehe, couldn't resist He actually did quite well there.
yep for sure
It's just such a relief to have them in the paddock 24/7 now. No more picking up manure and all..
And my hay was sufficient in the end. I even have 17 bales left. Will keep one or two for emergencies and give the rest to Chris for her critters.
Sunday, will be at the Timeline Festival at Kryal Castle as photographer again, as they are short of volunteers. Amber is riding herself and Rachael might not be able to make it. And Margaret forgot to register with MEA to be able to be on the ground and covered from their insurance. Chris is all hyped up about it, as she needs Margaret as her groom (to put her into her armour). I said I'd help out there as well, if Margaret can't work it out in time.
Wish I could send my leftover hay to you!!!!
aghhh sounds busy over there! na we are fine, we dont use hay at all and there is plenty of grass at the moment - but how to convince the cows of this is another thing
I thought they would JUMP on it!
So good to hear that you have so much grass. What a relief!
oh they still want to be hand fed!
Spoiled little so-and-so's
yep and they are all yelling at me!
October 15, 2019
Ruth (my friend from Germany who visited last November) came up with an interesting suggestion: why not call the crunches "pose", as Alex Kurland did. She was the first one to teach it, I think. And pose sounds so much better than crunch. Crunch always makes me think of crunchy chocolate or corn flakes
I have called them activating the core - pose is different (ala Alex) - as she is not concerned with the core just the base of the cervical spine. in human terms it is a crunch technically and of course that is where all intrinzen come from
have a look at this and see all the near perfect panther walks....hahaha - agree? (this is why I am calling the pantherwalk a proper spanish walk) - especially nicole uphoff's
it is interesting that the actual extended trot as a still pic is the same process - of course this is why the panther walk is of benefit and is not the only reason we can see this is an extended trot (rather than a panther walk/spanish walk) because of the footfall?
hahahaha listen to Hannah Biggs explain how to begin in imagining
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCJ9gewfdRk
October 16, 2019
Quickly what happened this morning: Carlotta was very nervous without any apparent reason (no wind or whatever). During the whole ride, she shied and was jumpy and stopped very often to stare into the distance for ages. I think we spent 90% of the 10 minute ride just standing there... She also didn't want to walk to the one side of the arena and kept peeping over to neighbour's place, where was nothing to see.
In the end, i had enough and said: OK, stop it now, and at least walk once along there! Which she did, so I dismounted.
While she still had the saddle on, I asked her for a pole straddling (the last one had not been very successful, she always drifted away after a couple of steps) at liberty. She very carefully placed foot after foot, taking her time and standing still in between. When her two hind feet had just stepped left and right of the pole, I let her stand a moment longer, then praised and we walked away together.
Once turned loose in the paddock, while I was standing in front of her, she started to shake her head vigourously and pulled her lips a bit off her teeth. So I stepped to her side and asked for a crunch.
I wonder whether she felt offended that I had talked to her energetically , which I hadn't done in ages, and she wanted to let me know that she was cross with me?
Seeing how often she stops and just stands there, is gradually making me wonder whether, being the smart horse she is, she hasn't figured out that she can just stand there and not do any work when she stops and stares! What do you think?
we cannot always see what the horses see and something was worrying her - when she straddled we need to wait for as long as it takes for her to soak in the proprioception- that can take a long time - horses are honest only humans are dishonest - if it were one of my horses no matter how pissed off I was with it, I would have to smile and say to myself that they need what they need - I am not their judge - so when my pissed off feeling does resonate with them they pay me back big time. So you have to ask yourself - is the work what you want or what you are saying she needs - if she needs it then she has no autonomy as it is important - but if she does not need it - then why do we insist?
so you need to think about how it meant to you the times she got it and you gave her the opportunity to work it through - is that more or less important to you than your plans for 'work'?
have a look at this and see all the near perfect panther walks....hahaha - agree? (this is why I am calling the pantherwalk a proper spanish walk) - especially nicole uphoff's
Yes, it looks a lot like what we are doing with our horses, eh?! And Carlotta can do even better than some of the examples, I think!
hahahaha listen to Hannah Biggs explain how to begin in imagining
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCJ9gewfdRk
OMG! This makes me so uncomfortable. The way she moves her upper body and pelvis in such an excessive way, and the way the horse moves looks very weird to me. Do you think he is sound?! She says she isn't pushing all the time, but hell, she is!
we cannot always see what the horses see and something was worrying her - when she straddled we need to wait for as long as it takes for her to soak in the proprioception- that can take a long time - horses are honest only humans are dishonest - if it were one of my horses no matter how pissed off I was with it, I would have to smile and say to myself that they need what they need - I am not their judge - so when my pissed off feeling does resonate with them they pay me back big time. So you have to ask yourself - is the work what you want or what you are saying she needs - if she needs it then she has no autonomy as it is important - but if she does not need it - then why do we insist? â¦
Yes, I know I have to wait for her when she straddles. And I did, when she struggled the previous time and was willing to wait a lot longer, of course. So I was surprised how well she worked her way through it last time and even decided to place her hind feet over the pole. Didn't expect it to happen so soon.
so you need to think about how it meant to you the times she got it and you gave her the opportunity to work it through - is that more or less important to you than your plans for 'work'? â¦
Yes, it did mean a lot for me when she worked things out and gave me such wonderful moments. And yes, I am happy to giver her the time she needs. I was only wondering whether there really was so much anxiety that she has to stop all the time and for such a long time. Giving it more thought, it could very wrell be that there is indeed so much old stuff coming to the surface that it will take a long while to deactivate. I better go and apologize to her!
Giving her a few days off now and do some liberty playing instead.
yes with Hannah but she says think like a panther - you missed it!
Carlotta is fine, she is testing whether you mean what you 'say' LOL - they all go through this - go with it
No, I heard it and it made me giggle.
yes!
So, she is testing me! OK, will try to go with the flow.
yes but for a different reason than you think
OK, you just explained it to me. Pardon my occasional remissions
October 18, 2019
Had planned to play a bit with Carlotta today. While we walked to the tying post to take the rug off, she had to stop and look a lot, which I let her. Then into the arena and turned loose. I asked whether she wanted to straddle a bit, but she said no, rather eat grass. So went and picked up the manure then came back and took her to the paddock. She gave me a sour look when I took her halter off, so I stayed with her and said: I am so sorry Carlotta, I hope you can forgive me? And she turned her head to me, gave me a gentle look and touched my hand with her muzzle. Will take that for a "yes"....
Oh forgot: in the arena, Lotta offered me a few steps of PW before deciding that she didn't wanna today. I hadn't asked.
the panther walk may have been her go to for her if she was tense though - remember that is what she seems to offer the most - could it have made her confident so she did not need it any more?
Yes, it's difficult to tell what our horses think and feel at times. She didn't seem very confident today, more like struggling through her anxieties. It felt to me like a wish to communicate with me. But I am not sure about it, as she uses PW a lot indeed, be it for going through worried states, be it for showing off how proud and happy she is when she can say "I can".
Yes her PW is what she uses to get to 'i can' and it may be if you felt she was a little anxious that this was what she was doing it for. So if this happened to me - I would praise and praise and when she stopped see if she wanted to deactivate and if not maybe just do a little bladder meridian first to see if you can encourage it and then ask for something?
How do I do bladder meridian?
hang on Jim has a great video that is now public
I did say: Oooh, how lovely, thank you, Carlotta. That was great. And gave her rubs and scritchies.
https://mastersonmethod.com/the-bladder-meridian-technique-from-light-to-the-core-video/
yep good - think though deactivate first - I was actually just making a comment on your video about that .....I had to redo it as something went wrong with the audio - but nearly all done, just want to do a couple of picture in pictures for it - so in this case think about if she was anxious, pats and scratches may be too 'in her face' until she deactivates
OK, makes sense. I might bring her in a bit this arvo and see what she has to say. Fabulous video! I found it quite disturbing how the man constantly fumbled with the leadrope though. But it sounds like a great technique. Will try it on Carlotta asap. Thanks a lot, Julie!
Jims videos and books are really good
Very interesting experience right now: Brought Lotta in to put the rug on and thought it would be a good opportunity to try the Bladder Meridian touching. Had watched the video a second time, just in case.
As soon as I started to gently and slowly run my fingertips from her poll along the neck, she started to do crunch after crunch! All the way down to the tail!!! I told her that this time, we were just doing some feel-good stuff, so no need to try to please me
At second try, I started near her eye. She was not sure about it and started to breath a bit heavily, then moved her hind legs a bit, but then her eyes started to close and she stood there very relaxed.
yes Sharney does that sometimes I have had all my practical training years ago for masterson and my feeling is that it is avoidance. So for me it is actually not about pleasing but rather it is the crunch that gives us the skill to continue to feel sensations that we are not quite sure what to make of them
Then along the neck, where I found a "blink spot" halfway. A bit of fidgeting again and then she deacitivated. Another spot in the loin area.
I was quite impressed how distinctively she reacted to this.
yes once they actually experience the sensation and 'see it through' they can tolerate it - if it happens like that again then go to air pressure - so just touching the hairs not the actual body - but yes it is really good how she reacted - perfect - masterson is really great
Then put the rug on and turned her free in the paddock. She took off with Valeta and Wotan in a happy bucking-kiccking-gallopping sequence and finished with a straight rear up and stood on her hind feet for about 3 secs. Then came down and let out a series of happy little snorts!
Jim always said that if there is anything all horse owners should learn is the bladder technique even if they dont do his courses or buy his stuff - thats why this one is for free as it is an updated video of what he had always available
yep they always do this after a bladder session! well done!
Thank you, Julie. Do you mind if I share our exchange on my Timeline? Could be so helpful for other horse owners.
I now do it straddling or on the mat but they usually get it once a week - yes for sure he made this public - his later videos on dressage and masterson are really good. I have not seen the video that his extract came from and will be ordering it when I get my pay next week
I had slightly removed my hand when I felt her a bit unsure about it, and she happily responded and came down.
Hey, great!
OK yes he recommends we use less pressure when this happens so the less pressure is actually off her skin to 'touching' the hairs only
I followed as an 'apprentice' a practitioner around and did horses under her supervision but could never afford to attend the actual classes
October 19, 2019
Sharney just did her first Ballotade today LOL - too foggy to film but I will see what I can do to get this on cue
So the videos will be on their way today for you - also there is the coaching one I was going to use from your video - it is in your folder but in case you cant find it here it is
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7b5vgav390tr9k7/Coaching%20feedback%20Yvonne1comp.mp4?dl=0 tell me what you think as I can redo it
Oh wow, so much positive feedback from you on the Wotan video. Thank you
Loved it how you comment on the little things that happen and how you address what could happen with another horse in the same situation. Very precious for many people for the development of their relationship with their horse, I would say!
it looks OK for you? that's the style I tend to use and what I taught Steinar to do LOL - so thats what I am going to be doing for the online coaching
oh great! thats my intention - that it may not apply to you now (or even then) but the same actions with another horse and human combo could be different
so the coaching with the course is for everyone so the idea I hope is that they learn through someone elses coaching and then hopefully they wont be too timid to submit video
Perfect! It's a great way of teaching. And yes, I am sure it will happen. I would just put in a note with the coaching programme about being brave and sending in their videos
yep it will be all over it LOL
Hahaha, good!
October 20, 2019 .
Quickie before I go: very windy today again. I went out and opened the gate to the paddock, but the horses just stood and watched, so I decided to take Carlotta's rug off. She stood there calmly for me, just in front of the open gate! Once it was off, she took off in a gallop, followed by her friends.
While they were grazing, I approached each of them, had a little chat and gave them scritchies. Not that I have to approach Valeta, she comes to me all the time . Carlotta wasn't interested at all and turned and walked away. So scritchies to Wotan, then I walked towards her again (CAT). After 2 or 3 retreats, she sudeenly was happy for me to come close and extend my hand to her muzzle. She licked it, seemed to have enough, so I started to walk away and stopped again. And she came to me and wanted to interact again. So, I hope she isn't too mad at me anymore.
thats great with Carlotta, I think she is fine, sometimes horses have to shout at us to help us see what they need LOL - this is a credit to you because she feels she has autonomy - I would much prefer my horses to show me how they feel rather than feel they cant (but inside they wish they could)
And your horses CAN!
they can now LOL - but I remember when.....
Yes, of course, but that was foreseeable, as you have that inclination to help deeply traumatized horses
This morning, I also gave Wotan a little Bladder meridian touch this morning from the poll down. Got about 5 cm along the neck, then he blinked, so I stopped. But he couldn't tolerate it (was at liberty) and decided to slowly walk away. But I could see how the wheels turned in his head! He looked a bit torn apart between the wish to stay and the need to leave.
OK so when he does not tolerate it, we go to what Jim calls Airgap - leave your finger/s there but lift them higher off so you are imagining you are touching a hair standing up on his coat - yes this can happen - this is what air gap is - all will be clear soon - oh dont look at the practitioner ones (1-5) until you have looked at the others as they will confuse you
Now, that didn't go well. From reasonable wind and sunshine it turned, within minutes, into gale gusts with horizontal strong rain. Got soaked in the blink of an eye.
Wanted to try the bladder meridian work with Wotan, but he was pretty nervous with that wind (and Greg coming out with his camera and tripod). And he thought that me touching his neck might be some variation of my head-lowering cue, so kept responding to it....
Anyway, I am uploading the 2 vids for you, FIWF. Just to show that things can go pear-shaped very easily.
On the way back to the paddock, Wotan jumped on my heels twice and snorted. Showed that Greg and his gear had moved to the other side of the shed, but Wotan had already noticed... .
Got Carlotta and wanted to give it a try with her, but it was then that the weather turned ugly. So decided to put the rug on her. That was not fun, as the gale kept lifting it off her back, so I would have needed another set of hands. Managed to get it on, as she tried her best to stand still for me. Back to paddock. She followed me with her eyes and wondered why I was already leaving. Breaaathe... I-am-relaaaxed.....
hahahahaha! yep gale like weather will do it every time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TdqRl9qnNw&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quI19a5SNQg&feature=youtu.be
I think in the shorter one he was fine, it was the weather, you cant really blame horses for not wanting to relax and give it over in that wind
Of course not! Let's wait for better weather. yep for sure!
with Wotan how is he now with SATS? I would like to try the panther walk using SATS...are you up to it - It make sense to me to use the pointer instead of the pool noodle - my horses are far to 'gone' to see the earlier stages
Would have to practise a bit with him, Julie. Will get to it asap. Have this Dr's appt tomorrow, then need to process my 450 photos from today, but after that, will give it a go!
October 21, 2019
yes no it is not a problem I want to see if it can be done the same way as SATS I think it can - instead of using a pool noodle to teach the panther walk Can we use the tap on the leg with the pointer as we are walking and get the same result?
BTW, I think you can get PW easily via touching legs with pointer. That's what I do all the time from the saddle, and Carlotta has taken to it like a duck to water. Yep I just cant backpaddle and I dont want to go to other horses at the moment LO.
Had a busy afternoon taking videos. First Wotan, getting a refresher for SATS, then we started trying Panther Walk with the pointer. He didn't lift much, but I felt his intention in his body. Maybe you sharp eye will spot the minimal elevation. Then did the same at liberty. Then thought I might ask Carlotta to do it as well, as she definitely shows lift, also from the ground. And finally added one under saddle. I was just itching too much to have a little ride, even though it was very short. And Carlotta said she would make the effort for you. Will take a long while to upload it all, but I will send it through, as soon as it's done. Hopefully there will be something useful in there.
Last one first: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5PFTQDceVc&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxDGc2DaxZ4&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnH9jRwamxI&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWm1Q-A3Rhk&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1tPxXOBH0c&feature=youtu.be
October 22, 2019
Carlotta looks happy - her first PW under saddle was really effortful for sure! on the ground, see she responds to your leg and body cues - this is why I cant do it with my guys - as they also already know it LOL
hahaha yea the straddling is coming on nicely - OK so the PW is a little hard to see what it is you are clicking for - but that may be because he already knows some of it - however you have given me an idea - just going to look at the last one here first Ok so the SATS is good - there is a delay with the front leg click for some reason - I thought it was the audio but the other clicks are as expected. So if we want the leg to lift now we ask and if there is no lift - wait a sec or two and then ask again - so if we are comfortable with the naming then we wait for a lift - the easiest way I found with the back legs was to ask by putting the pointer behind the foot resting on the back of the pastern and almost thinking that it was going to lift the hoof - it seems that the lift is more under the belly when this happens rather than out the back and is also less reactionary. Yep the PW is already too entrenched so what you are doing is clicking for better lifts. But your idea with the ground poles is also a great way to begin and intrinzen had always left this to advanced stages but really the actual lift can also be shaped this way by touching and clicking the moment the leg reaches over the pole - good one! Tue 10:04 AM All interesting and helpful hints, Julie. Do you want me to practise some more with Wotan and then make video again, so hopefully you can use it then? So, you are saying: in SATS with him, I touch the leg with the pointer, and if he doesn't lift it, I don't click, but wait 2 secs and then ask again? And if he doesn't react, do I click or not? How about I touch his front legs on the back of the pastern too? Might activate his awareness, as it didn't seem to be the case up to now? Bear in mind that this was only the third SATS session - sorry have not done much with him. Yep, I thought the poles might help lengthen and lift the stride and they did. Not much, but definitely it happened. The video is too far away with how you have to position it and I cannot scale your videos up that much - I am just adding a wrap up to your coaching one
and when I go to scale up some examples of the crunches I cant really scale up as it distorts. and in these the crunches were allot closer to the camera - but yes if you are videoing him then see what comes of it - I played around with it with Sharney today and although I can get the 'instructional' vibe I would love to have a video of progress
if you are confident that the SATS is clear then yes wait for a time when the leg is not square and touch and ask and if there is no movement dont click and wait and then ask again - start with even clicking a change in balance - make sense? that would be a good moment by moment video
you can try the back of the pastern with the front ones - there are sensory nerves around there and the coronet
yes the poles are really a good idea - I love it! and Greg may get too bored - or it may encourage the pixeo - thats how I got mine as hub was sick of videoing
Carlotta can do much more spectacular Panther Walks under saddle, she just wasn't in the mood to be brilliant yesterday
Wotan will be famous when he appears in your programme
hahahaha well lets hope someone wants to do it
here is the updated one - the change is at the end - just added more https://www.dropbox.com/s/hc3ltwecv0aypbh/Yvonne%20coaching1amcomp.mp4?dl=0
Placed the camera with another lense (which has a zoom) in the corner or arena and tried to work with Wotan. But he was completely "gone" mentally, maybe because he felt how upset I was. So gave up after a while and grabbed more robust Valeta.
Of course she had done only one SATS session and no panther walk at all, so not ideal. But she did very well, so here are 2 vids from the session. Maybe I should use her from now on, what do you think?
I think she might learn PW quite quickly. She is three now, so might be OK age-wise?
I feel that crunches have to come before PW and Valeta is still growing so you would have to be very careful
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi0cozom6nU&feature=youtu.be
OK, I can start teaching it a bit here and there maybe. Will try Wotan again tomorrow.
did you see the end of the coaching video...what did you think of it if you have?
hey that is pretty good with the SATS - and you swapped hands for the treat at one stage
think about setting her up for success - so here at 1.53 her weight was on that foot - so I would have asked for the other front - but that was great
Just had a quick look in the second one. She does some nice little lifts over the pole. Unfortunately it's a bit blurry. No idea how this could happen - I had checked, grrrr.
hahahahahahaha - wasnt Greg supposed to be in charge of that ? but the SATS was a great start - can I use it?
That's why I am making them for you, Julie. Use whatever seems useful to you.
No, Greg pulled out of it, so I had to do it myself
thanks!!!!! oh OK LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdehZQndEEQ&feature=youtu.be
Checkend the 2 minutes you added at the end of the Wotan video. Excellent. Very helpful explanations!
Ok great! ta
yep this is really good - now the click timing could be a little quicker - so as soon as the accidental bump happens click - we almost have to anticipate it coming - so it is also an exercise in feeling - have your thumb on the clicker and rather than look down set the pointer so that she can always bump it and feel for the vibration - remember these early days are to teach the connection to her leg so that when we move it out a little further away she will aim to bump it - make sense?
A lot of sense. Will have to watch my timing indeed!
Thank you for the reminder of the clicking for the accidental leg bump! That had a bit disappeared in the dungeons of my mind, haha.
Oh, and the long stare into the distance in the first video was that a mare with hew newbord foal had entered the neighbouring paddock. Which was, of course, very interesting
yes I figured that there was something interesting - here it is usually roos. we all forget to begin with the accidental bumping hahahaha
I noticed you began your leg movement, far too early but I have done that also beginning a new horse - so it is good for me to be reminded how clear my instructions need to be for my FINAL section and when it is all done then you will see it in its finality
Would you prefer me to work on core activation before continuing with the Panther Walk? Might go out and see whether Carlotta wants to play a bit. Will give her a bit more time off riding. off from riding*
oh you cant help yourself LOL - I think you need to stop thinking and try what you feel when the moment hits you and if you get a hint that something other than what you thought you were going to do is better then go with the flow - see what happens
That's a bit what I actually did. I was originally planning to ride...
yep good one LOL - oh I meant to ask did you feel that showing the actual vertebrae's of the horse makes it easier to visualise where we get the core activation from?
Yes, absollutely!
Have done a bit of bladder meridian. Took vids. Uploading now. OK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb1-RxWnyUA&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zM1Pk4L_2TM&feature=youtu.be
October 23, 2019
If this were me doing a horse the flaring of the nostrils is a sign to me to reduce the pressure and just stay there a little longer - but it could also be in response to something she was noticing - do you remember what is more likely for her? She looks like she so wants to participate in the first video LOL - it does take them some getting used to
There was a lot of stuff happening around, Julie, like neighbour turning water pump on, rolling wheelie bin outside, his wife pruning some shrubs, motorbikes and bikes driving past etc. All this distracted her, so not ideal really.
Carlotta is somewhat a bitunwillig to be caught these days. So I said to her, OK let's do a little ride, but we will keep it very easy.
So we did, just 6 or 7 minutes of walking, allowing her to stand and look until deactivation, then a bit more, some laterals at walk, a couple of times over the poles, then 10 or 20 steps in collection. She is going into those so easily now, feels like she really masters her body
And this time I managed to dismount without touching her croup with my leg. Yay!
Then asked her for a CA (I understood we are calling the crunches Core Activation now, correct?), and she lined up her legs into a perfect square position and did a beautiful CA.
Back in the paddock, she decided to lie down and have a roll, so I jumped on the opportunity (we hadn't done this in ages) and clicked her into a sit-up. Which she did very calmly and staying into position until I released my inner intention. Was the best one I ever saw from her!
so it is good she is mastering them but I wonder why she is not motivated to come to you when she sees she is going to be 'caught'. yay for your dismount! yea I want to stay away from the intrinzen terms as much as I can so core activation is actually the bio mechanical term for it - sounds like a great one though - the sit up is interesting - I used to want to free shape these with Star until I realised that it is actually a capacity issue that prevented him from standing from the roll, so he would always sit first - because he could not stand straight up
That's interesting. Carlotta never seemed able to stay in a sit position for longer than a fraction of a second, she always rushed back into standing. So this was a big breakthrough for her today. Also capacity, as it looks.
oh Star used to sit for about 1 minute! before he could actually get up and sometimes he would turn on his bum to find the right slope to stand
For the not wanting to be caught, I have the suspicion that this is still a little bit of leftover grudge because of my treason to our pact.
oh well it could be hahahahaha - love autonomy
October 24, 2019
Posting on my Timeline:
An update on our current horsie activities at home.
After scraping off lots of loose hair from Wotan and Valeta (the nervy side of Iceys, hehe), we did a bit of playing in the arena. Wotan enjoys the pole straddling, so we did this at liberty. He has now decided that it needs to be initiated with a bow, right at the beginning of the pole. OK, if you think this is the way to do it - fine by me! :-D
After a long time, also had Valeta in for a little session. Took videos of it, as this might be part of an upcoming online coaching programme (a very special one, trust me!). This time it was about teaching SATS (naming body parts and let the horse figure out how to react to it). This is a prerequisite for the Panther Walk, taught in a different way. Valeta had had one single introductory session of it a long while ago. But, of course, she is so incredibly smart that she perfectly remembered, and we could build on it immediately. Within no time, she responded to me pointing to the various legs by lifting them. Well done, Valeta!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi0cozom6nU
As you can hear in the video, I am working on my social engagement skills too, which are an important part of the above programme. And I can attest that it makes a huge difference!
We could also introduce walking (which she didn't know either) together and me pointing with my pointer. I had forgotten the details (thanks, Julie, for refreshing my memory), so will need to repeat this one, in order to make things clearer for Valeta.
I had given Carlotta a couple of days off, but yesterday back to riding, yay. I usually do short sessions (between 10 and 20 minutes, depending on how it goes), putting emphasis not on quantity and length, but on quality. Which means a minute or two of intense work on various tasks and then half a round of reins-on-withers and stretchies. She comes down immediately and sighs or snorts, after whatever strenuous stuff we did just before. I really like it. When she feels she has to stop and look, I always let her, just sit there passively and wait for her to deactivate and tell me she can carry on. Which happens more and more quickly. Very worth-while as it adds to her self-confidence and inner peace, which has always been a stumbling block for her at times, so I am trying to go to the root of it and hopefully one day allow her to leave all anxiety and worries behind her.
This is a pretty difficult thing for me (or was in the past, and I did fall into that trap again recently, and Carlotta was really pissed off with me for a while, as I had broken our contract), as we humans are always so impatient and full of ourselves and tend to not even think about giving the horse the possibility to have a say in the matter.
I can see some of my friends roll their eyes! But be assured, this is not some form of pussyfootsiness, where human lets horse do anything horse wants, like walking all over human etc. It is an attempt to become real friends and partners, allowing the horse autonomy, without this hindering a smooth work together. I had my doubts about this, but I must say, it works incredibly well, despite all the glitches that happen, due to my still imperfect work. Having a horse that "talks" with you as a partner, is an incredibly rewarding experience, which makes your heart sing!
Anyway, enough of this. Just wanted to explain the why's behind my recent posts. ;-)
It is such a delight to ride Carlotta. She responds so softly and willingly that I can never wipe the bright smile off my face and it makes my whole day happy and wonderful in aftermath. And I am amazed how much control of her body and core she has already gained. She offers me collection of her own, free will and looks and feels so proud and feather-light, yet very powerful.
Thank you, my Beautiful!
October 25, 2019
Nice ride this morning, with collection and all. And afterwards, still with saddle on, I asked for CA. She just tucked her chin in, so I said "besser" (which means better) and she did a really beautiful on. I could see the saddle go up considerably, and almost no backward movement.
great with Carlotta
October 26, 2019
are you able to do a short video with just using the pool noodle as the beginning step in panther walk? so no walking it yourself - just walking around with the noodle right near the leg (below the knee) and click for every accidental touch? change sides often...maybe using Valenta as she would not 'know' it yet? dont worry about core posture or anything - just trying to find video of the actual early starts and I am still looking LOL
Sure, can do. Can it wait until tomorrow? Weather is horrible today: strong wind and rain.
yep for sure ta
do you want a copy ? https://www.equitopiacenter.com/shop/how-to-recognize-the-24-behaviors-indicating-pain-in-the-ridden-horse-dr-sue-dyson/
OK, got a bit of the vid footage you need, before the rain arrived. Hope it will be useful. Will send you both vids, but I think the first one (her very first try) isn't that good, as I forgot to change sides. Duh!
The second one might be usable. Please let me know if you want me to try again, in case it's not good enough.
In the first one, she was still confused about what I wanted, but understood quickly. I suppose it won't be long before she will start lifting her legs - already showing tendencies to try it
She is a bit uncomfy with my on her right side, but we should get over this quickly, once we have done it a few times.
I briefly took her off the lead at the end of the second one, but the lush spring grass at the sides of the arena quickly was more tempting than the poolnoodle, hahaha.
Ok so it is good if she was unsure as this is how most begin to do it
Yep, you want to show the beginnings, not the perfect pictute
yep and even not changing sides is good as most forget this intially
First one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1aJxVucEWs&feature=youtu.be
Haha, and the handler fumbling with lead rope, clicker and poolnoodle
yep LOL - I think it is fine, will have a close look after it is downloaded as the internet is slow -just waiting for the vet to turn up - something is not right with Sharney - so be back later
Second one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkKen2GWDFg&feature=youtu.be
Oooh no! Hope it's nothing serious. Sending Sharney hugs!
ta not sure, of course now she is eating but she was giving flesman type responses all morning, was not interested in doing anything and has been trying to 'gulp' when her neck is oustretched when she curls the lip - except there is no blockage I can see and she is not doing the usual discharge from the nostrils - I would rather pay and be told nothing is wrong than leave it - as it could be a stick or something in her teeth or worse or colic (she has some gut sounds but not allot) or pain somewhere - she is not herself so I decided I did not want to wait it out any longer as she was under the tree down in the paddock for hours unsettled and doing the fleshman thing
Good idea to have her checked early! Would do the same! Keeping her in my loving thoughts
Just watched a short introductory vid about the pain video you were talking about. Sounds like it is really worth getting a copy. So: yes, please.
Oct 27, 2019, 1:36 PM
Ok, so he cant see that there is anything stuck in there and she did most of what she had been doing. He wants to wait for 2 days and see what she does but he also wants to scope her and send the camera down to make sure - he feels it is best to be proactive so he will make his mind up about that on tuesday when I call him as long as it does not get worse
yep I will subscribe to it - I have done a few of their other courses so it is quite good information
here they are https://www.dropbox.com/sh/s5r10wfz67sh580/AAAc5DJT5ipno7vt2A65FQyQa?dl=0
Sharney 4 and Star 3 are my favourites. What d'ya think? Sharney 1 is kinda cute too
yes for Sharney 4 or 1 - Star 3 is his typical pose but his eyes are a little closed in this - his eyes are usually like no 5
so are you ready to beta test the online course?
Had Carlotta under saddle at 8 a.m. today, as it was already pretty warmed up. She got all the time she needed to watch around etc., as she does a lot at the moment. She also tells me that she is uncomfy with coming to the tying-rail MB for me dismounting, so we do it at the pedestal in the arena. Once unsaddled, I took her back tot he arena briefly, and a soon as I draped the lead rop over her neck, she immediately arranged her 4 feet into square position and when I said "are you ready" she did a beautiful CA. So lovely!
yeah for Carlotta
About Carlotta: I noticed over the last few days that she seems a lot less interested in treats, once I have clicked (under saddle). Walking off calmly seems more reinforcing for her. And my comments of her being so good and wonderful and clerver etc
yes that can happen and thats fine, the clicker could also be becoming a secondary reinforcer
as well as your comments to her
Interesting what you say about clicker and social interaction. But I feel you are spot on! Gosh, have I changed....
oh hahahaha! oh yes the clicker and our tones can for sure be used without the treat Will need some getting used to this, as it had been drummed into me by Alex that the click is a promise, which MUST be fullfilled by a treat.
Just started to read.
The Aims of the Workshop is so beautifully written. Love it!
oh ta. OK yes you need to keep an open mind with clicker as Alex's is not the 'only' way when we look at it from a behavioural perspective - but also remember her stuff 'then' is very dated take your time with the course - it will take me a few days to get the rest of this crap organised and do the last video collage
Oh, anyother thing I noticed with Carlotta: the area just behind her "cheeks" (lymph knots) was always pretty puffy, like swollen. But recently this has started to diminish and maybe soon will be gone completely. Strange! But lovely, for sure!
OK so thats also a good sign with Carlotta - maybe it is an immune response? also too remember the ventral vagus nerve has huge blood supply that runs up into the head - social engagement!
October 28, 2019
Reading the chapter Core Exercises Introduction. And this just jumped at me: Puts a âspringâ in our horseâs step Isn't that soooo true! I notice it every day!
yep it sure does = partly it is the effect of mastery and partly core activation - we all know that when our horses feel good they have many moments of suspension and of course Kathy is correct when she says that the natures painkillers are at work but we have to be careful with the 'parking brake' methodology of intrinzen because it is based on human science and humans can get xrays and scans readily and we know if there are issues or not - we cannot see this in horses - and this pain ethology course is so good - as it highlights the asymmetrical areas that are 'pain' not a nervous system parking brake - I have both and I KNOW the difference - horses dont. As for the course it will be a while before I finish it but I am copying it - or
November 1, 2019
Now, here is another attempt with the mat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykeRRdbYSbk&feature=youtu.be
Do you think it's a good start? I tried to be very patient and give her lots of time, as well as threw in a bit of bladder meridian, wither wiggles etc, and a (not so good) CA, to comfort her.
And here is a short one of Core Activation. The only two good ones are at the end. Sorry I was too close and the first one is too dark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcksqsPZra8&feature=youtu.be
I can see what you were trying to achieve with the mat - but she was not able to leave and she wanted to - I love her PW but see her mind was away from the mat not towards it. I think you did the best with her given she really wanted to leave - and I saw the temptation to lure was too powerful LOL - why not treat the mat as a scary object - the same as we would do with the float in CAT - so as we cannot move the float away we can use a little of the BAT stuff here - lead her to a place where she notices the mat but does not 'react' and wait for a calming sign or deactivation and take her away - you may very well be at the other end of the arena at first - so CAT approach and remember the reinforcement is taking her away - we will use the clicker only when she shows any masterful movement attempt...make sense?
her core work is getting really good! hahahaha you will not know yourself once you get the pixio
November 3, 2019
Great ride this morning, just before the rain kicked in. (hope you have got some more rain too) The highlight was Carlotta spontaneously offering a spectacular spanish trot, was her own decision. And she also did several CA's while we stood and had a little rest.
November 4, 2019
great for Carlotta!
November 6, 2019
nteresting again this morning. Carlotta needs to stop a lot and look on the way to the tying rail. And she suggests a stop at a juicy grass spot, which I take, i.e. walk her another step or two, then point to the grass and let her eat.
We are also working a bit on going down the little slope at arena door, then stop and walk backwards up. She can now, after it has been an issue for a long time. One try at each riding session. She says that she wants to stand at the pedestal now for mounting and dismounting. OK, why not. Windy today and she had a spook in place right at the first "lookout", but then came back to me mentally.
OK thats good - what platform are they using? So thats good that she is able to back now - what do you put this down to? and she is choosing the pedestal so I guess there is a reason LOL
November 9, 2019
I am very pleased that she is now able, when cantering, to softly follow my focus and outside rein cue and turns on it very easily. Maybe one day we will be able to do canter pirouettes
yes I am sure you will be able to do them soon
Hahah, yes, there is some anxiety when it comes to stopping, so doing this on a downward slope, and knowing that she will have go go back up backwards, is into it too. When she signals during riding that she cannot stop on my light seat cue, I let her carry on and wait for a better time. Empowerment and decisions, yeah
November 10, 2019
The pixio is here, yay!
Conditions weren't ideal, as I had changed the setup of the arena, it was windy, and then we know how sensitive Carlotta is to any change, so the beacons were a slight worry, as well as the tripod in the middle. And of course the new position of the ground poles made them dangerous to walk over....
She stopped in her favourite corner several times, but deactivated fairly quickly. Towards the end, she gave me a bit of spanish trot, the good girl. Greg came out with his camera, so we could try to capture it on photos as well, but she didn't wanna... Never mind.
All in all, she was trying to be very brave and overcome her anxiety, so she could perform for me. My sweet Princess.
thats great about the pixio
this is the link for the compatible cameras - and you can see the ones that take the multi cable - but there is the manual and if you go to whats there you will see the pics of the cables - you cannot mistake one for the other https://shop.movensee.com/en/content/23-pixio-robot-cameraman-support
November 17, 2019
I noticed that the swelling of Carlotta's lymph glands has gone down even more - they are hardly noticeable anymore
She still needs to stop very often, mainly when walking from the paddock to the saddling area, and deactivate, but I am educated enough now not to become offended, and let her
She is very supple under saddle, even in one-handed riding with the exercises from Jec's book - I can feel the lovely bend going through her body. Feels great.
She is still worried about going down the tiny slope through the arena gate and isn't able to stop when I ask her to go too far. When it happens, I quietly turn her around and we walk "uphill" and through the gate, then stop, and then back out of the gate and downhill again, which she can do well. So many anxieties hidden in her...
Lotta still loves to stop in her favourite corner, which is a good deactivation place. When she is ready, I sometimes still do nothing, and she then gives me a CA. Becoming a lot nicer and I can often feel a wither lift now. She seems to enjoy the exercise.
We are now working on walk pirouettes, in preparation for canter pirouettes. As she lifts so nicely now upon my request, we practice doing these with light front end and haunches engaged. Will take some more time...
I have banned the dressage whip for the moment, as I want to developp the Panther Walk upon a mere voice cue. Sometimes she is in the mood... and sometimes she isn't
When I ask for something very difficult (or new), like half-pass along the fence, immediately afterwards she goes into PW to slow herself down mentally again.
She can't do them yet with a pole in front of her, so we use the arena fence as an intermediate stage. Will see what Anke thinks of her new posture when she comes on Friday.
yes the vagus nerve runs down past the lymph glands - the more you allow her the time and then giving her something exciting to do then the better this will be. Yes but she is feeling safe enough to show you what she is worried about and thats a plus and also that she chooses what works for her - be interesting to see what Anke thinks
I just love it how it happens now!
Will keep you updated. I am not experienced enough with classical dressage to be certain of my own judgement, that's why it will be good to get Anke's input.
yep it can be hard with classical and also so many different 'views' - I mean to say that lymph glands also activate when there is excessive cortisol and this is something I have noticed in myself the last couple of weeks - so you are helping her with the reduction of any excessive cortisol as well. I am just trying to reconcile some stuff in my head from Dr Steve Porgess - I re-read his book the last couple of days and I have always thought that what he says from a neuroscience perspective is an excuse to stress horses and this has not changed - just wish my head would cope with more than a couple of hours a day at the moment
oppps not porgess LOL but Steve Peters
Wow, sounds like a matter that makes your brain steam ;-)
yes as he says the lick and chew is a dopamine reaction (implying it is good and that thinking is occurring) - I am pretty up on neuroscience and did this as a minor for my honors degree in psychology - he says you want the horse to stress to learn - now I have re-read the book and looked back on some of his blogs I am angrier than ever BUT I have to think about do you want activate to grow the window of tolerance or do you want long term potentiatation through modeling and doing as you do - recognising the issue allowing a deactivation (but you did not cause the stress to do so) and then begin again - see it is about motivation through learning - so we can skim something and we dont take allot in, but if we learn by hearing the 'learning' in a way that is interesting and exciting for us - we keep it - this is what the modeling should do - so I just need to think on this and keep doing what I am as it is really interesting (and again separates me from Sarah as goes somatic experiencing) and focuses back on polyvagal which is where you are and where I 'was' ..the social engagement and dissipating the build up in the nervous system - as this disrupts learning!
the modeling is really interesting and is my assignment question I am battling with LOL hence the reason I am back looking at something that I was a little dismissive about initially (as the research is not as robust as I would like)
I just wish I could keep my mind on this and not the fires but we are fine tonight and tomorrow I think so fingers crossed and with this southerly buster we are getting now we may be fine to video tomorrow.
18 November 2019
it was interesting today as I went into one of the large paddocks with the pad and as soon as Star saw it he came running to it and nickers all the way - engaging with it - so praise but then I put it on Sharney and she started panther walking around him nickering almost saying see what fun you are missing out on, then on Star and he did the same and she went panther walking around with him (me in between them) - so the changes are long lasting - I just wish I could video LOL too much smoke . the changes are the modelling and interrupting the memory trace quicker and not getting to a mild stress response (which means allowing the deactivation) - see if there is a stress response there must be some time to get the deactivation process going BUT the memory literature I am currently focusing on suggests that there may be a time when the trigger is there BEFORE the stress response where there can be an opportunity for the NEW memories to be laid down - so in CAT terms changing the mind about the trigger. In polyvagal terms engaging the social engagement system.
so the new memories can interrupt the consolidation of the old fear memories - the time interval varies depending on what one reads but it seems to be very short - I just want to work with this for a few days because it seems to me that his mind has really changed
Um, I am struggling a bit with understanding this. But I am sure it will become much clearer over the next days.
hahahaha - well give me a couple of days and I hopefully will have it explained but the idea is NOT to instigate the fear response but simply to always work under the threshold of tolerance and make the appearance of the pad FUN and exciting - so 1. movement work that creates mastery 2. social engagement 3. have a stable horse model a good interaction with the pad 4. work under the window of tolerance - so that the memory of stress is not confirmed into the long term memory (so change from no I know this will scare me to yeah lets have fun with it) 5. if we get a stress response allow deactivation and go slower to consolidate a good response then STOP
Makes me want to try it out with Carlotta and the mat. But I will wait a bit longer, until I really KNOW what to do
yep for sure - it just makes sense to me where I need to tweak things - but for me also I need a few more days to consolidate, video and see whether the effects are long lasting - the research is huge in this area - there is a nice laymans video of the theory (as a general proposition) here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0P1uk7tmyk
Will look at it later. About to take Wotan to Danielle now. Thanks for the material.
26 November 2019
Here are the clinic videos. Anke rides Carlotta: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ueo9t2mQ-QY
I have persevered and looked at the first video - the internet is too slow to watch the others now - I am seeing allot of tension and anxiety - sorry Carlotta goes allot better with you - I will watch the rest when the internet will at least stream these very long videos LOL
Brave girl. To be fair to Anke, it is not easy to ride a horse like Carlotta when you are not used to her. And she makes it very clear that I am her rider and not somebody else
But she did settle down for Anke in the end and they did some nice things together. What I really liked in this video (only noticed this once I watched it) is her social engagement with Carlotta, constantly quietly talking to her and explaining what she is doing and wanting to achieve etc.
27 November 2019
I thought the last video was good but Carlotta started to loose it as she was 'encouraged' to take the corner - not sure if you have got back to the workshop but it is finished and am just waiting for the company to check something for me about the forms that I need to lodge with the USA (I have lodged them before but I think they have to be lodged for each venture) - the whole first and second chapter are changed based on my research and what I have now been experimenting with and am much more comfortable with reconstruction rather than Sarahs 'up' to deactivate and then down again - see whether it rings bells for you now that I have tried to simplify it
28 November 2019
Wow, you are giving such wonderful and patient advice to Jacqueline Boog on Intrinzen!
oh ta but I fear that many of the suggestions that some have made will lead her astray. Steinar wants me to try and get to the bottom of these 'problems' in case they turn into big ones. He of course is using it as market research to see exactly what he does for coaching on his website (and the videos he will be making). He is to talk to me tomorrow I think about what exactly is his wish list for my involvement in his model (as well as check some drafts I have done for him to send to kathy - to tell her what she can and cant do with the project and also an announcement on the FB page for him). When I see his wish list I will tell him what I want in return - one of the things I have said to him is that if he is going to recommend any clicker training programs it must be mine- I am happy to change things if he finds something he is stuck on, if I agree, or add more information (which was going to all be in part 2 when I get back to it), but that has to be a given as far as I am concerned. I said I would author his coaching videos and he and I agree on the format and how this will be done - but there has to be more in it for me - so we shall see.
Hahaha, he is aiming for more free work from you. But really, that's enough now, don't you think? He has written "exploiter" all over his forehead, IMO.
Have done some more work on Harry. Processing the pix right now. I think his right eye lid needs to be made smaller, and maybe his neck is a bit too thick? Wanted to get your opinion before I change it though.
As soon as that darn slow programme is done, I will send it.
1st December 2019
Carlotta was wonderful, and I was very proud of her how she handled all those leaves, flying and swirling vividly towards us. Your patient coaching is showing its effects.
So funny when it tickled me to see whether she could do the Tennesse Walker Walk. You must not use any seat for his, only allow your calves to gently bump her sides when the correponding hind leg (of the hrose) leaves the ground.
yes I actually remember how to do that
I am very pleased that Carlotta can now trot. And that Andy trot she offered me today was certainly pretty spectacular (felt like it).
3 December 2019
OK. I thought bringing Valeta in for some mat fun and maybe let Carlotta just be present in the arena and do what she likes. What d'ya think of this?
yes this would be good - see this way you can take advantage of modelling - funny I am just trying to get back to the assignments I have to do for stage 2 of the NAC quals and I am writing about latent learning as we speak which is exactly what we are speaking about with modelling. Latent learning is learning without a reinforcement - so modelling fits perfectly here - and this is one of the things that I feel makes this work with Star - I received an order I put in for two more bareback pads yesterday (lost the girth from my pad in the wind and it is GONE). They are only cheapies and I would never recommend they be used for riding but my plan is to put one on Sharney with the girth done up and let star see how much fun we can have for a few days and then after a couple of days put it back on play and then and put one on Star only for a tick and build up. Now the learning done this way is incorporated into long term memory in about 24 hours (that is watching and not otherwise participating) and the original trials for latent learning (rats in mazes) worked on a 3 day turn around.
try and video it also - you would need a wide angle though or run two cameras
nice
Thanks, I'm quite pleased how it turned out in the end.
5 December 2019
Had a rather nice ride on Carlotta, despite the strong wind, the threatening wetness from above and two immediate neighbours mowing their paddocks close by.
aghh sounds like it was a good environment to see where she is at!
Absolutely! She had several good looks, but came down each time. Slightly flinchy once or twice, but worked well for me. Offered several CA's while at stop, and several PW's when she felt she needed a bit of it. Tried hard to do calm trots for me, as well as prompt stops from canter. Getting better and better with standing square or lining up upon light leg request, when one hind foot is off.
Wonderful soft stops from all gaits, especially from canter. I just have to sit up a big and start saying Aaand (whoa), and bang, she stands. She seems to have the least difficulties stopping square from canter.
wow sounds great - is canter an easy gait perhaps for her? (balance wise)
6 Dec 2019, 16:13
Yes, she has always cantered pretty easily. Calm and slowly.
9 December 2019
I had the idea that I could let Carlotta into it with the muzzle, so they can be together all the time.
Here are the 2 mat videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX86hI7L2e8&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APVD0kHO0So&feature=youtu.be
Haha, Valeta was so funny: wile I took the camera back inside, she had built a pyramide from the mat, then carefully folded it into a small parcel. Couldn't stop laughing
Ok so good, but there were times Carlotta was thinking about engaging - when that happened I would have gone to her and made a big fuss and clicked and treated and then gone back to the mat with Valeta - think about the modelling as here Carlotta, look what Valenta is doing can you do this. Here are..... this is one early on when I was experimenting with modelling - dont laugh! the haze is just too bad since that day to film
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dxyti76o926h0za/3.%20Star%20Sharney%20modelling1com.mp4?dl=0
I didn't have time to watch the vids yesterday, just sent them to you. Yup, I was so busy with Valeta that I didn't pay much attention to Carlotta. So missed her hesitant wish to engage. Will try harder next time
Your modelling video is great. I couldn't stop smiling and giggling. I hope you will put it up in the workshop. Everybody will love it!
no I doubt it LOL - yeah so you can see though in it that we have to try and look at both horses - but Sharney makes a great model
Your horses are fabulous!
hahaha - well we are up to doing up the girth now but I really want this videoed so I might need to wait - my plan is to have one done up with Sharney and have Star watch and probably the first time not even use one on him - but get him used to the idea first. maybe later in the week the wind blows some of the smoke away
Hope it will happen. Must be frustrating to want to film something and not be able to, because of the outside conditions.
Haven't put the grazing muzzle back on Carlotta. Let her into the lush paddock for 45 minutes, then took her out and to the grazed down one. Once the grass dries off, she might be able to go in for longer.
She was very good this morning. Each time we stopped, she almost immediately arched herself up into a CA. She seems to really enjoy this now.
Also offered one or two PWs, with a lot of elevation.
She can trot quite nicely by now. Still pretty slow, but regular. She did fall into a pace once, but I noticed and stopped her, so she could rearrange her brain cells and feet
sounds great with Carlotta. Oh the weather is about the same here and tomorrow about 43 so fire the fires are not back at emergency level so fingers crossed
Yukk! And yes, fingers crossed.
Played a bit with both in arena now. Valeta very keen on everything (including eating the mat), and Carlotta looked quite often and came a bit closer. So I went over and talked with her and invited her, but nope, can't do it yet. Which I expected.
Ok so dont be too worried about how much room for the invite - Carlotta can you come and join? at first a look as you ask - click treat and go back to Valeta - make every move she makes when she thinks about it the best move she can make
13 December 2019
Looks like I got the first little success with modelling (sticking tongue out). Was the second session trying it with Valeta. Like you, I called out to her "Valeta, are you watching?" when she grazed a bit away. She looked up and came over and watched me pointing my fingers at Carlotta's muzzle, who stuck her tongue out.
After 2 or 3 reps with Carlotta, pointed at Valeta's muzzle. She started to wiggle her lips, which got clicked. Then suddenly her tongue came out a teensy, weensy bit. Jackpot! And lots of praise. I explained to her that this was exactly what I wanted and stuck out my tongue as well. She scratched her head, but when I had asked Carlotta again, Valeta did it again!
Riding session was a bit sluggish, as Carlotta came fresh from the paddock where she had stuffer her face for 2 hours
But she offered me a very beautiful spanish trot at one stage.
And she seems to prefer elevated canters to trots, as she regularly goes into them when I ask for trot
hahahaha - well I guess if you want that modeled LOL - yeah I think that the canter is easier for her - we have no fresh paddocks - but I am fine with that - going through allot of beet though
Yes, I like that behaviour, so do want it modeled!
Carlotta was mainly grazing nearby, but did decide to engage towards the end. After I had taken Valeta to the paddock, I came back and walked a it with Carlotta, asking for PW. Which she did. A few steps into the direction of the mat, and quite relaxed. Of course, I had already taken the camera away....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGyJEIm8S9o&feature=youtu.be
Yep for tied up - it was good that you went to her when she looked and clicked and treated - just click and treat her looking and dont ask for anything else - go back to the mat. You could keep Valeta there and throw some treats on the mat - so right at the end it looked like you were asking for something to give a click to - I would simply click and treat her when she ever looks in the direction of the mat - if you can make it more fun at the mat - if you have more cones put them a distance away from the mat but closer to it than she was today and see what happens sorry cat typing - I got tied up
The flies were horrible, so I started to put the fly masks on. Valeta didn't care at all when I fiddled around her head to adjust it.
When I lead her back to the paddock after Silke has trimmed their feet, she protested quite vigourously that Carlotta wasn't there (yet) and rose straight to the sky on her hind legs. I told her I wasn't amused, haha.
Her mum used to do the same when she was annoyed about something. And Valeta is a lot like her. I am so looking forward to start her under saddle, but it's another 2 years before she will be 5. OK, better go and ride before it will be too hot. A very "summery" week ahead as it sounds. I am so relieved that the hay is all safely in my shed. Wouldn't have been fun to cart it with temps near 40°....
16 December 2019
Carlotta was a bit ho-hum this morning, but then decided to cooperate nicely. I still struggle to keep her on the rail in second and third gear. Must be that I am not sufficiently control my outside rein and inside leg. Or that there is anxiety creeping up to the surface. Who knows.
She gave me lovely PWs and P.Trots, as well as a PERFECT CA under saddle. Yay!
no flies are out in the humidity - we have nearly zero humidity - a couple of flies but no aussie salutes needed - no there wont be any here - we are not on the coast. No rain predicted but plenty of smoke. I think anxiety should be considered first though - have you thought just to play with her in that area? good that it worked out though. Tell me is there anything I need to know about Suzanne, I am just preparing her coaching video - nothing wrong and she has some nice intuitive things going on just wanted to make sure I dont need to mind my comments too much - also how do you pronounce Vaka (her horse)?
Yes, anxiety can be it, though it doesn't feel like it at first sight. And when I just put a bit of weight in my outside stirrup, she willingly drifts back to the rail.
Must think of how I could play with this with her.
17 December 2019
Here are the two vids I took today:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IetDe_qm6Ss&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHyTB97tAC4&feature=youtu.be
hahahaha I wish I could get down there - Ok so the first one Carlotta got allot closer - when this happens, go and engage her with the target click and treat then go back and be full of praise for Carlotta
Ok so the second one you did YEAH and you had eyes in the back of your head...yes so at 4.50 go and engage again and come back - every time she walks closer go and treat her - make it fun then go back. 7.28 was great - now when she left at 7.42 was this perhaps the influence of valeta? do they get along?
Haha, I bet that sometimes you just itch to come and work with mine when I do silly things. I bet you would do so much better!
Carlotta started to be a lot more interested in the second one indeed. It is not always easy to keep an eye on her reactions, as Valeta is so enthusiastic and taking most of my attention, but I try.
Not sure why she left at 7.42. Don't think it has to do with Valeta, as Lotta is higher in rank and it's Valeta who yields to her always. My feeling is that she just had enough for the moment and needed to go and have a little break. Might be wrong, of course.
oh I dont know about that I wanted to do an extra video this morning to explain something in Susannes coaching and I just looked at it and it needs to be redone! see if this coaching one for Susanne looks OK - I had some issues with the formatting as adobe updated their software and I did not check it all - I wont post it till susanne sees it but see if it works for you by downloading it - playing on the dropbox app seems to squash everything but downloaded it looks normal
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mf1k42tqg2khdju/Susanne_coaching1.mp4?dl=0
17 December 2019
I watched it with the dropbox and it worked fine all the way through.
Ok ta, if you are using the standard dropbox then thats what it is then - the app as windows 10 has an app for dropbox
Looking very good to me, great coaching. Susanne will love it. And I am pleased to see that she picked up my (your) suggestion for social interaction/talking a lot to her horse.
oh great - yes she was doing some fine chatting - she seemed over the moon with her post that she posted this morning
It felt like some months back when we went through all this with Carlotta
These days, she is finally becoming pretty good with it: she automatically positions her legs (mainly the front ones, but often then "corrects" herself and does the hind ones as well) before even thinking CA.
Will write about this in the course once Susanne's coaching vid will be up. yep maybe, maybe it is the German in you ladies, wanting to be perfect LOL If that's OK with you, of course.
OK yes for sure - I want her to be happy with it first given the full group sees it so I am sure she will get back to me tonight
I feel it is a learning process which allows us to graaadually understand that less is more in the beginning and how we need to become a lot quicker, so we can capture the very beginnings of the try
I am sure she will love it, Julie.
And I am equally sure that she will relax a lot and enjoy the fun of the whole process
yes you are probably right. Hopefully by the end folks will enjoy it and get something out of it so I have some evaluations to use - looks like I am getting a small waiting list but I want to go though one lot first to be sure I take account of anything that might need to be changed. have fun
Good idea. Once you are ready to start the next one, I will let the people interested know that it's open for enrolment. There are a few who couldn't do it this time for various reasons, as you remember.
18 December 2019
got the painting, thankyou it is lovely - and the feather and the other little one LOL - forgot to deposit the money will do it tomorrow morning (hate giving banks money overnight)
Glad you like it!
Haha, the other little one, you mean the colour copy? That was all I could find to wrap in around the surface, so it didn't get accidentally damaged. That was a painting for somebody in NSW who had taken my GSD Nemo, who is in the picture. Still miss him.
all good, it is done now, I dont like owing money - hahahaha about the colour copy - I was wondering if I missed something
19 December 2019
Thank you!
Busy this morning with cooking (smoked salmon platter for entree, then Beef Stroganoff for main course, then Baked pears on puff pastry, filled with chocolate balls.
2/3 through, whew, just the beef now. Got my ride in at 7:30 this morning
busy busy! well you would not want to ride here at 7.30 - already it was over 30C
Yes, was a busy day. Doing nothign right now, well almost, as I will continue with the course
Tomoz around 43°, so it will be 7 a.m. for riding. I will let the mares into the (treeless) grass paddock overnight and then into the bush paddock during the day.
yep it has been fun today
It's good to be back to lazy. But Greg told me there is more fun ahead, as 2 of his cousins have announced their visit. And Greg wants to invite them and their wives and do the usual big dinner thingy and spent the night here.
Very nice video - an excellent eye opener!
oh great! ta
20 December 2019
I noticed in a post on your page you said that Carlotta uses the PW to deactivate - this is not deactivation but rather using mastery to give her confidence to tackle what ails her - deactivation is standing and offering calming signs, yawns, even displacement behaviours - but when they offer a PW they are faking till they make it
in cases when this happens we need to support their social engagement system - I have video of Star doing this the other day if you want to see it? the camera angle does not pick up his facial expressions but it is nice to see him trying
Yes please!
Aah, OK, might be good to mention this in the course. Feel free to use my comment and then correct it
it is mentioned the crunch and PW are for mastery (repeatedly LOL) - as was my presentation to Sarah- deactivation only occurs when the horse is stressed and we need to wait - my goal is not to have the horse stressed in the first place, but if that happens we need to wait - the course from how you are following it, you are up to crunches and some of the explanations for the actual fake it till you make it - we are not focusing on deactivation as this is where Sarah and I differ - I do not agree with growing a window of tolerance because this stresses the horse and grows the grey matter
Dang, "medium" out of control bushfire 20 km east from us. 62 vehicles working on it.
the winds you have down there are not going to push that to you
No, they blow in the opposite direction. Fire not yet under control and over 70 vehicles at work. It's labelled "large" by now. Fortunately, the yesterday conditions of 44.5° plus strong winds are now gone. 20° and practically no wind at the moment.
How are things your end? it is going to get bad soon
Here is today's CA vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyCFmd9t1bk&feature=youtu.be
Sorry, camera isn't positioned very well, but it shows (more or less) what we are trying to do. I tried to apply what I saw in your course video, i.e. using the pointer to improve the CA. Lots of room for improvement, but she tried very hard, my dear girl.
22 December 2019
her core work looks good - hahaha 1.28 was timed funny - so you had the idea but asked for her to look at the stick after she stopped lifting - but can you see that her expression changed here? this is because you changed things around - can you think about whether I might be on the mark here and that is that we need to be careful that each time we ask for 'anything' we ask differently or we don't do it - so no repetitions - and I am also wondering if she needs to play between each one (but that was a nice piece of core lifting) and 2.03 hahahaha - OK so were you trying to strength her back here? lift - can you stretch while holding the lift? little at a time - yea good one at 2.28 - so dont repeat this and move onto something more interesting for her - she did seem to get a little more animated here though - it went down a little after this and I really think that anything where we are 'practicing' wont work well for her motivation wise (and also your tone changed after the 2.28 one)
Thanks for the great feedback about CA. Haha, very true. I know I did too many repetitions. Was too greedy there. Good idea to play in between. Hm, I seem to have trouble to et stretches while holding lift. You need to come down and work with her.
Yes, I can see what I did at 1.28. Bummer. Will have to figure out how to ask for stretching while she holds the lift. Gnnnn....
Usually I ask for 1 or 2 lifts, then stop. But you know how it is when the camera runs - you wanna "produce" something
oh the holding and stretching is done very slowly - in the video I tried only to get a slight hold - just take your time and even use your keep going voice as you ask for the core - yes yes yes - and then we capture the stretch before they drop off their core - so at first dont wait to see it - try and time the lift as a good lift and slight leaning towards the pointer - click and treat - the shoulder will give you a better indication as to how much out of the core she is at the time you click (in other words before the shoulder drops back down) - yea we always get greedy - just remember variety
Need to digest all this. Thanks a lot, very useful answers. Will take another one and see whether there is improvement.
Another try: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lpzm-olpdc&feature=youtu.be
the flies mum!!!!! OK so it is hard to tell with the shoulders when she is not side on to the camera, it seemed to me she was stretching forward but the shoulders were the tell here - when she went off to PW it was good to with her - PW with her and have a game. It was interesting that when she said na I want to stay here you asked a few times, rather than went and did you own thing - I still cannot shake the feeling she is not always engaged with it all. OK so at 4.30 or so you are walking and she is following but your gaze is so on her - look ahead and see what happens (we can always see video later ) I want to see what happens to eliminate your gaze on her as being the 'culprit'. Yeah finally a side on close shot LOL - I really am spoilt with the Pixio ...yes beautiful crunch - look in the same direction as she is though - but this was a lovely crunch..yes that was perfect at 5.48! now another piece for thought - when you say are you ready? what is it that she does to tell you she is?
24/12/2019, 12:24 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsHBvxA81WA&feature=youtu.be
This is the riding vid from the same day. There are some nice examples of "panther trot" (aroun d 8.something and at the end), as well as some of PW after an effort (like half-pass along the pole).
Thanks for the feedback on the ground vid. Yes, you are right, she is not always engaged. It was a lot better when we played regularly on the ground together. Maybe I should do more of it again (instead of being so focussed on riding hahahaha).
Yeah, right, I was staring at her again sigh But I am so very pleased how much her CA has improved now. Took only a year...
I had planned to wait for the spare parts for the pixio (to make the assembling easy), but looks like I have been ruined for tolerating the dot-at-the-horizon horses in normal videos now. So, next time, Pixio it will be again
About: "when you say are you ready? what is it that she does to tell you she is?" It depends! Sometimes she is ready and then goes into the CA, and sometimes she isn't and says "push off, I don't wanna"
Really, I know right away in most cases, before even asking. I should know better and listen to my guts
Anyway, wishing you a happy Christmas and a safe property and animals! Will be back soon. I will have a look at the video later
2 January 2020
Something to take your mind off for a little while: I took some more Pixio yesterday from the horses playing in the arena and doing social engagement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNCGd03DeeQ&feature=youtu.be
Carlotta came closer several times and looked a lot into our direction, but wasn't really willing to participate yet. Well, as long as I can see some progress... which is the case
Valeta was brilliant: she figured out how to straddle the pole at liberty. Must have given this some thought since last time
She also figured out some new things, like stepping into the tyre and on the pedestal. What a smart little coookie!
The old yellow clicker on the pointer died completely that day, but I managed to get it off and glued one of the red ones on. So, all good, and no need to buy another one
So good to have 8 horses here, reminds me of my former days with up to 17 horses, belonging to me! I love watching them walk around and eat and interact. That grass should be gone within a week or two at the rate they are attacking it, haha.
Means I have to keep Carlotta and Valeta in the house paddock which also has high grass, and that implies picking up the manure, i.e. painfully dragging it out of the grass. Eeek! Takes sooo long to do it. I am afraid I let out a few not very ladylike comments in the process....
I will look at it tomorrow. the non branded clickers are not as good as the branded ones so let me know if you need some more - no manure picking here for me - it is too hot and storing it just adds fuel for combustion it is better to leave it in the paddocks
the video is good, but you cant help yourself with carlotta - at the beginning you click and treat (yes) but then you want to ask her to go to the mat - walk back to the mat and make it fun - she needs to come when she wants to engage (not when you ask). It is good that you went over to her when she looked at you the second time and clicked and treated. She is not finding you playing with Valeta exciting enough at this time but look at 2.42 (shame you did not see this, but she was not to know the click was not meant for her as it was timed perfectly). Here I would have made a HUGE fuss over her, tripple or even more clicks and treats heaps of scratches - anything to really mark that moment - rather than treat it the same as you did the moment before - does this make sense? I am not sure what caused her to go away then but it feels to me that she needed more reinforcement - she wanted to be really sure she did the right thing - and I feel that if you had the time over again you could make this a HUGE moment for her. See at 4.45 when you kicked the ball? this woke her up - I was only saying to myself as I was watching whether we need more energy here to motivate her....what does she love to do? here at 5.13 as well but after you went to her Valeta caused her to go away - so this is the message she is getting each time I think also - is Valeta the dominant one here? Can we amuse her when you go to Carlotta (a bucket so you can drop treats in perhaps?) See at 7.23 she wanted to engage with you but I don't know what happened after that and the next time I see her she seems to be in a different position. Valeta is getting good on the mat LOL - so maybe we need to control Valeta when she is following you to Carlotta and also find something more exciting for Carlotta?
4 January 2020
Now for the video: Finally got to watch it. Yes, I can feel your pain about how I handled it from 2:42. She was willing to engage and all I did was click and briefly praise her. You are right, big fuss it should have been! So sad when she gave up and turned away
Yes, same at 7:23. How could I miss all those great opportunities. Sure, I did acknowledge most of them (when I noticed them), but definitely not enough and it frustrated Carlotta.
Valeta is not the dominant one, as Carlotta drives her away and is the "boss", but I have the feeling that it annoys her when I do things with Valeta and she plays the second violin only, so to speak. Just my gut feeling.
Yes, I could try the bucket thing, but that would need to be a lot of treats, as Valeta clearly wants to be with me all the time, and this gets on Carlotta's nerves.
As Carlotta isn't overly interested in what Valeta does with the mat, maybe I should stop this, at least for a while, and have Carlotta in the arena on her own again and play with her.
Unfortunately, she is not overly interested in playing. Yes, she enjoys PW, but not as enthusiastically as other horses do. I have the feeling that she is very proud of offering it to me when ridden, but when it comes to playing on the ground, it is only occasionally interesting. Same for other things. I can't think of anything that really thrills her to bits and which she loves doing.
Apart from quiet things, like standing close to me, put her muzzle into my hand or lick my hand. And when I do Bladder Meridian work with her as well.
This morning, after the ride, when I asked her for a couple of CA's, first she cheated a bit, so I asked again, saying exexex to try to extent it a bit. And at the third try, she did a beautiful one. I jubileed and praised her, and she started to nicker softly.
If you have any idea what could be exciting for Carlotta, I would be glad to hear it. She seems to love levades, but I don't want to overdo it with those. Maybe play with the tyre and the pedestal?
Maybe, I should just go back to more ground fun. When we did a lot of it in the past, she seemed to like it (most of the time).
Having Valeta in the arena at the same time is demanding, as she absorbs most of my attention with her fun stuff and interaction, and poor Carlotta is left out. I think we have to change this.
Talking about coaching videos for the course. Do you want to use any of my recent ones for it or should I make one or two new ones? And what would you like to talk about for our case? CA? PW? Or maybe even PW under saddle?
She is doing quite nice CA's under saddle now. She usually starts with a fake one (just with the neck, so to speak), but she I say "lift", she lifts her back as well. That is one of the rare times where she gets treats when ridden now. I just want to mark such great moments.
4 Jan 2020, 13:57
hahahaha - yes well I am not up for a drive down to vic LOL - 44 at the moment and it is hard - we have been in the same danger for 6 weeks - it has not changed - the containment is holding at the moment ...mmm OK let me think of some strategies then as if Carlotta is the boss and she is not showing it, this means you are not a resource at the moment she wants to guard - now dont feel bad about this - I think there is something else happening - but need to think on it...this then may give you some ideas as to what you can offer her for play - I think a new crunch one would be good for the workshop - keep it short LOL be back when it is cooler
Took 3 little vids (with always a play break in between). Not as good as I might have wished, but I think there could be some stuff worth commenting in there. I am sending you all three, so you can decide which one is the most appropriate (or put them together, if you prefer).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UhvxRabLKg&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62HMWAaNm0Y&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCKq2Jw2Ni8&feature=youtu.be
5 Jan 2020, 03:27
with the first one and Carlotta - she is using her neck allot and her hind legs are tucked under - she actually looks quite reactionary in SATS and her back legs in particular react to the touch rather than purposefully move on our suggestion. I am a little perplexed with her as she was showing allot of calming signs - and she also has gone back to using her neck (and you are clicking for it) now she looked like she had too much in her mouth or she has a tooth issue - if she had too much in her mouth then she held onto the food and this is an indicator of stress - if there is an issue in her mouth unless you have changed your mind now and will get an equine dental vet unfortunately until it is very obvious a standard equine 'dentist' cannot pick it up as they cannot look into the mouth properly unless sedation. So just tuck it into your mind and watch out for this happening again. The yawning then was good, but there should have been no need for it given what was being done. She then let out a good one from behind - this should not be needed with what was just happening. I feel there was only one little spark from her in the whole clip and that was when the click registered - may of the clicks did not register with her. So thinking about what I see on the other videos and the fact that she is the one more likely to voice her opinion, I think maybe doing the modelling is not working for her and may be confusing her. We have to look at the value to the horse- so we can see that Valeta finds these modelling lessons more valuable - she finds your time and attention more valuable. Carlotta does not and in this circumstance, when competing for your time and attention and training, she is prepared to say - it is not worth it for me - Valeta you can have it. So she is not learning anything because she is not really attentive.
So I think yes the modelling is not working for her - I think you need to experiment with the things you suggested yesterday - I am interested in what changed with her when you said yesterday - "This morning, after the ride, when I asked her for a couple of CA's, first she cheated a bit, so I asked again, saying exexex to try to extent it a bit. And at the third try, she did a beautiful one. I jubileed and praised her, and she started to nicker soft"...the levardes are something that can be used as an extra incentive - so maybe throw a couple in
why is your pointer not extended? She is allot more 'alive' in this second video. The second attempt correction was good but she should not be using her neck anymore - what seems to be happening is that she is going back and then trying to go up and this is the reason that she is using the neck, so there is no raising of the cervical vertebrae. In this one at 1.28 your correction was more forward thinking so this is why she went off balance but she really tried there. That hind leg should not be doing this in SATS but also strange that she felt the need to move it the way she did when you asked for a crunch. OK I think I know when you clicked next LOL at 2.00 you are training it hahahahahaha - see she is a horse who seems to love to lift her legs or levade as you say or stretch - even her PW is dainty and stretchy rather than awkward and 'ugly' so you need to think about what she is doing when you click as these kinds of things are her go to moves (so yes the pedestal would be helpful for her motivation). You need to change the way you are asking for the lifting of the core - your hand is well below where we want the lift from and nearly at the lumbar spine and you are facing inwards rather than in her same direction - this means that you are missing the fact that she is not lifting at the shoulders. and also you are back into the habit of sweeping back with your hand towards her tail when you ask and this means for her (as she loves to take her weight back) that she forgets to use her shoulders . So here is my thought - this one may be good if we can show how to fix this - so go to the pedestal and her front feet are on it, so this means the elevation is there for her already - ask for the activation but only a little, extend the pointer and watch the shoulders - when you see the shoulders lift a little or any idea that there is muscle activation there click and treat - just a couple and see if you can set the camera up to shoot it straight onto the shoulders- you are going to remain still so it should be fine to do. You want to stand at her shoulder and your cue for lift is going to be your body language (shoulders - even if you are on the other side of her so the camera, carlotta and then you in order of the vision - if you need to face her to see the shoulders thats fine - I will look at the third one
yeah na the second one, might be the go - the third one is more into bending of the hocks (which we do not want to encourage at the standstill) and again this is not meant by you I know but she loves to elevate herself and unfortunately she is bending, and then using the lumbar (for the most) to lift - then the lift is coming towards the cervical spine but as the last thing to happen rather than the actual first. I would love to see you try the lift (shoulders) on the pedestal - I can video this for you if you need it. So what was going on in the first video? her demeanour was very different in that as compared to the other two?
5 Jan 2020, 10:19
I can try again, I know they are not ideal. But that gives you room for pointing out what can be improved
Dunno, she was kinda grumpy and sulking that I took her out a second time that day, I suppose. She is not in a very good mood at the moment, maybe because she doesn't like all those strange horses on her territory? She will be in for a surprise, when she has to go into that big herd for 2 months soon...
Maybe my fault what she did in the third video. I think she was following my hand far back on her lumbar area/croup and leaned back against it? She certainly thought she was doing what I asked for. Yes please, video it for me.
I can practice stepping on the pedestal and then see whether she can do a lift. Might take a bit of time.
5 Jan 2020, 17:47
Tried to take another video of the CA for you. Uploading right now. She enjoyed playing a bit in between with PW and then offered me even a panther trot. Looked great. Of course, the camera wasn't on...
Then I remembered that you are interested in trying CA on the pedestal, so we worked on putting her front legs on (took a vid), and then I asked for CA, but she got all confused and rocked back and forth. Will need to practice this some more, sorry.
I dont think she was confused because if you look at the CA videos this is what you are now reinforcing for rocking back - the forwards is extinction as she is not getting a click for it - frustration and confusion - it is the same thing - or are you saying she was confused about putting her front legs on? the only reason I suggested the pedestal is that you said she loves it (so a normal thing is front legs on the pedestal). shame about the early stuff LOL
I meant she might be confused because I was in a different position. Mea culpa for reinforcing the wrong thing....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF_QTNXhv94&feature=youtu.be https://studio.youtube.com/video/AxL6VqEZcBk/edit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8rubxF57V4&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDih4D1E_j0&feature=youtu.be
6 Jan 2020, 03:28
in your first one, that click was a bit late LOL - she moved her foot nicely and she expected a click and her expression showed this (which is good). OK so this one is not a good one, unless it is a demonstration of no autonomy LOL (and blending) - so she is not though flush to the camera and I can see you are trying hard for her to get her neck out but your pointer is far to short for it to be of value - she cannot 'look' at it when it is short and close to your body as it means turning her head towards you after she begins to use her neck. We need her head flush first between her shoulders and lifting at the shoulders - you are still watching her spine. I would not be clicking when she reacts with her back leg - the second was not a reaction I can see that she wanted a scratch - so I would have scratched her not clicked her LOL. I am not sure what happened at 2.10 you seem to want her to turn her head towards you maybe?......I think it is better to get the core work done by lifting at the base of the cervical vertebrae first - the head turning is AFTER they are in activation mode (with no neck). I am a little confused with allot of the clicks after this though. As we need to restart and not practice using her neck you had a great opportunity just after you said ready at 2.44 this is when I would have clicked and slowly build this back up but when you clicked it was fine - and I think you knew it also. I dont recall her being so willing in many attempts like this one though also
cant access the second link. The third one: I think they are in the right direction, cant see what is really happening in the first few - but think about the clicking you are doing - you seem to be clicking more and more and I think it is becoming a habit . The one at 1.00 was boarding on clicking for the neck but this could have been 'fixed' by asking her to look at an EXTENDED pointer, so dont try and get her to turn her head at the moment until the neck is out. that was a better use of the pointer at 1.14. Yes good click at 1.28. Yes the next one, I think she was trying and it was not something caught in a tooth?
so pretty good focus working on getting her to step onto the pedestal - there goes that hind leg again at 3.50...pause at 3.58 - is this just the camera angle or maybe she is dirty? but it looks to me that her rump muscles are fully 'loose' here...I see this sometimes when the wrong muscles are being used for stabilising - not sure but the way she is holding herself here feels strange to me. When she moved back it almost looked like she was using her stifle for balance for a sec....OK so she knows she can activate on the pedestal so same deal here we cant click for the neck - as she did this one herself smile and say a wonderful try but lets go smaller and then ask . I cant really tell what you were clicking for as you were standing right at her shoulder LOL
fingers crossed Star will co-operate this morning and I can video him on it - we may get a dirty willy in the camera (I must clean it), but I will try and aim for effort so he has to focus rather than 'fall asleep' hahahaha
6 Jan 2020, 11:00
I found some old videos of them using the pedestal - we actually got a sprinkle of rain this morning for about an hour - probably only a couple of mils but the camera could not go out in it - now there is too much smoke around
so if you want to see the old ones let me know
Sounds like a made a mess of it. sigh Will really have to concentrate more on the things I should do! Might give it a bit of a break for now, as I feel somehow pretty discouraged that I went back to bad habits again.
Yes please, if you can send me the link to an old pedestal video.
Good to hear that you got at least a little bit of rain. Checked the national rainfall map, but doesn't seem to be much in your area.
Bust be horrible with the smoke. We have some from the Gippsland fires, but not too bad at the moment. Just all grey and overcast and a bit of smell.
Will go into town early arvo and work a bit with Wotan and the girls. Seems they have just started with riding lessons too. I hope that won't ditract their interest from Wotan and Savannah too much. Thought about doing some poolnoodle fun and maybe some leading and beginnings of laterals (shoulder-in in hand). And maybe also the seasaw (I have a small one).
Also have to go through all our things and see what can go to bushfire victims, like spare horsie and household stuff. We tried to make a donation through Rotarians, then Red Cross, but they refused to accept bank transfers. Do they have to be that difficult when you want to give them money?!
Will try to donate to the organisation that sends trucks loads of hay to Gippsland and NSW. That sounds like an excellent initiative.
dont be disheartened, but you have fallen into some habits LOL and you are relying on the click a little - but we all do it and trhats why videos are great because we can catch them before they develop further. I am not much of a fan of the seasaw but I have never seen one done well where the horse is actually balanced well rather than relying on the wrong muscles to keep them there - also anything where a horse does not walk on without a lead raises a ? in my mind as to whether it is something good for the horse or just the human.
Will see today or tomorrow what happens without lead rope. I put it on yesterday, because it had been years since we last did it. Just to give her an idea basically. You saw that I didn't put "pressure" on her, just held her hand.
it is not something they forget - we did use the pedestal this morning and they both just go for it - but I know that if Sharney does not make a B line for it when we are in that area she is not feeling the best
yea I did see that there was no pressure but I just find it interesting that she prefers to go side to side
Yes indeed. My other horses very quickly enjoyed lining up at the short side and fairly quickly went up with all four legs. Keldan even with a rider.
I never did much with Carlotta with it, which might be the reason that she is at the early stage
Tues 10:33
So here is one of the earlier ones when I began experimenting with 'carrot' stretches as well as crunches on it - will try and video tomorrow
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xtnpv9g57eek9w2/pedestal%20comp.mp4?dl=0
Very nice and creative, Julie. Star shows some of the behaviours Carlotta did. What a beautiful crunch at 2:04!
Might be a bit more difficult for Carlotta on the higher pedestal. Maybe I should build a flat one as well for various games. A lot less smoke today, so we can do outdoor things again.
the higher it is the better it is for them but also horses love the height, It would not usually be in their nature to enjoy something low to the ground.
10 January 2020
Nice ride this morning with a very cooperative Carlotta. When back to MB, she stopped dead and said she just couldn't go there. I let her stand for what felt like ages to see whether she would deactivate, but it didn't happen, so took her to arena and pedestal again to dismount. No dangling lead rope this time, but the sliding door was rattling a bit. Maybe there was no "real" reason, but just some hidden fear cooking up. Who knows.
We did a little bit of CA, with the pointer in use as you suggested in your wonderful short video in the course.
Worked really well. Now, I'll have to repeat it in front of the camera...
My troup from Chris is doing a great job, eating all that long grass. Hopefully in another week or so they will be finished and can go home, together with Carlotta and Valeta.
Oh, and when she did an extra-wonderful CA, I just praised her repeatedly and enthusiastically, like you showed us (good jooob, Carlotta, wonderfuly, good jooob etc.). She looked at me, then turned her head towards me and started licking my arm and hand.
Felt very good inside.
hahahaha - no rain for at least another week here. Carlotta needs to have the confidence to go through a deactivation - can I suggest that you dismount and then use the bladder meridian technique - helping her gain the confidence to show you that she can let down - I fear she knows you will pull her up and take her somewhere else and then the mind becomes the new 'job' - the first time I tried this it took over 30 mins I know it is a long time but it then became very easy
That sounds a very good suggestion. Will try next time. Tomorrow I should have time to wait it out, as there is no gardener or cleaning lady or whatever turning up and distracting us.
I did the bladder meridian technique from the saddle. Yes, I think you are right - she knows that I will let her go to the arena after a while, so time to change strategies.
Would this be good for the mat as well? I.e. stand at the distance she is comfy with and let her deactivate there?
Look at that: http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDR023.loop.shtml
just hang in there for a good deactivation and then go ahead and go somewhere else - she has to activate before we can get a deactivation. I have not seen that there is any activation at the mat she just is not interested
17 January 2020
wish I could have added another day on when I see Alice Cooper but could not do it with the flights that were left (not that hub would have been happy me spending another day away - as it is he has to not work for 2 days because of the flights that were available)
Hahaha, you read my mind! I was going to suggest you come and visit me for a few days
Lovely cool weather here (18° today). I have decided to keep Chris' lot for another week, as there still is a lot of grass. One of the young mares was very skinny (belongs to our friend Amber). It's a Peruvian Paso and they can't figure out what the problem is. She seems to be starting to put on a little big of weight now. She is the younger sister of Bella which I eyeballed recently.
Have thought about a strategie to get Carlotta to become interested in the mat and overcome old worries about it.
I have placed it in the center of the arena, close to the tyre, and just rode around like I normally do. Each time, she looked at it, I praised her. At one stage, I tried to stop at a spot, approx. 5 m from the mat, and she couldn't stop, so I does still worry her. Continued to work a bit, then gave stop cue at the same distance, and she stopped softly and happily. CT and goody! And lots of goooood job!
Once unsaddled, I took her back into the arena and let her loose. Suggested we do a bit of PW, which she did happily. I still rewarded each look into the direction of the mat with praise. Then she stopped and we softly chatted a bit. I pointed with the pointer, she did a CA, then suddenly but very slow-motion, went up into a levade or rather pesade. I laughed and said: Oh, that's what you want to do. Fine! She offered a few more and looked proud and happy.
Then I invited her (doing PW myself) to walk towards the mat, and she did a few steps, then stopped. I gave her scritchies and friendly talks, then walked to the mat and sat down on it. She started grazing nearby, then looked at me. I put a handful of lucerne chaff on the mat. She looked, then took a few steps forward and ate the chaff. We ended on that.
Do you think this is a valuable approach? I had in mind to continue leaving the mat in the arena, just as part of it, until she finds it normal.
yeah no way we could risk me being away other than overnight as fires will still be burning. Yes still sprinkling but a solid sprinkle so thats good. As long as she feels she still has autonomy under saddle it may be OK. it is good she ate some food on it, I would give that a go for a bit, as long as she is not worried - see we cant use habituation as there is anxiety, we can counter condition but she would have to do something for it, and it is also a little like overshaddowing, but I only like to overshaddow when what creates anxiety is necessary (as the mat is not necessary if we are not careful we will strengthen the anxiety). I was going to suggest asking for a small step on a small mat like the surefoot pads and then put them in a larger square etc like I did with the cones
you cant leave it in the arena if she is under pressure, as she cannot habituate to something that creates fear
Yes, I understand that you can't stay away from home with this situation. But glad you can go and see Alice Cooper.
Hmmmm.... yes, I can bring in the small pad in, but they are quite high, so maybe she will find that difficult. I can buy some thinner foam and work with that, if you think this is useful. Somehow I don't have the feeling that the small ones will help her with the mat, but I can be wrong, of course. All this is a bit difficult to work out. When I started riding her in the arena yesterday, I had the reins on her withers for the warmup, as usual, so she could go where she wanted. She walked along with very relaxed poll, but didn't meander through the arena, as she usually does, but instead stayed on the rail.
Then I could use my usual light cues, once I had picked up contact, and she performed normally, that's when I tried to walk a bit closer and stop. A bit later, I suggested we do a figure of 8 around the mat and the pedestal. She wasn't completely comfy with this, but did it willingly with loose reins. She preferred the enlargeing the circle (shoulder-in) to travers. I only did once circle, then went back to the rail.
Will try to get next session filmed, so you can give your opinion. But, bearing in mind what you said above, it's not such a good idea after all, and I should just give it a miss.
After all, if I can't work with the mat with her, it's not a disaster. There are enough other things we can do.
17 Jan 2020, 13:19
yeah I feel that the mat is worrying her - I cant remember but have we tried CAT with the mat - but use it as BAT as if the mat were a horse float?
yes it was good that Kaye said she wanted to go as the tickets in Sydney were not that good and at the time they were released I assumed that feb would be too hard with the usual weather and that I had to travel to Sydney which meant overnight in any event - when we looked at the ones in vic there were good seats (as the rod laver arena has the two levels and there were OK ones on the second level) - I thought it will take longer to drive to Sydney than to fly to melbourne - so thought overnight will be fine (I hope)
Yes, she hides it, but I think you are right, the mat still worries her. sigh No, we haven't tried CAT with it. What is BAT?
BAT was an invention from someone who was initially on the list when JRR was teaching me CAT - I dont like BAT because of the issues that can arise if the horse thinks he or she needs to go with the handler - so I like to use it without a lead. Walk next to her towards the mat stop before the threshold wait to deactivate and then turn around and walk with her away from it, wait 10 seconds, see if we can approach again - just a couple of trials and leave it and do not be greedy
18 Jan 2020
Might give it a try from time to tim
This morning's session was so much fun. It was one with a lot of autonomy for Carlotta (without the mat - have skipped that). She walked into the arena all keen, did her warmup and went straight into proud posture when I picked up the reins. Did some lovely laterals, then I asked for a little trot, but she decided it was Power Canter, followed by Panther Trot (not sure how to call this one). She offered CA's, each time we stopped, then back into the elevated gaits without me asking. I had to keep praising her almost all the time!
After about 8 minutes, she went into a beautiful Panther Trot again, so I ended the session on this. Walked towards tying area, but when she was about to go under the roof, she suddenly stopped and said she couldn't. So I just waited, and she deactivated very quickly, then purposefully turned around and walked back to the pedestal in the arena and lined up there.
On the way back to the paddock, she started Panther walking again and I squealed with delight. Then I did a bit of SATS with Valeta, while Carlotta stayed nearby (very unusual!) and stuck out her tongue from time to time, so she could participate, haha. They got clicks and treats alternately and suddenly Valeta stuck out her tongue a bit. Was the first time she really did this, after only moving her lower jaw, then opening her mouth in a chewing motion for quite some time. So big praise and I let them out on the grassy part. I know you think it's funny, but I just love that, and it's always a big success with visitors
I have noticed a shift in Carlotta's attitude since 1 or 2 days now. She looks at me a lot more, is happy to stand and await me, then wraps her head around me or licks my hand, or gives me gentle nudges. It feels like she is "with me" again now. Maybe she feels that I am trying very hard to find and apply what makes her happy?
we got a bit of rain, no not enough to fill the dam - we would need hundreds and hundreds of mils, we probably got about 10. It might be enough to kick the grass on but without follow up rain it wont do anything except be a pain. It sounds great with Carlotta, she maybe coming more into being able to have the confidence to trust herself or that you are listening - it is certainly possible I hoped there would be more rain for you today and the following days.
20 Jan 2020, 12:15
Let me tell you a little story from around here
The other day, Chris brought in her young Morgan stallion for a first ride. She had sat on him previously once and asked for 1 or 2 steps, and he was calm and cooperative, so this time, she wanted to work towars the next level.
Romeo did a wonderful job and was surprisingly cool bananas about it all. But at one stage, I couldn't hold my tongue and suggested Chris give him a bit of time to just stand there and process (deactivate). She didn't take my suggestion, but things were fine, he worked through everything with kindness and willingness.
Being the stubborn person I am, I addressed the matter again afterwards, how much horse-friendlier it would be to give him a bit of autonomy. Of course, it didn't work (remember how long it took me to get to the stage where I was open for this approach, haha). Chris pointed out that she was well aware when he felt pressure, but had the feeling that he could handle it. She was right, he could, but still....
As you know, she is very experienced and has impeccable releases, so why should she listen to her less expert friend!
Oh Julie, you have completely ruined me for "normal" horse training! Hahahaha.
Yesterday, Amber came over and played a bit with her PP filly Luna. I offered to take photos and took about 100 of them.
It was remarkable to which extent it made me cringe to watch a (very kind with her horses and also open to do some "alternative", a bit spiritual things with her horses) conventional person interact with her young horse. OK, she took into consideration that Luna was puzzled and distracted as this was her first time away from the herd and in my arena which was unknown to her. She settled down very nicely and tried very hard to find out what Amber wanted from her. But each time I saw the pressure and the "dominant" guidance, it was so incredibly difficult to shut up and not react!!!!
Wouldn't have been any good to say something, she just wouldn't have understood, I bet. But believe me, I itched very strongly to put in my 2 cents
no no more rain. LOL you are funny, I think it can always happen for everyone eventually but sometimes it just takes that 'something' to happen. I feel that your relationship with Carlotta is a hugely different one now but you had to go through it to believe it and it was when that 'something' was 'not' happening that you thought well try and see what happens
Yes, same feeling here. She still is not, and maybe never will, be the outgoing, open person Valeta has been from the beginning, but it is not surprising with her dad's baggage, so I will take her the way she is and be grateful for small signs of affection from her part. She looks at me much more often now and whinnies to me, but still is not coming towards me or only just a little bit. We share quiet, tender moments together, but she soon has enough and walks away. I am not taking it personally
On the other hand, I feel a very different flow between us now, so all is good. And she is so incredibly kind and willing with me when I ride her. And so proud to show off what she can do. It feels like a great togetherness and partnership.
Funny that it shows so much more when I ride her than on the ground. But the other day, when we did that short liberty session together, it was there too, and she wanted to do some things, like the PW and the Pesades, but was very careful to remain polite and offer things slowly and in a controlled way. Difficult to describe, but the feeling was very strong. She is so much MY horse really!
yep I hear you
21 January 2020
Thought I owe Carlotta an apology, as I was a bit tensed up for the photo session. Greg is never available for very long, looses interest after 5 minutes, so I have to pack the maximum into those sessions
So, today, we merely worked on doing things at the walk and stop, like stopping without reins, arrangeing her feet, softening her poll, standing square and walking off with head in a good position. She worked with me and seemed to enjoy it so much that she spontaneously offered a beautiful CA, then PW. We ended the session after 10 minutes. Once unsaddled, I stood at her left side and give her some wither scratches and she crunched beautifully again. She must really like these and feel empowered by them now.
photo session? was there something planned? that's great about how she is activating her core. Ok so you are the first person I know who 'wants' to participate in a medical study LOL - hope they dont keep you long
Tues 17:13
Doesn't she look soooo lovely now? So proud of her.
I thought it was time to do something "social" to help scientific research. So I agreed to participate.
hahahaha - well good on you - not for me as there are too many rules - where are the pics? Oh thank you, that would be lovely, Julie. I don't know how to do it, indeed.
I just wanted some photos taken.
it is fine, just send me the raw footage and then I can take snaps - you just have to tell me the time count
http://www.lemis.com/yvonne/photos/Photos.php?size=2&dirdate=20200120
OK will try now but probably internet it too slow at this time
panther walk 1 and 2 she looks proud - she is worried at backing 2 you just copy and past the raw video to me on dropbox
She must have seen something at backing 2. The horses were running around in the paddock. But look at her in backing 5!
She is still leaning inward in canter. Will take more time to remedy that...
yeah but her eyes are closed - in a few of the pics I see this
I think she felt my tension and wasn't very happy about it.
sorry missed the 'nearly' closed maybe you cannot see her from where you are stitting LOL
Will try to figure the pasting into dropbox tomorrow. Bahahaha just load the video onto the computer and copy and paste into dropbox What is the link to the dropbox again? Have lost it. use this one https://www.dropbox.com/sh/yk3xtjt9jklq78w/AADzg0zVj_i4ExBkmhcMXViOa?dl=0
24 January 2020
A quickie, before I go over to Chris to film the long sword clinic (the horsie part at least). Hadn't ridden for 2 days, because of the strong wind, but did a few minutes of playing with Carlotta. She walked quite happily towards the mat and ate the chaff from it. This morning, when we played a bit after the ride, she walked towards it very purposefully, ate the chaff and stood very close to me (who was sitting on the mat passively). Then approached one more step and pawed the mat twice. All her decision
great!
Ride was great: she is getting the hang of putting herself in a better frame more and more easily. Lots of lovely PWs, a couple of CAs, and then again that very elevated Power Trot with thrown legs. Boy, that lifty you up!!!!
I am copying you more and more on the very abundant verbal praise, and Carlotta seems to love it. Her ears play vividly and her neck arches!
Have done a little bit of ground playing today with the mat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgqCU_MoFxg&feature=youtu.be
It feels like Carlotta is much more interested in the mat now and more relaxed. Maybe time to spread it out?
I cannot let her loose at the moment, as the gardener has sprayed the weeds in the arena. But I am looking forward to see how she will react once at liberty. spread it out = unfold it
25 January 2020
In case you want to check today's riding vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PzbNovIslU&feature=youtu.be
She was pretty tense at the beginning and also a bit further into it. Couldn't stop at one stage. And at the beginning, she couldn't do the task well known by her to go out of arena a few steps, then stop, then back into it again. She picks changes and vibes up so quickly!
I was more relaxed today than last time, but distracted by Greg at times, and Lotta acknowledged this right away.
Something interesting which we managed to catch in this video. From about 9:50 onwards and repeated several times: each time she goes into her power trot, she actually does trot. The only time she does it reliably, apart from going over ground poles, where she also trots. I would be interested what you think about this.
I hope I will be able - in some distant future - to use it for developping passage and piaffe. Quite difficult to teach her trot, as she usually gaits.
there are a couple of moments where you could have remained there and waited for her to deactivate rather than ask her to do things in the first couple of minutes - also the first approach was SEEKING so no food let her find her way - when she was pawing she was doing it for a click and treat that is fine, but dont disappoint her and not click. Oh that head in the canter LOL where is your pointer. She is very nervous still each time you were on the mat or off it she was very worried yes it should be opened, but I suspect that it will worry her still - she needs to SEEK and learn for herself but also she needs to learn to control with mastery so remember to ask for a crunch etc. remember to give her time to deactivate.
I will get back to you tomorrow I got up to 7.50 of the riding one but for some reason my monitor is playing up big time - if it is not one thing it is another, so puter is being turned off, I will worry about it tomorrow
No worries Julie. Thank you in the meantime
so I thought it looked nice and it was nice to see a 'normal' gait LOL - she seemed to actually hold her body better after this also (around 11.16 I was thinking). So I am not sure as I have no knowledge of the gait of the Paso but know they can trot. it looks like she tries to bunny hop as well so maybe as she was unable to achieve this, it threw her laterals out? or even that as her PW was in there as well at times this helps take the laterals out of the gait? thought this might be of interest - the course can be downloaded
Hahaha, yep, she can be very creative even with canter! But at least, she can canter.
There are lots of gaited horses that can't trot at all, they pace instead. This can be tricky to sort out too.
Yes, definitely the PW helps with working towards gait. I have the feeling that she really enjoys the fancy gaits. Today, when I asked for a simple slow trot, she went into a few steps of elevated canter, then fell into the power trot. It is very "uplifting", but my education from very young days is still working and I can sit it pretty well.
She repeated this several times, so felt like she is working on something new and finds it fascinating. When she added a few steps of Panther Trot at the end, we ended the sessions on it with lots of praise.
I just love her creativity! I am beginning to think that we are make real progress here with working on diagonals.
yep it is great she can offer different things
Who knows where this will lead us?! I would never have thought that something like this could happen to us. Thank you so much, Julie!
27 January 2020
aghh it is all you!
C'mon, we both know that you have a very important part in it!
hahaha na it is all you. Hay truck here? no there is plenty of hay at the produce stores - we dont use hay in any event
Not much we can do outside. I went over to Chris to do a short ride with Carlotta. The circumstances weren't exactly ideal: horses whinnying from all over the place, especially Valeta called out to her friend which at home she doesn't do much. A stallion in one of the small yards near the indoor arena, and in the other one (just at the other side of the arena wall) was a mare who had foaled the day before and still was extremely protective about her filly. Poor Carlotta was quite overwhelmed by the situation. I explained to her why Sidi had to stay in that stall with her filly and we had to work around it.
Took her for a walk around the arena, making sure to keep enough distance to the mare and foal. Difficult, as the arena is very small already. She knows this arena, having been in there several times before, but wasn't comfortable about it. So we just wandered to all the spots she found suspicious and approached them from both sides. Then I saddled her and mounted.
Let her just stand and try to deactivate. Took a few minutes, but then she signalled that she wanted to start walking a bit. The broad stretch of sunlight on one sided made her suspicious, and so did some other things, so I basically let her decide where she wanted to go. In the end, she had simmered down considerably, so I dismounted and gave her a bit of Bladder Meridian touch. Then took her back with the others. Funnily enough, when she joined them, she did another Passage, but a lot less pronounced this time. Can't go back and do anything with her tomorrow, as it will be over 40° again and I have to help clear out our fish pond early morning. The plants have completely taken over and the poor goldfish can hardly move anymore. A lady from next village needs plants for her new pond, so great opportunity to thin them out.
28 January 2020
it is good you demonstrated to her that she can be safe in new areas so good on you! - yeah we are ready for the heat from tomorrow - I hope that will be the end of it. Had a bad day today but may be because I see the psych tomorrow
Good you managed to get over the day. Yay for seeing him tomoz! Good luck for some help and strategies!
3 February 2020
Had 2 liberty sessions, as I promised myself to be patient and let her figure things out. She did some nice deactivations and followed me around a lot and played a bit. Still pretty distracted, as the other horses and especially Valeta are calling her a lot.
We looked at a poolnoodle (on the ground) and she went into seeking mode a few times. Then two small pads which she also acknowledged after a while.
I'm itching to ride her, but feel she just needs a bit more time. Chris' new horse, Foo, is in the yard near the arena and is very interested in what a are doing. Of course he gets some hands full of lucerne chaff as well
sounds like a good plan
4 February 2020
hahahaha I did not know that Sarah took my videos down - she must really hate me LOL
She is a true and utter idiot! I have no respect for her.
oh she just has a high sense of her own importance but it does not make sense to me that she decided to take them down. That's her choice of course ...but again all that work I did for nothing!
Well, it is annoying, but I feel that it helped you on your path and allowed you to offer so many useful things to your students!
Will go over to Chris now and see what Carlotta thinks of a little ride, then come back to your course.
yes this is true for sure, even though I had been doing this before she ever bothered to reply to any of my messages. But it was firmly cemented with her help for sure. I am just finishing off the next video from Susanne. I had hoped to capture a how to do by Star but he just wont have any of it at the moment but that is fine, as I have other options. Finally some cool weather - the humidity the last 10 days has been knocking us all around - horses been sweating like crazy every day and I would love to open their pores but I cannot spare the water - but some decent rain we hope by th end of the week is coming
Yes, much needed! We are just coming out of the cold change (12° yesterday morning!!!) and back towards the high 20s and low 30s now, it seems. Fortunately, it's now the last month of summer, so things should improve soon.
Looking forward to your new coaching vid(s). I might not do much filming over the next few weeks, but as soon as horses are back...
Let me know if there is something special I should film for the course and possible coaching.
Have you seen the 2 vids of Valeta on my Timeline? She is such a cutie! Carlotta stood nearby and watched, but decided not to come and interact in the end. But it's a big positive change already, the way it is.
last month of summer usually is the worst but I suspect we are done ..fingers crossed though. I am waiting on Kayce for the webinar so that will be after this video - when you are ready do a coaching video for panther walk, but leave it (I know you have to anyway) till you see suzannes, - we want the core to be activated in the panther walk. But there are some good tries. I was tied up this morning to finish authoring it - tomorrow I have to get back to the GP so fingers crossed it will be finished bny thursday at the latest - unless I can stay awake in the afternoons hahahaha
and yep Valeta is lovely
4 Feb 2020
Have decided to try a little ride with Carlotta today. She needed lots of deactivations, already on the way from paddock to arena. Here is the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhKcBJsK8hY&feature=youtu.be
I very much understand if you can't be bothered watching it - it is very dark and I had the wrong lens (no pixio), it's only for documentation purposes. It was like watching paint dry, but I let her decide for how long she wanted to stand, then where she wanted to go. Only towards the end, I started to steer a little bit and added a few easy little tasks.
Also made a short groundwork/-play vid; it's still uploading. She wanted to engage, a bit hesitantly at times, but repeatedly. Not in the mood for PW, but she did a few lovely (as it felt) CAs.
I watched the first 5 mins, internet has to get back to streaming so I will watch the rest when it can stream
Sorry for the lousy quality, it was a spontaneous decision. Will be better planned next time.
I hope I did things right with her. Please let me know your thoughts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GumzG2sEoAY&feature=youtu.be Dang, it's even darker than the first one.
I tried to go back to Square One and clicked her for touching the poolnoodle with her front legs, which she eventually agreed to do
one of the things with deactivating is that it is when a horse is feeling themselves inside and they are leveling back to homeostasis - from what I can see allot of the time Carlotta was actually taking her mind elsewhere and looking at what was happening outside and she is stopping back at the same place each time - I think because it is safer for her but she is not developing resilience or learning to bring herself back to homeostasis but rather I feel there is an avoidance there - just my thoughts and I could be wrong. I would have got off her well before 19 mins though and made something fun for her
5 February 2020
at .46 think about what you are clicking for....I feel before this she was again wanting to avoid what she thinks may happen - if the click was looking at you - then socially engage and get some mastery going rather than clicking as you have the potential for cueing the negative emotion (given what she was doing before) - we are way past her wanting to be with you, so no clicks for this now. So I would have preferred to see the click as she began walking with you. This early core work is not really clickable - so think about being a little more judicious with your clicks.
See 1.41 you have missed her again because you are walking away - she did not 'stop' because she was worried about what you were doing, rather again she wants to see what is happening outside - this may worry her a little or not - so here why not try and just look to where she is looking (no clicks) and talk to her about what you are seeing and name what you are seeing - oh I see you are looking outside OK well what I can see is - .... and you see she began to walk towards you and as she sees you ignoring her she stopped. Why not try and play with the toy yourself. She is not saying she needs a moment here - I can feel your tension / frustration when I see you stand and look away here so she may be feeling this as well. So this is not a lesson in autonomy now for her - she has autonomy - so lets try and get her seeking system moving a little (she may also feel punished a little when you walk away - exercises in autonomy are now for her more about what she wants to do rather than what you want her to do - so she does not want to do 'something' go and do something yourself (rather than stand with your back to her)...make sense? 2.38 was good for her as she was engaging, but I am not sure you need to click these 'little' things. She is much more engaged with you when you are there and speaking to her - but I would not be clicking these little crunches - she is not using her core. 3.26 was a better one yep! and 3.39 - see in between these two she looked outside again - I would go and take her where she is looking with a halter and lead and see if she can get some resilience going - be on her agenda here not yours...could you go wherever she is looking? 4.53...again she was going to the direction she was looking - I would not click for these things but rather go with her and explore..see my gut is saying go out and see what it is she wants to watch- I wonder if this will be more interesting for her and help her develop more SEEKING? 5.16 you clicked as she was walking away - it is hard to see this when we are out there but the clicks are coming when she is disengaging . Even the nice leg lift after this - see where her head was - she was not engaged with you but rather outside....I look at it this way - she is in a new environment she is not with her pair bond and therefore she is unsure whether she is safe - she is wanting to explore the environment or even be with her pair bond - is there a chance that she can go do this with you?
Wow, that is a lot of food for thought! Yes, sure, I can take her outside and walk around with her. And discuss with her what she sees.
Will get back to it in details tomorrow and watch the video in relation to your comments and suggestions.
just my thoughts when I watched this - you get a little handy with the click and treat LOL I just find that SEEKING is reinforcing itself and it offers enrichment and this is when the dendrites grow in the brain
I still have problems recognising if/when there is seeking! More to experiment with.
Ok so when she is looking elsewhere and appears interested in something it is SEEKING - you will hear little air breaths even through her nostrils - so the rule of thumb I use is you are looking somewhere OK let me look also - cant see what it is - do you want to go and look - ask to walk towards and see what she does, wait if she stops when she seems fine commence again..make sense? think of anything she is seeing like a kangaroo - do you want to come closer?
6 February 2020
About riding Carlotta yesterday: you might be right, but I thought she was stopping at what she had decided to be her safe place, just how she does in her home arena. She prefers to go there to deactivate. I might be avoidance, as she never offered any CA after it, but walked off right away. And she never even did a hint of PW which is usually her way of simmering down. Just read your comments about the ground video again. Yes and yes! Will try to apply it now. On my way over to Chris. Will report later.
yes but in this video her attention was on something and she changed from side to side - it looked different from a habitual place maybe?
Yes, she definitely is very worried and anxious about the changed place. So much to check and think about. It still takes ages to get her to walk through the place in front of the arena and then into it. I try to give her lots of time, but it can be a bit draining
Took another vid today for you. I ignored my wish to ride, but instead tried to acknowledge and honour her needs and wishes. Will post once uploaded.
Is this a bit better? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUWapuA63zE&feature=youtu.be
7 February 2020
Ok so in this video at the beginning she does not seem to understand what you are asking (and it is on your agenda so this makes it hard for her). I do not believe that she is practicing autonomy - her body language appears to me to be anxious - she is very stiff in her body and her breathing is shallow and heavy. She did walk away from you at the beginning of the video so we need to use this as a clue that what is happening in this arena is not helpful for her (as this is now being practised). She does then try and engage you to show you she is trying but unfortunately this does not work for her - I suspect that you felt that the 'crunch' was not good enough and tried to socially engage by speaking to her and rubbing her but she was saying mummmmm I need more help - so what would I have done here - certainly ask for something more, that she can do with 100% success so I could click and treat - but really I would not be in the arena I would have her on a lead, walk around, cue masterful fun movements and then leave the area - open the doors allow her to see there is an escape route - see she may also be having some separation anxiety issues so having her in an area for this length of time is probably adding to this stress. But also not doing anything might be adding to the stress - you are not interesting for her here. So here at 2.39 she walks towards an exit - we have to accept that this is an exit for her ..she wants out - so leaving her there with you sitting down and not engaging her ANS could be punishing for her - go with her out the exit - explore - make it fun for her..or if she has some separation anxiety taking her away from the herd is not the best thing . at 3.13 her body language says she does not want to engage with the noodles, but you use them in any event - I can see that you just want to engage with her but see she does not feel that she is safe there so social engagement is not enough for her at the moment. She then tells you what she wants - hahahaha and you say yes which is great but I would build on this here - it is what she wants to try and say that is important - now then she steps towards the exit more and also takes a step towards you more - I really feel this is saying lets go out together - easy to say on video yep! so then you draw her attention to what is outside and this is great - and she is actually more engaged with you here. So I would have then followed this up and went outside with her. My rule of thumb is that if a horse does not engage with whatever I am doing within a couple of seconds (3), then what I am doing is not engaging - so today these noodles are not interesting. Tell me your thought process here? you begin to look frustrated as well and the noodle banging gets louder and you discard one of the noodles with a little frustration LOL...at least this is how it seems. My 3 second rule tends to avoid my frustration if this were me. 4.51 see how she looks away from you again and then you look to the sky and she looks outside again - so good you diverted your gaze as this takes the pressure off her and she is then more relaxed to notice the environment. This is good you spoke to her about this - but drop the noodle and then take her out to look at whatever it is. I am at 5.20 will be back - just did not want to lose this
at 5.50 she is telling you she is not comfortable and she even looks towards you and she does not get what she needs from you - in fact you start fiddling with your hair and she lets some anxiety breaths out and then we get the licking and chewing - see for me I would say to myself - I need to go back and think about what caused these calming signs? We need to get her SEEKING she tells you what she wants (your engagement and leaving the arena). I am wondering if you are misunderstanding SEEKING? it is not instigated by us - we can set up the interesting things but it has to be the horse who instigates it - so she is saying I want out - then attach a lead rope and go out - go where she wants to go and let her explore. She is so anxious here at 6.19 when she goes to another exit - I personally feel that she has no mastery in this situation and making her stay there is not fair - sorry I know you are trying. She showed you through her spook that she was very anxious but you kicked a ball towards her? and of course you can see what she thought of that. That spin at 6.32 is interesting - I read this as now she has to keep her eye on you and outside.....just my read of it - see if she could explore with social engagement outside she would develop resilience and mastery - we still dont know if the inside is what the problem is, the outside (full of things that could harm her and being in the arena she has no possibility of escape) or there is separation anxiety ...so we have to work on what her cues mean not what we want to do. after that engagement at 7.30 she looks more alert - but very high in the sympathetic and higher in ventral rather than dorsal (shows how quickly social engagement can work - even the clicker as part of this). So onto the lead - yes but we know that inside is the problem at the moment so go outside - make sense? this is just how I am reading it in hindsight - easy to do in the video of course (and I may be way off)
Thank you, Julie. Gosh, all this is pretty discourageing, not only for her, but for me too. Being so much off understanding her needs makes me really sad. I know that she is not comfortable in this arena, never was, but things seems worse than ever. Can't be just sepration anxietey, as at home she doesn't care at all to be away from Valeta while we work together.
No dont think this way....video is easier to see and we train our eye this way...and I could be wrong Yes but this is a different environment now
Dang, this all is very frustrating. Tomorrow there is a training day at Chris' place with some friends and their horses, and I had planned to join in with Carlotta. It takes places in the big paddock she is now with the herd, and I thought I'd just saddle her and walk around with her there a bit and maybe participate in one or two little activities. But it doesn't look really promising. But then, maybe it will be a lot easier outside. Will play it by ear.
no I think this is a great idea - see you are missing one of the reasons this may be happening, you are taking her away from herd - this is not a familiar environment for which she is living in now - it is a different matter at home as it is a familiar environment - the best thing for her is to be with the herd not alone in the arena.
Well, I can bring Valeta in too and put her into the yard near the arena.
10 February 2020
Feeling a lot better today, so back to Chris' for a little play with the horses. Brought both in, and Carlotta was a lot calmer and happier. She still couldn't go to the scary corners of the arena, but closer already. And happy to stop there and stand quietly. I let her check out Valeta and what Chris was doing (trimming feet) with a young Icey gelding. She has a young vet student here for work experience this week, and boy, is she teaching her lots of valuable stuff!
whatever you feel comfortable with - the video I saw she was not stopping in corners she was going to them to see a way out - sorry but thats how it looks to me
Then I brought Valeta into arena (Carlotta in the yard) and did a few minutes of playing with her: SATS, then asking her to walk at my side while I held out the poolnoodle. She didn't understand in the beginning, so I put the leadrope on briefly, and she got it quickly. Was very interested in the poolnoodle, and I clicked her, each time her "knee" touched it. I have the feeling that she is already thinking about lifting them a bit more
Yes, sure, that's what it was last time, but she was a lot more relaxed this time, and I made sure to listen to her. Before bringing her in, we wandered around together, and she greeted the stallions and youngsters in the nearby paddocks. She didn't want to stay too long, so we went back inside, so she could be with Valeta.
Ok so thats good on all counts - why are they still there? surely the fire danger is over there now?
Fire danger season is still full on. We had another fire a few days ago nearby and heat can come back anytime. Often strong winds too. I am hoping to bring them back around mid March, by then it should be less dangerous.
Are your fires out by now? yep they are out So, you could save all your cattle too?
yes the dam is nearly full and the creek is running and the eel took advantage of the creek - he will control the bugs down there
11 February 2020
We were off the net all day, so I went over and played some longer with my horses. Chris came home by the time I was finished with Carlotta, so I offered to take photos of whatever she wanted. She saddled her new horse, Phoebus, and he was brilliant (see report on my Timeline).
Took only 150 photos (pity nobody was there to take photos of Valeta, she was so cute) and 5 vids. Gosh, that Caparison (the hood worn by jousting horses), is sooo bright! Chris' heraldic colours are yellow and red, so you can imagine that...
We decided to bring my horses home on Thursday, as the weather has been pretty good recently. If ever there is another nasty spell, Chris can always take them back to her place, as they are completely uncomplicated with the big herd.
Will be wonderful to have them back and finally be able to ride normally again!
yeah not my cup of tea . as I am afraid I dont see joy in these horses when they are jousting - joy with the riders yes - but it is all about the riders I get that. I really dont see any joy in any equestrian sports. But I am glad the weather is good enough to bring them home though
I know many horses who take a lot of pride in performing, Julie. And Phoebus have a very cool temperament and took it all in his stride.
I am quite sure that Valeta would also love to produce herself in public. But no danger that her oldie mum would do this anyway
I have witnessed several times Keldan (my then Icelandic gelding now working for Chris) being very eager to perform and just "kill" his big adversaries! He has the soul of a warrior and loves to show off. Has proven it again and again
Ok thats what you feel and I respect that - not shown on the pics I am afraid to me, in many I see the whites of their eyes showing and worry lines - which horses specifically I could not tell you though, but bringing back medieval times when we know how harshly this 'game' was for horses is beyond me - yeah not really feeling it I am afraid - a horse that wants to 'Kill' is not a horse who is happy
domestic horses are not warriers - they only need to create harm to others or feel ' kill' when they are threatended - this is the point - it is not in their ethology to want to think 'kill' normally
I suppose many of the Icelandic horses wouldn't survive in their home country if they weren't! They often have to take things in their own hands in order to be able to survive snow storms, crossing torrential, glacial rivers etc and save their rider's life in the process. I have often felt that brave heart in Keldan.
And that joy to show off and produce himself.
But Icelandics are sortof not overly domesticated, at least the ones from the Island. And I feel many spanish horses have a lot of that joy of showing off.
Will be interesting to see what will be the case for Valeta, as she is half Icelandic and half spanish.
Iceland treat their horses very badly and I am no fan of what they do - I have nothing to do with them or their training methods. They are not domesticated - boy you speak to those who will tell the truth about how they manage their horses and you may be surprised....those who will be honest that is and not present this romantic notion that is actually not true. There is a huge difference between getting a human out of danger and mimicking fights - when a horse gets a human out of danger it is in fact to flee not to stand up and fight - I can see from the pictures that the horses are not happy - never want to meet them in person to be honest - I would be very rude to their humans LOL
13 February 2020
You know at least ONE nice Icelandic man... with horses, that is
Anke is more than happy to meet every student and his wishes, and this often involves groundwork. Each time before I get on Carlotta, she does some straightening etc. work in hand with her.
well maybe she can be given some advance notice and plan something for Valeta Thing is we need to figure out who is able to do work days. Chris and I and Margaret no prob, but most people work, of course.
Thing is we need to figure out who is able to do work days. Chris and I and Margaret no prob, but most people work, of course.
well they can take a day off
Yes, Valeta on the ground. She will not have a rider for at least another year, and then only briefly and go back into paddock resp. ground tasks until she will be over five. it will be good for her
Was very funny yesterday, when I put Orange Man on her back, she happily walked at my side (no leadrope). That one poolnoodle session had sufficed to teach her that she can walk at my side at liberty
yep thats good that she is not going to be a worry wort
It has a good feel about seeing her so sure of herself that almost nothing bothers her - and I did challengeing things, like sliding it over her croup and let it fall just behind her tail and from the sides. She will make an excellent mount for somebody in her mid 70ies!
hahahaha! You know Alice Cooper is 74 now
What I like in her is that she has a lot of spunk and brio. Sparky, her dad, is Chris' bombproof horse for beginners who want to have a try of gait, but I find him too boring. Too spoilt by firy gaited horses.
Hehehe, but he doesn't ride horses, I guess?
she will be a good riding horse I am sure as I know you will take the time for her
14 February 2020
Now, how interesting this morning: when I came to halter Carlotta, she wouldn't let me near her, but instead ran around me in big circles, shaking her head and having a cheeky gleam in her eye. So I just stood and waited and eventually the circles became smaller. After some 10 minutes, she stopped, turned towards me and looked at me. Then walked off again, head shaking and hopping. But quickly stopped again at about 2 m from me. I could see how much she was thinking about coming to me, but finally didn't, so I walked to her and haltered her. Valeta had stood at my side the whole time, so she got rewarded with some SATS etc while we waited
Carlotta had a good stare at neighbour's sheep, then came to the tying rail. I was very pleased to notice that she was back to normal and could do all her usual skills of a well ridden horse, much unlike from what she had been the last 2 weeks at Chris'.
She walked to her favourite corner, stopped and almost immediately did a crunch. Then happily walked off and performed her beautiful trot. We stopped after 10 minutes, as it was already pretty hot, and I wanted to reward her to be my dream riding horse again
At least she is back to normal. On the sky bus to the city now
15 February 2020
I tried to get a couple of vids for the course today. Of course, Carlotta wasn't in the mood for everything, but hopefully there are bits you can use for the coaching. If not, I can try again. Had one with a short sequence of pretty good PW, but must have deleted it accidentally. Will try to load it again later.
I suppose you should cut out the bits that are suitable, if that's not too much hassle? You did so for Susanne's and other videos, as it sounds.
Here they are. Please decide what you wish to use from them, if any
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XsIuFfYU7E&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAaaw-aSZjk&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQWzzicQ6m4&feature=youtu.be
Sorry the third one showed double. Can't figure out how to delete it. Only the last crunch was OK in the last video, IMO. Interesting that she takes my position far back as cue to shift her weight back a lot and coil her loins.
And, of course, in the heat of the action, I forgot about using Least good reinforcer
16 February 2020
the first video I am not sure except there are some shots that may be useful, the second one is better, shame though you are out to the corner of the video allot, but you did not really use any SATS for this you used pressure and release and I would prefer not to comment on this (as you know what I would be saying) but there was some good shaping that you did. So I have to think about and the value of using pressure and release or not - your core activation you are asking for her lower back and very much towards the lumbar area to lift - I am a little confused why you are not watching her cervical spine and seeing how far out in front her legs are???? or was this a coaching moment for me?
Anyway, about the vids: maybe just discard them, no need to use any as material, as we have enough showing the wrong way of doing it already
I went through them again and tried to find that great PW Carlotta did, but looks like it didn't record sigh
Might give it another try today, once the rain stops.
I am always filled with the best intentions when I go and video things, but then my decade-old habits come through at times, like for the pressure and release. Sorry, should write on my wrist to do SATS instead and pay more attention to her position when asking for CA....
its OK what ever you use if this is what is best for you and her but you did not blend LOL. I thought it a little strange though that your core work has changed so much ?
Another try: panther walk (from 0:40 to 0:50). It's only a medium one, but maybe usable?
https://studio.youtube.com/video/uwNXcet_1lg/edit
And Core Activation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5UhlJc6kVs&feature=youtu.be From 0:35
There were some opportunities for LRS, so I used them I thought the last one (2:40ish) wasn't too bad. There might be a couple of useful things in today's riding video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_qYJojAFpU&feature=youtu.be At 3:43 an exercise from Jec Balou's book. 9:15 trot 13:48 panther walk, immediately followed by power trot. This maybe interesting for Ella, who is working on the same?
your first link does not work - it is to the studio at you tube with the core work you are pushing down and not 'up' and also you are forgetting to model it yourself. The last one was a good try
yes you are rightr she is doing more like a small spanish walk here under saddle
she is doing more like a small spanish walk here under saddle as she is not using her core. With Ellas video I used it simply to show the core activation as we can see it clearly when the base of the shoulders lift - it was a stop gap until I can get out there and video myself
18 February 2020
Pushing down? You mean because I slightly tap on her back with my fingertips? Have stopped doing this and started lifting my own core again, and focused on the withers. Hope this will remedy it.
Really? It feels like she is lifting a lot and uses her core, especially when doing these exercises. You got me all depressed when you said that. I have worked so hard for so long now and it seems I just can't get it right sigh
Have gone to, after the ride, asking for one crunch, and stopping pretty quickly, while it's still "good" (back lifted). That seems more motivating for her to know that there won't be repetitions, if she makes one good effort.
this is the reason I wanted to slow the video down and scale it up - I may have missed it but it was to make sure and if I was right to show you that you are not asking for the lift then the leg. The back is not what lifts in a crunch / pw first - it is the cervical vertebrae - the core then engages. If she was lifting (then it is a PW) you would see you rise just before she lifts her leg and then there is the momentum forward as she stretches it out. Yes you are correct about repeating things - we dont repeat, we change what we ask
Got a sketch for Star done: Does this look like him to you? Pretty difficult as the photo is so dark.
I thought you were going to give me the chance to find another for him - no it doesn't unfortunately - he is a standie not an arab LOL so give me time to get photos - you were going to tell me what video to take snaps from but I will do them when I can if you cannot remember
Lifting the shoulders is but one of the keys to a crunch but it cannot possibly be her idea if you are asking for it under saddle and helping because the lift then wont follow through to the core - it lifts the front for sure and it gives the feeling of being elevated and it can be built on to lift the core, but it will never be her idea - this is one of the reasons Steinar developed the crunches on the ground so that the core will be engaged
Yes, working on it. Now she seems to do them (mostly) quite well, I will try to transfer it into a step or two of movement. Could be quite tricky
you begin with one step because the core gets lost after the first and then if you have a good cue the core reactivates after a couple of steps
Sounds like a great approach. Thank you. Will keep you informed how it goes. Do you have any video footage on this? Maybe it is in the last chapter of the course? I'm about to start reading through it.
no I have to do it, I have been down with the flu since I came back from melbourne and went in today to get something for it, so hopefully in a couple of days I will feel more myself and get out and do it LOL - I am only managing about 20 mins for both of them out there and I then crumble watching movies and sleeping hahahaha
21 February 2020
Interviewed Anke about this, and here is her answer:
Guten Morgen Anke, wenn Du mal einen Moment hast, kannst Du mir einen Gefallen tun und mal in dieses Video schauen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_qYJojAFpU&feature=youtu.be
Und zwar ab 9:15 und 13:48 Da zeigt Carlotta den Trab, an dem wir gemeinsam seit Deinem letzten Besuch gefeilt haben. Jetzt behauptet die Julie, sie würde ihr Core nicht aktivieren. Bin ziemlich am Boden zerstört, da ich mir riesige Mühe gebe, alles richtig zu machen. Was meinst Du dazu?
Ok here is a few pointers ! - lovely seat such an improvement! - Carlotta lengthen her whole frame and looks really good There is always room for improvement - she rolls you out to the Try to lengthen your left leg and sit centered balance on -your left knee lightly against the saddle and - encourage her to step through with the right hind from your right calf To help her straighten
Beautiful swinging trot 9:30 9:37 ish See if you can lengthen upwards, like riding on top of a wave. Her back muscles are working you can help her by being a lighter load! Huge improvement 9:46 In the halt you can see how she leaves right hind leg behind Encourage her to walk forward into the halt.
Relax your right hand right hip up under your right hand. Try to avoid that she rolls you out of the seat. Onto her shoulder.
- lovely upwards canter transition She has trouble maintaining it she losses her strength Give her time short and correct will help her get stronger! Stay on top of the wave no diving through.
I think you got this!
canter transitions are good maintaining the canter is the next step, one stride at the time.
I like how you praise her she is so proud.
To early for flying change her canter needs more jump. She lost her confidence afterwards and was all over the place- patience âºï¸
Like how you settled her in the walk nice and clear steady work.
Spanish walk ride her higher in the neck she needs more room for her hind legs, they are left behind at times. Again less is more -patience
Some beautiful work She is looking stronger!
But she is falling in and out if it for now, you can feel it when she drops her wither you tip forward. This is just strength and it is like you tripping ( Rutsche) just thin ice. It will get steadier Great work
Danke für das tolle Feedback, Anke! Bin sehr begeistert. Werde mir das jetzt oft vor meinem inneren Augen vorspielen und versuchen umzusetzen.
Ja, wir haben weiterhin einige Probleme, aber ich denke, es wird allmählich besser. Ich muss nur darauf achten, nicht so gierig zu werden und zuviel auf einmal zu wollen! Ist halt sehr mitreissend, wenn sie solche Sachen anbietet! Ich könnte dann immer Radschlagen vor Begeisterung! Sie hat das ja selber erarbeitet, aus unseren winzigen Anfängen währen der letzten Clinic. Ich bin SOOO STOLZ auf sie!
Ich bleibe geduldig und werde es weitehrin Schritt für Schritt angehen. Hab mich heute morgen dran erinnert, aufrechter im Trab zu sitzen und ich glaube, es hat ganz gut geklappt. Ist Jahrzehnte her,
dass ich Trab geritten war, und einen so schwungvollen Trab noch nie, schon gar nicht ausgesessen. Aber ich finde, es klappt schon ganz gut. Mein verlängerter Rücken wird sich auch noch besser anpassen, haha. Freue mich schon auf die nächste Clinic. Und nochmal vielen, lieben Dank. Du hast mich wieder so richtig aufgebaut!
23 February 2020
Training day at Narrawin Stud yesterday, and Carlotta and I participated, so she could experience something new.
She was quite relaxed and happy to try her hand, euh hooves, on doing some passes, some with me touching hands with my "adversary". After about half an hour, we stopped, as I didn't want to overdo it and leave her with a positive impression.
http://www.lemis.com/grog/Photos/20200222/big/Jousting-training-day-25.jpeg
http://www.lemis.com/grog/Photos/20200222/big/Jousting-training-day-33.jpeg
http://wwww.lemis.com/grog/Photos/20200222/big/Jousting-training-day-523.jpeg
http://www.lemis.com/grog/Photos/20200222/big/Jousting-training-day-524.jpeg
24 February 2020
Have kinda plodded along with Carlotta over the last few days. Last Saturday, we were at Chris' place, and I showed her the track for doing passes. The many little orange flags were flapping in the wind, but that didn't bother her much.
Going towards and crossing "adversaries" was another matter. We walked quietly past each other, and she got the hang of it quickly, so we could do some in corto. No cantering this time, as I wanted her to feel comfy and happy.
The only little moment was when Craig (in armour) cantered past us and she shied a little bit, but it was only one little sideways leap.
Called it a day pretty quickly, and she was happy with it. We didn't come on the planned trail ride, as the others wanted to give the horses a break and have lunch. Another time, maybe only with Chris and Amber.
Since then, back to our routine at home. Very cold and windy today, so I coulddn't bring myself to go out and saddle her. Maybe I will just take her to the arena and do a short play session. It's like in winter today, brrrrrr.
she probably would love a day off by the sounds of it anyway!
Hahaha, I think you're right, so be it. So funny how she and Valeta whinny loudly together, as soon as they spot me (and the wheelbarrow with the hay) in the distance. I have started feeding hay now, as it is so cold and the remaining grass is very short. Carlotta has lost a teensy-weensy bit of weight while over at Chris, but has put it back on in no time. sigh
yea know the feeling
Terrible, isn't it?! I had sortof hoped that our recent work would influence her metabolism, so she could loose some weight, but no way.
Poor Susanne has problems with Vaka, who might have foundered a bit. They checked and got her shod with special shoes and it seemed better, but today she suddenly was lame when trotting. At all the other gaits and circumtances, she is fine, still hops around in PW etc. Poor Susanne! Vet will come and take X-rays tomorrow. I have the suspicion that the farrier might have put one nail a bit too close to the white line, but we will see.
27 Feb 2020
try some sy mary's thistle - yes susanne told me what was happening when it happened but did not know about that development - you may be right but I frankly do not agree with shoes for laminitic issues - but I dont want to tell someone doing it
Where do I get St Mary's thistle?
country park - it is a great liver dextox thanks, will order some yep good
28 Feb 2020
I don't like shoes in general anymore. We haven't shoed our horses for many years now. I told Susanne about Scoot Boots, and she is keen to try them.
Out to play a bit with the girls now. Will set up Pixio and hope it won't rain. Looking quite gloomy out there...
it would be good if she could try the boots - I have not used the scoots though. have fun
I had them for a while now, after trying and rejecting others. Like them, they are unbulky and quick to put on and take off.
28 Feb 2020
Took 3 vids today, here they are: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAIr2UtYwLs&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7dpoUdeOOI&feature=youtu.be
If there is anything useful in there for the course, please let me know. Greg has put up a video editing programme for me, so I could try to cut out the bits you want. Have to learn first how to do it.
I liked Valeta's creativity for the straddling. Sorry, I had to keep her on lead rope, as the camera was inside the arena and she had a tendency to go and push it. Will have to do another setup for liberty work.
Carlotta tried a couple of fairly good crunches, sorry CA's, and at the end, we tried to take one step forward. Mainly for you to comment how it can be done better.
Greg said he might be able to send you the raw version, will see how it works. Um, the second one is wrong, I think. Here is the hopefully correct one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKE9PYuzQzI&feature=youtu.be Have removed the second one.
OK will look tomorrow - I have a video I did for the coaching I am going to put to audio - of using the pointer above the shoulders. I could not load it today as the 4G was out but will do tomorrow and hopefully my voice is decent enough tomorrow to put Jyls coaching up. I used Star for it and I only asked for small lifts as he needed a treatment in any event but if I used Sharney she would make it look too easy hahaha
the raw files are simply a copy and paste in the dropbox folder link you have with the coaching Haha, of course, your two are just too masterful!
Seems it is not that simple with our programme, but will see what we can do. Gimme a bit of time.
hahaha - yeah I am really trying very hard not to show off - I tell them small not big - bigger does not mean better you are helping others LOL
if you have the raw file in your pc then open the link and then navigate to your raw file and press open
Leave it with me, will try to work it out.
I looked at the first one, you would do well to let her stay at the pole to get the proprioception benefits - we know when this happens as they start to relax, zone out, get pins and needles in their feet and yawn - we leave them in whatever position they want to be until they choose to leave. So when she went back to the pole this was great but now we leave them to their own feelings and just wait - but good job for getting her there but the benefits are proprioceptive (not clicker) and you are in a hurry to take her off it - so wait and stand and just be with her and see what happens - the first time with Sharney was 20 mins LOL
golly the pixio makes such a difference though - I am tempted to slice your straddling and do it as a coaching - steinar should be calling tomorrow (unless he cancels) and I can check on her age but I am sure 3.5 is fine for crunches
I think I have the full first session with Sharney I am not sure if it was actually loaded into the course - so I will check that
with the riding one, why not go outside and walk around the shrubs? aggh stopped loading now - be back tomorrow
Can't go out on my own, as I promised Greg I never would again. Last time I did (about 6 months after the accident), and at the first corner, Carlotta did a 180° spin and dumped me. Fortunately, I already had the safety vest...
She is pretty reactive when out on her own, but fine when in company. So now I have to wait for someone to ride with me.
Which can be tricky, as it involves that Chris needs to either bring her horse or pick up Carlotta, as we live 5 km apart. But we are working on it and it happens from time to time!
29 Feb 2020
I am talking about outside the arena gate?
with carlotta I probably would have left her there at 1.10 and let her experience the benefits of it first. that first CA was not bad - remember you have the pointer and slow down - so as she begins remember to haver her focus on the pointer so she does not use her neck. the pointer was used well by you the second one - but remember to ask for the CA first - her front legs look a little tucked under but it could be the angle (so the shoulders are not straight above her, but a little forward?). Yes this is the way we begin with using the core dont be afraid to walk some steps and then ask again for the CA
it should be fine to begin nice 'little' crunches, but lets record everything from the get go as we have nothing from start to finish
actually the more I think about it - the more it makes good sense to do a case study - and then lets show it to Steinar - it will be good feedback for me also - so first - dont click too often and click for small muscle movements and use the pointer the way I am here in this video AND dont begin with a wall - use the pole on the ground - make sense?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nxtqbnkbnlpua95/Star%20shoulder%20core%20comp.mp4?dl=0
Oh lovely, will love to participate, Julie. Sorry, in a hurry, as off to Pilates, but will have a closer look this arvo.
Can't walk around arena with Carlotta, as there is no room, only about 50 cm between the wooly bushes and the fence, haha. But I can take her out and wander around the driveway and the flower bed in the middle. Good idea.
yep that will do it, extend the arena in your head. have fun
I can also go and ride in my middle paddock, now that the ground has dried out and not
it would be good for her - you would need to use cones to sit the beacons on though
Haha, meaning that you want me to film that too?
I would like to see her demeanour because I fear that the arena stifles her
Will love to participate with Valeta in the case study. How often would you like me to film her? Until she can do some nice crunches?
OK, will see what I can do.
I have sufficient wooden posts around the middle paddock, only the south side is just droppers. had a good chat to steinar today and yep he wants to publish some case studies - we have one complete one I will put together from Ella but it is about showing different horses, and where this will be taken with different disciplines - he is very excited about it - but if we film it all with her then we can document the full progression as he is very interested in tweaking the early stages and he likes what I do
5,000 sm is too hard for the pixio thats why I was suggesting some cones to place a beacon How big should I make it?
Sounds great that chat with Steinar. Will get started tomorrow morning. Will be hot, but early in the morning should be fine. actually the more I think about it - the more it makes good sense to do a case study - and then lets show it to Steinar - it will be good feedback for me also - so first - dont click too often and click for small muscle movements and use the pointer the way I am here in this video AND dont begin with a wall - use the pole on the ground - make sense?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nxtqbnkbnlpua95/Star%20shoulder%20core%20comp.mp4?dl=0
Yes, sounds good. All excited about seeing how it will go. Valeta might really be a good candidate, as she is so people-oriented and has no fear issues. The only thing to deal with will be her over-eagerness, haha. Yes, will use the ground pole, that shouldn't be a problem.
5,000 sm is too hard for the pixio thats why I was suggesting some cones to place a beacon
I don't have very big cones, just the medium ones, will those be high enough for the beacons? P.S. Maybe Steinar will accept Valeta more easily, as she is half Icelandic, hahahaha.
I dont recall without looking at the specs but 1/2 a KM is too much
OK, will see what I can work out. Maybe Greg is willing to come out and take some video footage. He has so many excellent lenses for any occasion.
It is not really about Steinar accepting it , it is about documenting it and seeing what comes of it as I have different techniques that are not shown in the project - the ones with Carlotta are not for Steinar I just want to see whether she changes her demeanour
Actually it's not half a kilometer, but 70 x 70 metres, which makes 4,900 m2 or half a hectare. Yes, I understand that only Valeta is for Steinar.
? i hectre is 2.5 acres Yes, I think it is. So, the middle paddock would be about 1.2 acres approx.
yeah well you wont get more than 500m but it is fine as when you are right down the bottom it will be just a glitch
1 Mar 2020
I just checked and the 8 min straddling is there in the course - see how we just 'wait' and talk to ourselves LOL - and happy birthday!
Thank you Julie. Hat a big fright late night and this morning. Leo, my personal borzoi, is sick, howling with pain and salivating and blood from the mouth. Off to emergency vet. We discussed option and decided to have him checked under anaesthetics (you could hardly touch his mouth) and do what is necessary. Scheduled to pick him up again approx early arvo.
Yes, I saw the 8 min waiting a while ago. Wow, you are so patient!
Will take out Valeta now and film the first attempt for the case study. Will be hot later and pretty windy now, but should still be OK.
Oh hope Leo is ok
Seems it's "only" a hefty graze on his tongue. We will pick him up in an hour. Took 4 vids for you today. Uploading right now. Gosh, Valeta is... just Valeta, hahaha. She has come to the conclusion (no idea how) that I want her to swing her bum in my direction. So this is what she did.
Good about Leo.. Oh well we will work it out
it happens Yep.
Here are the vids: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_SCLN4frsw&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3xCnm4m5wY&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inYYn9sWoS4&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfRfE7SvmyI&feature=youtu.be
so trying to watch the first one but internet is crap - why are you clicking for walking over the pole? and then you are doing what you want as a PW but she has not got core posture yet? Sorry I cannot see what it is you are clicking for - you are relying too much on the click and She is confused as well - we dont want her to think she walks over the pole when we will be using it for straddling. So are you trying to her her hinds in front of the pole for crunches? that would make sense but there are so many clicks when she does not do this? assuming this 5.42 is good but then you need to wait for her back legs to be over to click. so 6.28 is a good position but you click too much to get there - let her work it out. 6.32 there was a movement that I would click for, but you did it soon after this good! you need to take the pressure off her this is why she is moving back - so you need to stand in the same direction as her. The internet is crap be back tomorrow for the others
2 Mar 2020
so the pole straddling begins great but you are not letting her stand there - the stradding is for proprioception and relaxation, you click too often and what is happening is you are capturing the emotions she is feeling at the time - which I am reading as lack of emotional control. So when she had the front legs nice stay there, slow down yourself and this will help her slow down. .49 was looking good but then she raised her leg to play and you clicked it - so think about what she is getting from this session? the more she becomes hyped and offering behaviours the more clicks she gets - so how can work on the opposite to this (at the pole)? Now you are going well here to get all four feet straddling but we need to also consider her emotions so if this was the beginning of the session this would be a pretty good effort but stand still yourself - you move she will follow you so we need her to learn that it is OK to stand and at the moment she needs you close and quiet to help her confidence. Now I have tried to watch what happens when she turns her butt to you - there is nothing in her body that I can see that screams anxiety - it almost looks like a cue has developed where you are placing your hand? but the next time your hand was not there... so lets think of the least reinforcing stimulus when this happens....as soon as you get an inkling that this is going to happen we need you to move forward (out of her way) pause normally in your mind for 2-3 seconds and then ask her to do something she loves that does not involve movement ....target maybe? Becareful you are capturing her foot down rather than her lift high at the knee - I would time your click to when she plants on the ground here as I suspect she is thinking a leg raised is what you want. Yep we need to wait for a while and just let her experience two feet first because she is so young and has little emotional control that only comes with experience - so lets give her the two feet experience for a while and wait - yes you need patience - even do a little bladder meridium work to encourage a relaxation here...it really became far too windy to work I thought and with a horse who needs to learn emotional control it is overstimulation (not to mention you were getting blown away...how is she at head down relax?
In the third you are clicking for her front over the pole - remember you are wanting her back feet to come over - so wait till she stands with her back feet in the position you want her in - immediately though I notice that she is calmer. Your second click is marking her moving towards you...lets try not to rely on the clicker this much - I suspect that her lack of emotional control is not being helped when she thinks if she moves towards you she gets a click and treat...make sense?.....41 for me would have been the first click
sorry meant not to press enter.... when you began SATS you lost her back legs and you are standing looking towards her and this creates pressure - see the last coaching video I did for Jyl - stand facing the same direction as she and further back. The next time you went over the pole was allot better as you waited for her back legs but I would wait for both back legs. See 1.40 PERFECT (your click was a second too late but well done for seeing it). easier to see now but 1.50 was a good effort as well. freeze at 1.55 see you are looking down - so the image I want you to think about is a string on the pointer lifting the shoulders (not withers) to the sky - can you see in this image that you appear to be pushing the withers down? I think it was great when you next clicked and perfect to leave it there for the time being
can you try and get the raw files to me for the core work?
I would like to begin the case study as soon as I see the videos because if I leave it, before I know it there are too many and I am behind and it wont be as good as my memory will not be fresh in the last pole straddling one, where she is actually trying to follow you wherever you move this I feel is as a result of her age, the fact that she has been highly reinforced for coming towards you - and she is becoming frustrated the more it happens. So this is where the least reinforcing stimulus will come in - so we need to have a behaviour that is going to calm her down - so we need to brainstorm something she loves, that can be done everywhere and is well practised ...ideas? Also I know you are used to the wind but it is sending her berko when she is already not handling allot of emotional control. you need to also remember the purpose of straddling and it will be very good for her emotional control as well - what happened???LOL as soon as she stood with all 4 feet you stopped it? rather than stand there and just cope with waiting and watching and helping her get the benefit ROFLMAO
wow, so much feedback!
Yes, I had the idea of clicking her for walking into position with finally hind feet in front of the pole. Thought she might get too frustrated if I only stand there and let her work it out. Maybe now that she has an idea what the aim is, I could try to encourage her verbally instead. Good point with me looking in the same direction. Will see how it works next time. Do you want it filmed too? sorry - would you prefer that I was 'shorter'? I tend to just make comments as I am going through the videos - and I know it can get excessive
only the core work - but of course if you video the straddling, happy to look at it No, it's great and much appreciated. Gives me so many enlightening details which is wonderful. Now, brekkie, will come back later.
3 Mar 2020
the link is in the workshop
actually this link will work better for that system https://www.dropbox.com/request/aW3RCgNfmYQmCGy6lHPr
4 Mar 2020
yep and the quality is perfect!
so with the straddle I had suggested it would be a good case study for the workshop (or even the next one) - I am fine to do this as long as I add to it as we do it - what do you think though? as I had the full one with Sharney I thought it would fit in to it - or even a coaching one? but I would personally like to see the straddling done sequentially as it can really help teach emotional control as well - what do you think?
but yes your 1/3 for the two of them if you can find the raw files - the quality is so much better and it means if I have to I can scale up without loosing quality
Yes, fine by me.
Ok ta
yep just love her and tell her how wonderful and grateful she is - try a little bladder meridian
OK, will do!
Good to hear. One more in Dropbox (worked at first try, yeah), another one uploading right now, two more in the arvo, hopefully.
Ok ta yep the first one is coming through - I will have to leave them till tomorrow to download as the internet is far too slow now - the first one will take 2 days to download LOL
All 5 vids are in the dropbox now, it seems. Have added Carlotta with her little CAs as well. Just in case
yeah ta - a little too many for my ADSL to retrieve - when I can afford more 3G I will download them - let it roll for the last 2 hours now 7 days before it is all downloaded.
OK, will upload the two from today. Was quite frustrating, as many times she was so mothy, but we managed to get a couple of good moments, I think.
You can let me know when you are through with it all, then I will take some more for you.
Ok will let you know in a week LOL- I cannot afford more 3g at the moment to download your videos - usually I have one at a time but we will see how fast the ADSL is tomorrow morning
5 Mar 2020
yes great, I will try and get to them today - it is really when I get up that the internet is fastest but lets see how we go - also I got a notification that your server cannot accept my reply to your email about the stress cycle pic - I said: 'you are probably trying to click on the email link (there is something strange going on) - I think there is a glitch just to to the index and you will see it with the other polyvagal things - will see what happens tomorrow and call them if I need to'
OK so I managed to get some 4G this morning and got them - there are more now than there were before and I have no way of knowing what is what so I will have to compare them all - dont send any more through dropbox until I can work these out and then work out a way of knowing what is coming in - I will try and do this today but I need to get some work done first
spoke to Steinar this morning about what we are doing here and is it OK that he uses this whole thing with her as a case study? My plan would be to send them to him every couple of days with my comments (that way he can tell me also if I have missed something or should have explained things diffeñrently?
OK now I see whats happened - alrighty the pole straddling you are doing now is allot better - you are taking your time and this will improve so great - now the other core one that was in dropbox and not added to youtube (ending in 06) is this the third one?
a couple of things to remember from video 1 - try and stand in the same direction 2. dont click for front feet over the pole but only the back 3. now and again lets see what she is like when she moves away from the pole - try and ask wherever she ends up standing. The other thing is that can you tie the watch to her mane rather than have it on you? she does not look like she will roll when she is with you
I am just looking at the new one for core work you put in dropbox, I suspect you did not line up the pixio quite right as we loose some towards the end - I tend to not line it up on the centre of the video frame but a little to the left of centre - but doing this now and have done the other two and have edited them and fixed the wind the best I can
so here is my take on the third video - the time markers will be out as I did this on the one I edited where I cut out the beginning but I will send these all to you. Yes much better at waiting for her back legs to come over the pole and again she does seem calmer. The first click was a little late. I would have clicked at .24 but excellent work. Your social engagement is really fantastic but I still would suggest you start moving to her side and facing the same way as she is. We want to get her out of the habit of coming close to you also when you are standing in front of her. But her manners are really improving as is her emotional control â so good work. Right there at .44 click â and lets time these clicks at first to be when the muscle movement begins, not as it is ending.
We are definitely seeing a more confident horse hereâ¦right there at .56 â she is seeing you come towards her side as a cue to move her muscles â this is great â so click here 2.57 click â so we need to get you clicking just a little earlier. The next click at 3.39 was well timed. We are looking the frames a little here but we can still see enough and another good click at 5.08. So we need to get you to move a little further back and face her same direction â but this is really getting great â and this is only her third time! are you noticing how much calmer she is?
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ih1mpjgyahehj2p/AADfUlzyq7qkDXQKwwjgXhfHa?dl=0
OK so I managed to get some 4G this morning and got them - there are more now than there were before and I have no way of knowing what is what so I will have to compare them all - dont send any more through dropbox until I can work these out and then work out a way of knowing what is coming in - I will try and do this today but I need to get some work done first
Pity I can't give them names when loading them into the dropbox, would make things easier. Can you see the numbers (the "names" of the raw videos)? In that case, I can give them to you in sequence:
-62281396.MOV is the first one on 28 February -62281397 is the second one -63011400 is the first on on March 1
I have already done this now for the core (as there were only three) and your numbers are now gone, but I think I got them correct
so it is just the straddling ones so once I am upto date (I am now for the core so we can add more now) it will be easy to be on top of them
OK. What I can do from now on is send you the number when I put them into Dropbox, so you have them handy.
yep see the order they come to me in dropbox is based on size but I can work it out with the numbers you have if they are all done on the same day OK, the straddling ones are the following.
Yes, I had a look at your comments. All good and useful. Yes, of course, I say yes! You don't have to ask each time
Even if I look "stupid" at times, it can be very helpful for others who fall into the same trap. A few more comments and thoughts after yesterday's session.
Yes, a lot calmer, but she is still horribly fiddly with her mouth, and it was quite frustrating. You can see how from time to time, I couldn't help myself to block her
It will need some practicing to allow me to stand at her side, as she still is not comfortable with this, as you can see. But I think I started a bit with it yesterday. Not sure, as I didn't have time to look at the vids yet
I will work on it, promised. But at least she doesn't run back anymore when I move to her side, as she did before.
well firstly you do not look stupid- the mouth is likely from two things - you treat allot when she comes to you and you stand allot in front of her rather than to the side and of course she is still very young. We need to remember to treat when she is calm and try and treat to the side - personally with her if you are infront when you treat then take a step towards her and open your treat hand towards her chest straighten your arm and then treat (as she will have taken a step back - nice and slow)
no on video 3 she was getting better and there were times you could, just work on it and be mindful at least not to look down - yes she is getting better and better at emotional control and I suspect the straddling I saw from yesterday is really helping her have the confidence that she can stand Liked your suggestion to use head-lowering for calming, so I started to teach it to her yesterday, as you have seen. BTW, do you want me to film absolutely each session? I was planning to work some of the head-lowering, so we can use this "tool" easily in the future. I had thought of her targeting my hand with her chin as rewarding thing, but it seems to hype her up, more than anything else, so HL might be a better choice, as she seemed to take to it quite happily.
I want the core sessions videoed as this is going to be a full case study - you know this will be done in a few more sessions - if you want the straddling as a case study then we would need to see if these can be videoed as well - I wonder if on the days you want to do these two things you do straddling for a couple of minutes and then go off and crunch?
yes head lowering is going to work - no to targeting with the hand - she is too mouthy and you will get the same result Jyl did in her coaching video
About the mouthiness: she has been like that from day one, when no treats were in sight, and has been ever since. I admit that I am not consistent enough with her. When I remember to insist on her holding her head straight/or away from me for being given the treat, she does remember and does it, but as I am a "Paso" at heart, i.e. can get quite high-strung myself (haha), this of course influences her.
yes but when you are 'quiet' she is too and her whole demeanor is getting better - but this has to come from consistency too of course
I have tried several time, when in front of her, to bring my hand toward her to invite her to step back for the treat. Doesn't work very well, she most of the time curls up, but doesn't step back. I have done this lots of times before with other horses, and it always worked. She is a bit special, it seems
Must have a look at Jyl's coaching vid. In which section of the workshop is it? the problem with her is she is too quick to learn so you have to be very careful to think about what you are doing, this is another reason I want all the core work videoed (and the straddling if you are up to it) as both are going to be done in no time and you will not be able to backward record.
in the crunches, I have now begun to create new sections for peoples names# and also this means for her that extinction is going to happen very early so it is important we do what we can to prevent this
yes head lowering is going to work - no to targeting with the hand - she is too mouthy and you will get the same result Jyl did in her coaching video
Yes, good suggestion. I can play with the straddling first, then with the CA. Fine by me to use the straddling for case study as well, if you wish. Your choice. I am filming it anyway. Oh yes, she is one of the fastest learners ever I had to deal with. A true challenge to handle this correctly!
And I really appreciate your help and suggestions here. the straddling I think would be interesting maybe for the next workshop I do - I am getting very over Kayce waiting and waiting but I still need to finish the video I want to do for the wrap up and of course I just keep running out of time - so this is why if I can keep up with your two lots of videos it is less pressure
OK, once the rain stops, I will go out an do another session with her. but it is fun to see such a quick learner - and it is going to be really interesting to hear what Steinar thinks ...well lets see if he thinks my suggestions are shit before you go thanking me hahahaha
LOK, good to hear! Bahahahaha, I am very sure this will not happen, Julie! Will give Carlotta the day off, she is soaking wet anyway.
the idea with the videos for him is that he will tell me if there is anything to add to my comments or to throw out - then he will do his voice overs explaining what is happening. Oh we dont know what he will say hahahahaha - but it is a good learning experience for me also and honestly getting him excited means he is more motivated
yea heavy drizzle here crunches in the stables today
EXACTLY!
I remember all his enthusiastic, excited comments in his coaching. Made me laugh very often. yep hahahaha - but it was such a struggle to get him to do them - here with these, they will be part of his website and as this is being built to actually offer coaching it is motivating. He is working on what he wants me to edit for Ella's series and I think I will get them over the weekend so yours is the first we actually have of beginning the core work - I cannot leave it to him to do one at his place as he just does not have the time
Valeta and I feel honoured
and it is going to be a good series as there are so many different things we are doing to get the core working - and it is working
6 Mar 2020
Got 3 vids today. Valeta and CA, Valeta and straddling and Carlotta CA + first step. Will send you the youtubes when finished, so you can decide which you want loaded into Dropbox (and when).
I still messed it up a bit with the distance, so for the straddling, the feet were missing in the first part, but there were some better ones towards the end.
Same for Carlotta, there were only one or two good-ish ones at the end. But what was lovely: she came all the way up the paddock when I appeared and wanted to play. So, as she was still there and willing after Valeta's return, I spontaneously decided to bring her in for a brief session. She was pretty engaged most of the time, which was nice.
Ok no prob - it sounds like they are both happy though
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdU8ua0dIfw&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2t7Nhg0rUM&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPkCtFDwsT0&feature=youtu.be Hopefully you can extract some usefull snippets from them. Ok will look at them first thing
7 Mar 2020
OK so dont worry too much about getting her back legs to the pole - in the first couple of minutes she was fine where she was standing but because you asked her to change where she was standing this actually created frustration for her - she needs to be taught a cue to stand - it has to be clear and then lets accept the stand (even if it is not against the pole) - or even when one back leg was over and the other wasn't - just go with it..see you read my mind at 2.06. You are still facing her though when you ask and this is now preventing you from using the pointer, but rather your hands and your shoulders. I am not sure that there was anything to use the first click for except she was shooing flies. At 2.45 if you were looking she actually gave you a free back crunch - but you are so fixated on her feet you missed it LOL. We need to get a least reinforcing stimulus worked out (head down was what you were going to do) but you are not using it here when she gets mouthy and I feel we need to and this will help emotional control - see she is starting to see the pole as a quiet place (OK straddling the opposite way) but each time it is under her she is quieter..3.18 was good except you are now asking for the lift a different way - which ever way you prefer is up to you but you need to take your focus off her - she would easily have coped in that position. I would have asked for a couple there while she was quiet and in the right position - I would do a couple of asks before moving her away. But I really would like to see if the lifting of the pointer at the shoulder works better than what you are now doing - see if you do this and look at her shoulders your focus will not be on her wither so the pressure will leave you because you will be looking at the pointer and a lift in the shoulders. See your clicks when she clears the pole with her back legs get in the way of her standing against the pole as when you click she turns around and goes back to you for treats - you need to be with her slowly asking SATS like for this to work for you and her - I would just ask where ever she stood ...I was hoping you were going to ask here at 4.00 but na LOL. She can do little ones without the pole we want her shoulders to lift first not go back first and really this pole is doing your mind in as you are not 'seeing' anything else when your head is worried about getting her back feet to the pole (and then she gets anxious) - train this separately if this is what you want - here at 4.28 you are not seeing that she standing OK to begin to teach the cues, of course she is not straight but at the beginning we take it where we get it - she is quiet and could be asked to lift here and see at 4.30 she could have been clicked but you are focused on that back leg. These sessions and the accuracy that you are asking in the sessions are far too long for her attention and I think the butt to you is trying to take your mind off what you are doing - it is kind of like a child playing - when their parent is starting to get worried - I feel she is saying to you 'chill' see I am here mum'. this is especially so when she then went to you for a treat - attention to her is reinforcing (and at her age it would be) a LRS has to be taught and the sessions need to be allot shorter. training the SATS is more important that the rear legs over the pole I think - I really don't think the pole is doing anything but distracting you. And I see you are anxious out there (and she knows this) and you seem to be trying to reduce your anxiety and of course we know this is not a good mix with a horse. There was nothing she had done there to suggest that she was going to hurt you but of course accidents can happen. this was not a head down you asked her for here at 5.19 it was manic and it was something you were doing for her and this will not reduce either of yours anxiety (although she looks fine) - another thing here is that you are so close to her and touching her neck - the idea of anything that can be used as a LRS is that the horse controls it themselves when we ask and also the cue is given without the need to be so close and hands on. the video I did with the cones (one inside another) for the workshop would be a good compromise for her and you here. So my advice it to stop wanting her to stand against the pole at the moment - focus on teaching the head down as something we can use as a LRS but when she is able to stand quietly ask for the core by using the pointer at the shoulder and watch the shoulder - these sessions should be shorter as well for her (and you) but once you let go of the need to stand against the pole the anxiety confusion and frustration will reduce - (I reckon we don't need it anyway) ...if you want her against the pole we have to to SATS - remember you had established verbal cues and using these will help with social engagement - I am not seeing it when it is needed the most (when she is anxious) and this is understandable because you are worried....,but this is when she needs the support from you. There is though when you think she did something that was good or you are relieved that you did not get hurt, so for all these reasons don't think about the need to get her flush against the pole. OK so the knotted rope halter went on and you are holding her flush against the pole - but this is confusing for her you actually pushed her back when you moved towards her back with the lead and this forced her to take a step back and then you corrected this and clicked and treated - you know my views about this LOL - but I have to comment that you yanked her head up and as she moved back you clicked and treated. OK so no more comments on this from me hahahahaha - there is a better way IMO than using pressure and then clicking - this is not even something that Alex would do - she would shape on a point of contact as a cue- think about where her autonomy is? - yes at 9.32 this was good and the next one was as well - but her demeanour tells me something else - she lost her spark but you gained yours back - so if it will make it safer for you for her to be standing still in a halter that's fine, (she is not wearing a bridle so your view about the reason you use rope knotted halters doesn't wash here) but let's ask ourselves what can we do to ask her to stand? even the way I taught Sharney to stand still when I moved all around her (in the clicker DVD) would work. So I think once you let go of the need to be against the pole things will change (and shorter sessions)....gotta get back to the others when i get home, have appointments this morning and I slept in hahahahaha
actually as I was making breakfast I was thinking what the first step would be for you and her here - I think watch the video and only focus on what she does when you click and then how you treat - and then lets work out what you like and what do would like to change (physically and emotionally) here
oops what you like and what you dont (in the sense of what you would like to change)
7 Mar 2020
Oh dear, oh dear... each time I think we are starting to improve, I get from your comments that I do about 90% of it wrong. Pretty frustrating.
About the 1st video: I had understood that you wanted Valeta to have her back feet against the pole, so I tried to work towards it, especially as you had mentioned that we want both feet over the pole. When she kept swinging her bum away immediately after stepping over, I though I'd use the halter for a brief time, to try to get her to understand what was wanted. This did slow her down (together with my verbal cue "eeeasy"), and she managed to bring both feet over and stand reasonably still.
Interesting your interpretation of the bum swining. Could very well be. BTW, I am not worried that she would hurt me, just getting pretty frustrated at times
After reading all this, my morning ride was lovely, so this cheered me up again. Carlotta, for the first time, seemed to consistently and very distinctively lift her core, also at the walk, while rounding up her poll on a loose rein. Felt glorious, and almost like she did it upon her own decision.
After unsaddling, we went back into the arena briefly, and I asked for a CA, then for a step forward in it. She started to walk, and after 2 or 3 steps, I said "lift" (without other cues), and she immediately went into a beautiful panther walk. She got so many cheers and praise and lots of bread cubes and smoochies! I told her how wonderful she was and how beautiful and how much I love it. She liked that
I hope that soon I will be able to take her to the middle paddock and ride her around there a bit for you. Life has been so busy recently.
just got home -yea even in this reply you are too fixated on the pole - but it seems to me that there are some more basic things that need to be practised first - when she moved her bum over this time I could see how worried you were in your body and then shortly after this you needed to take a break and breath - I felt for you then - so the think is that the focus here on this video needs to be the treating - you need to get everything out of your mind when watching the video the first new time and only focus on how she is when you click and treat - as for the pole yes it would be good, but you see you are just so fixated on it and it is clear she does not need it - in fact using the pointer the way I suggest with SATS I do not believe that the pole is needed. So it is not that you are doing things 'wrong' it is that your attention is on the pole and getting her feet but as soon as you click she turns around and anxiety comes in for her and then of course for you. We need to go back to manners and treat delivery and being able to move around her - this will really calm her and if you are consistent she will then get confidence from this
OK, will work on this for a while. And I have put the pole away. Feeling somehow relieved that I don't "have" to use it anymore
I have done bits of what you suggest avove here and there, but not often enough to make it really stuck in her head.
OK, off to my chores. Have a nice day in the meantime
the pole is only the end issue the treat delivery and her standing still (with no pressure to feel the need to do so) is paramount to do first and then of course SATS - lets focus on this for a couple of days - it would be good to video - not that I want this video for Steinar but I would like it with these new ones as we may be able to use them later on to show before and after - it wont take long
One question: when using the pointer to her shoulder, do you mean to hold it close to the point of the shoulder (in front) or more like to the side, in the center? like I show in the video in the workshop
must dig through it and look again. OK, now I really must go.
in the straddling this least reinforcing stimulus is going well I can see you counting - but I think this will improve once we redo the manners and also a little more head down so it is not a quick bob. but you need to get out of this habit of feeding her so close to your body and the bum bag - also see how you react with your body before the LRS.....this takes away the power of it - as reaction is attention to her - so manners with the clicker and your feeding position will really help here. That was a better head down at 3.13. The last bit of straddling was good, but just stay there dont ask her to do anything - she is always calmer with the pole
much better crunch for Carlotta at 1.40 - but can you see she was using her neck, so wait a little longer before you click and take the pointer down to in front of her and as she lowers her head a little ask again and the neck will disappear then click...2.02 PERFECT this is when I would click and you are using the pointer in a better position...if I could only get you to turn a little to your left..and you see she uses her neck when she leans back - so lets try and click earlier to stop this being reinforced as she has quite an underneck..so the take off the the PW would be at 2.02 and take your hand off the wither and only use up with the pointer - you want to fix that bandage too on the pointer as it is beginning to feel like a flag
7 Mar 2020
Haha, I actually did tie in a knot this morning
OK, will work on myself not to be turned so much towards her. Devil in the detail once again... I will see tomorrow whether Carlotta can reproduce the wonderful CA then walk in PW she did today.
yeah do that with Valetas ones, we really want them for the record - as we will crap ourselves if things go great (which I know they will) and I can do some before and afters even if it is just for you - remember social engagement is for you also - so speak to her when you are feeling worried
8 Mar 2020
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kiVC2LVdtQ&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNwOlYQ2aNA&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC33JulbPB8&feature=youtu.be
Sorry 9 minutes again for Valeta. I really must look at my watch!
9 Mar 2020
did you notice a difference in Carlotta when you were in the paddock? in the core one, the lift before the PW at 4.20 was really nice - the one before that was good when you corrected her neck before you clicked
and yes 9 mins is too long for her (and you) LOL - OK so I am not sure what is happening at the beginning there were some nice seconds there when she was standing and this was worthy of working on - as soon as you began to click and treat so close to your body again, she could not control herself - dont set her up for failure - click by 1.01 and extend the time gradually. Because you have a habit of relying on the click and treat (i.e you click too often and do not rely on intermediate bridge signals) by waiting for now over 14 seconds to click and treat she is getting frustrated and this rage is starting to creep in so she pushes and nips you and if that does not work she will swing around to you (regression is beginning to occur)- now your LRS is not at play here because you are protecting yourself, as soon as you pay her the attention and push her away you are giving her the attention she is craving for, so she is going to do this again and again. So we have to work on a LRS that will work - as soon as you got the target out initially she began to be mouthy, so this defeats the purpose of the LRS - it has to be something can can calmly offer and that you can easily do where ever you are placed around her, but here the time you took before acknowledging her standing still was far too long and this is why she started. Then still no click but you are playing with the stick and this is just perpetrating the frustration and mouthiness - you cant use the pointer for this and you need to train the LRS separately you cannot train it when you need it - make sense? look at what you are clicking for at 1.45? and the emotions at 2.07. see here at 3.31 - why not click this? we need to work on her manners first as she goes to your body each time you click and you react - this will keep going like this until manners is worked on because moving your body as a result of her works for her because this gives her attention - we need to be very short with the sessions, work on one thing at a time and not set her or you up for failure - as Alex would say your loops are not clean. You are expecting too much from her when you are both standing and she deserves clicks for thñese but you dont click her - can you see as soon as the pointer comes out she starts her pushiness? and then unfortunately the click reinforced that whole chain at 4.22 - including the jumping for attention - first though see how she changes when you use the pointer? from the ABC perspective A (antecedents) is the pointer and as soon as this comes out it creates B (behaviour) and C (consequences) is that you both end up in a wrestling match that ends up with a click and treat.
we need to let go of the pointer and certainly not use it to train the LRS (as it is supposed to be a calm behaviour), also I do see a bit of pressure to get her head down when she does not listen to your air pressure - which is just a threat if she does not then you will connect your hand to her neck (and she can't relax well because of what the pointer is doing to her hahahaha). I have always trained head down with only +R and it has always been a calm behaviour for horses- otherwise I would not suggest training it - for her we can't use target so is there something else you can use that does not involve pressure? So what we have to do is work on one thing at a time....no pointer! the sessions have to be short to make sure you both succeed and we need a clean loop - now allot of the time we will get some white noise in the loops but we need to aim for more clean than dirty ones...another reason why our sessions need to be very short - now you follow Alex - so another Alex idiom...take 10 treats out and when they are done we are done...of course does not work quite as well for us who use pellets so ten lots of pellet feeds....personally I dont use this but if that helps you more than looking at the watch then maybe enough for 20 treats? usually about 1/2 a bum bag - so when you are down to half then you know to stop. Your social engagement with her is allot less than it is with Carlotta and this tells me you are worried for yourself - I know you are saying you are not though - one thing at a time - so I would prefer to work on manners - standing still and moving around her and she does not turn to follow you when you click and treat - you are still feeding close to your body but not as close (you have changed hands hahahaha). what does she love to do that is calm?
OMG....
I really don't know how to feed any further away than that, as my arms at not longer
Looks like I have to redo it from scratch. Yes, I could feel her frustration.
OK, no pointer and just standing still and walking around her and very short sessions.
Hm, not sure what calm stuff she likes. She loves action, like playing with the tyre and the pedestal, but that won't help.
As you have seen, I have worked on her standing still with me in neutral at her side and clicked for that. Would that be a good thing to build up for more duration?
She also likes touching cones.
Gosh, I never had so many "problems" with a horse. And apparently it's all of my doing sigh Carlotta: I hadn't ridden her in the paddock for over 4 years, and she was insecure and grumpy about it. I hope it will improve over the next times.
About the 20 treats for Valeta: what if at treat 20 it's not a good moment? Stupid question maybe, as if it is, I shouldn't click, eh?
And it really, really is difficult to be further away from her. Maybe we should work behind a fence?
To start with.
Oh, and what hand do you want me to feed with? Alex used to say inside hand, if I remember correctly, but you once mentioned outside hand. So, when I stand at her left, right hand or left hand? I tried a bit of from front and moving hand towards her chest, but this is very difficult with her, as she just curls up and doesn't move. But I think there was one beginning of stepping back, must check when I watch the video (didn't have a chance yet to watch them).
Yes, I know that there is less social engagement with her, must be due to the fact that I become pretty frustrated each time we interact.
as I said with her standing still you are leaving it too long to click - hahahaha - you dont want to build up more duration yet...we want less - but until her manners are right she will turn to you when you click and that defeats the purpose. You need to present the food and take a step towards her with your arm reaching to her chest. Yes I had said to you to use the cone example for head down that I have in the workshop. what is happening is that you are not recognising what she is doing when you click or take out the pointer and then you are correcting her which leaves her frustrated and you worried. if you are worried then there is something happening and you need to stop and think about it. Or watch the video. Of course IMO you are asking too much of her with the clicker before you established manners - manners is the first and most important lesson with the clicker - if she is not calm when you click, then you set yourselves up for correcting and thats not fair on either of you. There are many different ways to teach manners and I do show this in my clicker DVD. Especially Nugget as he was worrying his human also. You can begin with protected contact if thats better for you. I prefer outside hand - the hand that is furthest away from her is always the outside hand. 20 is just a rough estimate more or less it does not matter - it is just that at the moment you dont feel able to think about time so this was just another way of measuring it
Can't remember where your clicker video is. Can you refresh my memory please? When I wait for her to stand still, in the beginning I am at her side, right? Which means, if you want me to do the treat delivery with my extended arm towards her chest, I have turn around. ?
OK, will have to go waaaay back with my expectations for now, as it sounds. Like stand still and calm for 2 secs - click and treat?
Will try to find the cone vid in the course too. It was fairly at the beginning, if I remember well?
you copied the clicker DVD when I posted it to you - no idea what you did with it as you posted the one I sent you back to me. if we are just at her side just stretch your hand further than her chest - just to get you in the habit of stretchout out and knuckles are towards the sky, hand is closed and when she is calm turn your hand over and open to treat. it wont take long I promise. Yes start with 2 seconds and say stand or whatever you choose - we need to get this social engagement going - the cone video was in a coaching one - hang on
the last video in the coaching core - for marianne https://fast.wistia.net/embed/iframe/swzn3z42us
Thanks a lot. Yes, the clicker vid is somewhere, just have to find it
Watched the cone vid - yes, nice! will work this way next time, promised. Sorry for all the hickups and setbacks. Hopefully we will be on the way now.
Went out before I saw this last post and did a brief session with Valeta. I have the feeling it went a lot better than the last one, or at least slightly, hahaha.
Next time, I will incorporate your above hints and demos.
I feel a bit puzzled about the extended arm when standing at her side. Will that not bump into her? Anyway, she was giving me some good tries with stepping back today, so that's a beginning. Until you feel otherwise, of course
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNDpVOtxcJ8&feature=youtu.be
this was perfect! as for being at her side she will be used to stepping back and she will but again she may not need it - but you have to be happy with this!"
and that standing at the end fantastic - so put these things on cue, dont repeat what is good so start asking for more duration touching and cue a bridging signal - for me it is xxxxxX whatever you want to use...we just want to throw in a slight bit of duration now with head down and also the standing (that is from 2 seconds start at 2 and then go to 4 and 5)
Whew...
Do you want any of those in the dropbox? yes I think both of them - it is a huge change straight away
Before and after, eh?
yep and soon we can get back to core work. Just take your time and slowly increase duration and make sure you have verbal cues and smile! it will take a couple of days but it wont take long
10 Mar 2020
Today's vids: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l2zLithn-0&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IO1C15cuMq0&feature=youtu.be
A bit too long, and I didn't do enough social interaction. Woops...
why did you wait so long to open your hand? after this you seem to be asking too much of her before you open your hand, just a lean back away from you is enough and you are turning your hand around the wrong way - as you take the treat out of the bag knuckles up and then when you give it to her turn your hand around, again you are asking for too much (I assume you want her lips to stop moving) too soon. that was good at 3.10. See your waiting with your hand is teasing her just back open hand and treat. When you practice standing still dont ask her to move back if she is standing quietly for a treat - the back is when there are manner issues. This was not bad though but try not to will her - a few times at the end she was not interested but you wanted her to do what you wanted her to do LOL - autonomy??? see if she can walk and stand with you - something new for her - be back later if I can for the other
Must get my hands organized, I agree. I notice now that I often started with my fist turned fingers up.
I had in mind that you had said "wait until she is calm, then give her the treat". That's why I waited while she was mouthing and fumbling around and gave it to her only when she stopped doing it. And I find she is getting the idea.
I had also started introducing standing at her side when treating, which she had a few difficulties with, but not too bad. So, let's sum up:
I only use the backing if she shows "bad" manners, all the other time, I just feed her in this position.
I make sure that my fingers are turned downwards, when I bring the treat towards her, then immediately turn them upwards and give her the treat, even if she is mouthy. Right?
Will try the walking with me and standing. I have the feeling that she is getting the hang of it (sortof).
I also started with a bit of duration (xxxx) for head lowering, did I do this correctly? Will see how it goes tomorrow with all this in mind.
Maybe try it without the cone. But I have to introduce the different voice cue first.
yep yep yep all good but it was a good session just a few tweaks
11 Mar 2020
yep it is good to have it all in one place
Nice session this morning.
Early in the session she accidentally grabbed my fingers with her teeth. Ouch! But huge improvement since last time, I feel. Manners have taken a quantum leap to good, she is much calmer all in all. Back to paddock, once I unhaltered her, I stood quietly at her side, and she stood equally quietly, then I clicked, and her head stayed in position, no mouthing at all. Wow!
Ok looking forward to it ...
yeah for you - see I told you it would not take long - did you find the clicker USB or do you want me to send it back to you?
We introduced "down" as HL cue, she is beginning to understand. There was one moment where she swung her bum a bit, I think she felt slightly overwelmed and needed relief. Maybe I am wrong, but it felt just like a little thing.
Didn't have time to look, will let you know.
yes the bum turning can be this as well - all explained in my DVD!
Goody.
She didn't push this time, just a slight touch.
I hope that my reflex reaction to the teeth didn't do any damage, but I think she got the message
I shouted Ouch- that hurt. Dammit! Nothing else
I will be at the post office tomorrow if you want me to send it back to you - it is still sitting on my desk LOL - yes no pushing is great, whatever the reason she did it - as it works for her, now and again it will happen - oh we cannot do that with the teeth I would not worry about it Ya gotta admire my self control, hahaha.
yep - it is always an accident - they dont really like fingers to eat
I had a horse serious bite me once, and I know the difference! I have dried breadcubes for "mini jackpot", that tastes better than fingers
hahaha - not a fan of feeding bread to horses - I am actually going to start these two on rosehips vital when it arrives - I am seeing so many good things about it - so the joint food I have them on now is not bad but my gut tells me this may be better for them - speak later
I suppose you don't want Carlotta's last CA vid in the dropbox?
I have not had a chance to look at it - I am looking for a good one to show in the workshop will let you know when i see it
Still working on it
Here is today's:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEQeY9PwOKk&feature=youtu.be
OK, so some of the reason she was showing signs of regression with the pawing is that you took too long to take the first cone off and suddenly make the other appear LOL- also we need to take longer at the big cone by increasing duration here slowly - I notice you are treating very close to your body again (but it gets better) - I am a little confused as to what it is you want from her - she touches the cone, you dont click she does it again, you dont click but then when she knocks it over you click. Yeah you kind of did more than yell when she bit you and you kept at her even when she moved back - and the pointer was used as a whip..(and we have all been there) - this is actually a direct result of you feeding so close to your body and reinforcing the mugging - this is why for her and you I had suggested that there is the step back that then eventually will be just a lean back but at least on arms length away her nose was in your bag and you fumbled with the treats so then she did not want to wait any longer - but then she picked at your jumper - this is all because of the close feeding. I can feel your anger with the next couple of clicks - so when this happens it is best to walk away - I am a little worried that she is being quiet here because she is worried what is going to happen next - that first touch after it happened looked more like an appeasement behaviour ...something that she thought you might like to take the pressure off her, but it gets better when she gets confidence again. I did not say anything about you using the pointer for the target yesterday as it was handled well - and you were using it as a pointer not a target, but you are now asking her to target the pointer again and this is not going to work for you as she will go back to bad habits and once you move around she will target the pointer (2.40) - we have to be meticulous here. So with the cones I feel there is too big a jump between the first and the second - I would suggest we need to spend more time on the large one and get some duration and use voice cues so it will get you out of the pointer use (because I know what she will do with it when you are walking as she sees it as a target - so think about what the cones are there) - a slower gradient would be better - you can get all different sizes at bunnings or a work safety shop if you have them there. You see here at 3.05 she is reaching for the pointer and coming very close to you again - yes for sure she is getting better but we need to fix the habits that are coming back into play and for a while it did not look like you were having fun ..if this happens you need to listen to yourself - if you are not enjoying it and smiling it is best to find a good moment and leave it. Now also think about standing still - it is just that - it is an active movement to stand (not stand and target the actual pointer) - I am being picky so to stop those old habits - is she better than she was? for sure ...and this is great, but remember to concentrate on being consistent with the new cues because it can fall apart as she will become frustrated. I can see you started to let things go so well done for that and this was around the time she was unsure and walked back into you a little. Now also remember about stimulus control - if you do not ask for a head down then you dont click for her doing it - wait and then ask again so she has an opportunity to get a click and a treat - kind of like LRS focus 2 seconds then ask - see if we can build up SATS here as head down , when she touches the target then soon all you will need to say is head down. Then for duration it will be head down xxxxxX or use touch for a touch and head down ..relax for duration with Carlotta and her core, if you see her neck being used then try to see what happens if you put the pointer down near her chest so as at the shoulder and then instead of asking her to turn her head to the side move it to the front as she is activating - Or use your outside hand to drop her head a little - I will try and get something on video, as one of the first things I always make sure of with core work is that they are not using their necks and the more we click this the harder it becomes to get it fixed - So I will try and get these here to use their neck and see what I can work out - another thing comes to mind is that my two know 'head' and head means for them that they relax their jaw and stell a little ...I have to think about whether I actually used this cue as well LOL (probably did as nothing is quiet when i am with them). 2.11 is where I would click (just before she starts to hang on with her neck)...but the shoulders are lifting for sure - can I suggest also that you do not worry about the hocks bending - her neck is more important to 'fix'. But you are definitely getting the hang of the pointer - you still need the imagery though - imagine you are 'pulling' her shoulders up (so the pointer does not stay at that height it gets higher intially)
12 Mar 2020
Absorbed all your yesterday's suggestions and observations. Yeah, true, I always give much room for improvement...
Full of good will to do it right this time, but in the heat of the moment, I still forget things or get carried away. Ah well...
Oh, wanted to let you know: there seems to be a breakthrough with Carlotta: she now comes to me in the paddock and wants to be part of the game. She seems very interested in getting her turn and play with me too. This feels wonderful, now that it happens on a regular basis.
So, for Valeta: I tried to go back a step or two, as you suggested. Left the pointer out, so I won't inadvertantly use it for targeting, hehe.
I used the voice cues (combined with some pointing and body). Touch for touching and head down for HD. During the touches, I tried to invite Valeta to follow my finger down towards the bottom of the cone, then saying head down.
She later offered some head down on her own, and I forgot a few times to do LRS and ask again, oops. Also a couple of badly timed clicks. Oops again.
We then did some direct head down cues which she did quite nicely. If you are happy with it, I will add some duration.
Now, I better go out and try to have a brief ride, it's so hot already, dang. The CA session with Carlotta had its difficulties, as usual.
this looks allot better and you are becoming more fluid with your tread giving - yes try to remember not to click when she paws but we can also put the verbal cue on touch if she touches without you asking and you accidently click - it is better to say it after than not at all and just click. The pointer being used as a pointer is allot better for you if you can trust yourself as I dont like seeing her mouthiness with your hands. So this was good - now 2 mins is far enough with doing this - she started to get bored and this is when she showed some of her regressive behaviours - see she will go back into her learning and try things that worked for her in the past (even trying to get free treats). One way you can do this is to walk to different cones ask her to touch and then change the walking pattern. Do you recall the video with Sharney doing this? I got your USB posted back to you this morning, I could not get out as Sharney was not well, but hub was going to drop it in the box. So do what you did for a minute or so - if you have more cones walk with her around them and ask her to touch. I would not yet ask her for duration until we are sure she knows what touch is - then we go touch she lifts her head after she touches and you say touch again and then click treat and start adding your bridging signal to the one you dont click glad to hear that Carlotta seems happier
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9NpfSAtZ2s&feature=youtu.be
Now that I said this, she got a fright this arvo from my flapping vest on the fence and jumped backwards. I decided it was a good idea to go to the arena and let her do a bit what she wanted. She stood and looked into the distance for a while, while I sat on the pedestal. When I just decided to stop, as I had to go, she suddenly slowly walked towards me. Lots of praise and back to the paddock....
That's a great idea to add the verbal cue when she touches on her own decision and I accidentally click. I like this solution
Yes, I have 2 big cones and half a dozen small ones, so we can walk around them and touch. Tomorrow..
And I will try to shorten the sessions. Maybe I should really put less treats into the pouch, LOL.
yep that is much better with Carlotta- you will get her beginning without her neck soon enough. Just remember with cones we want to change the pattern every so often - Valeta needs to be challenged a little
Yes, that would be good. Like walking in the other direction and change cones often? If not challenged, se get bored easily and invents her own entertainment
Would be wonderful to finally get it right with Carlotta's CA.
Oh, I also have these little flat "cones", a whole lot of them. Can use them as well. Maybe you noticed one under the small cone in yesterday's vid.
I hope the delay for the case study (because of having to add the bacics) isn't a problem for your plans.
no it is not an issue Steinar needs more firecrackers up his arse for a bit in any case - yep the little discs are fine if she can see them
what you need to do is play around with this and when your eyes become automatic then we can move back to the core work - so a few things - if she starts getting a little full of herself then go and play with the walking and targeting, now and again stopping and asking for a longer touch (remembering the extinction process: she will become manic and revert back to the last thing that was highly reinforced) - you will tip it too far if she starts mugging you and pawing as this is regression - again what worked for her in her history. Keep sessions short as there is less chance that these things will happen. Use your pointer if you can trust yourself to use it as a pointer rather than you bend down with your head in a vulnerable position
Fri 13 March 2900
Hot and windy this morning, and when I got in the saddle, the rain started pouring down, so I had to take the camera off the fence. No filming today.
But when I took Carlotta back to the paddock, I did a little bit of walking with Valeta, then stopped and stood at her side. Then gave voice cue for head down and pointed downwards. After a brief hesitation, she lowered her head. We only did 3, and the last time she got her nose close to the ground for about 2 secs.
2 seconds is great
Sat 14 March 2020
Just loading today's into Dropbox. I managed to do only 3 minutes, LOL. Valeta is still a bit hectic here and there, but it feels so much better now. Didn't work on duration today, just the cone touching and head down. She is in general also much calmer when I approach her and halter her. Standing still nicely often by now.
great
you have to be happy with that - yes she is allot calmer and for the most part did not even think about going to your bum bag - great work - but really that was not a game of touching cones that was a game of collapsing cones ...lets see how may are still standing!
we probably are collecting enough for a clicker case study LOL
She always enjoyed knocking them over, LOL. We are lucky that she didn't pick any up this time
Feel free to use them for whatever you wish.
I can always use the little flat thinggies, if that makes you more comfy. They should be a lot more difficult to turn over or picked up. But with Valeta, I am sure she will find a way nevertheless. yep just put it on cue if she does pick them up. Oh ta, I really need to get finished what I need to finish off first and then yes I am thinking - have done little today as I am so angry about my friend who was going to two concerts with me - I asked her last night to think about whether (if they are not cancelled) does she want to go and she sent me a message today that she wont go - and hope that I get someone to take the tickets! so easy to say when she has not yet paid me for them
no it is fine with the cones - it will be a good exercise for you to demonstrate discriminative stimulus
Discriminative stimuls? Never heard that before.
yes you want to discriminate between one cue (touch) and another (pick up)
Ah, OK. Can do.
Sun 15 march 2020
k ta - I think I am going to have to do a new one soon but just cannot get my head space going until Kayce tells me she is ready for the webinar - I may have to ask Steinar as I really need one before I finish it
Took several vids today. 3 of Valeta. Sorry, got carried away (again) with the second one, made it too long. But the third one is good, just 1 minute, as she got the "pick up" and did a very good one!
Will send you the ones of Carlotta in youtube. Still not much success. And there was so much going on in the surroundings: neighbour has lots of visitors who crawled all over the place. And the other neighbour let the horses into her big paddock, and there was a lot of hefty running around from them, and a big herd of roos hopping behind. So I gave up...
The 2 Carlotta vids: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uqW20A8Ji0&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERRmyjmB1Eo&feature=youtu.be
Mon 16 March 2020
the first one with Valeta is great you have to be happy with how she is going - BUT you can see her attention span is only a couple of minutes so you need to see that when she walks away or does not 'hear' the click or wants to eat the sandy grass in the arena we need to move to something else - so I think she is good enough now to try some core work again when she begins to lose her focus? if you want her to pick up things be very clear with a cue or you will create a monster - but her manners were great
hahahaha great conversation you had with her - OK so this first one, dont wait so long to click - so before she starts using her neck so lets focus for a couple of days on clicking for lifting shoulders make sense? lets pretend she has never done this before and also try not to click her when she stands still - you rely on the clicker too much - so even when she lines up - we want to click if she relates the lining up to a crunch - if she is swatting a fly and she happens to put her leg down more square we dont click for it for her - if you ask and she does it then click - she is bored and the click does not mean anything to her because she gets them for doing nothing - so lets use a bridge when she does something you like....so 'are you ready' should mean to her to square up - it doesnt so think about this as the first bridge - if she does not square up then ask with SATS and then click this and then ask for her to lift her shoulders - so if we follow this sequence we will eventually get are you ready means squaring and then if you like you can click this for a while but we want eventually: are you ready...good and lift Yes click treat
see here in the second one at .48 - you are rewarding the full sequence and it is lift front foot and then back - for a while now I was puzzled with her constant lifting of the back foot I think it has been captured in the chain now - so 'are you ready' to her is meaning front foot and then back foot as you are clicking this ...look at .54 she lifts her front leg...the back one is harder to work out as there are flies but when it is in a sequence front then back I suspect it is a chain. The reason I would suggest to pretend we are beginning as if she does not know this is because of what we see at 3.00 and I think there will be an extinction process and thats fine, so this is why we take the smallest micro changes for a while to avoid frustration. 2.14 no later to click but after this you ask for her neck to come down but she is not using her neck there hahahahaha..it was actually a really good engagement of the core. So leaving it the way you did and ask for her head to come down meant that she was not sure what to do so she reverts back to something that she always gets clicked for (extinction process) and this is the leaning back and unfortunately this is what she got the click for.
Generally also be prepared to change your plan - Carlotta looks bored and she is constantly looking around - sometimes for sure something is exciting like the roos, but my gut feeling is that she is not enjoying this, so shorten these up and even go for a run and then come back and try another - my horses love to do their crunches and are always wanting to show off and nicker when they are doing them - if it is not fun then I would want to work out why....I feel for her it is a mix of clicking for 'ordinary' things; allowing her to lean back like she is and I really cannot see the benefit to horses to do this; and as she is not feeling effort in the correct parts of her abs then the actual movement itself is not a 'feel good' movement - so this is why if you think that we are doing this again in a different way (the lift at the shoulders) we can slowly extinguish the other way without frustration but you are getting close to creating the same chain with the shoulder so what we want to focus on is very small micro movements NO rock back
yes, but it's so difficult. I tried something new today, i.e. putting foot on lid. You won't like it much, as it used a bit of pressure and release, but I am sending you the vids anyway, as I added a couple of tries of CA, clicked very quickly. I only succeeded partly, but hopefully you will find it at least a start.
Valeta was more hectic today (extinction bursts?), and I did some badly placed clicks, but again, trying very hard... it is loading up in the Dropbox now.
Took Carlotta to the middle paddock and she wasn't overly amused to have to do a lot of fairly vivid gaiting for 15 minutes (wet saddle blanket). But we also threw in a couple of laterals, backing, and above all lifting in walk. She then offered me a trot with lift by herself, so we ended on that. She was a lot less grumpy this time and even didn't get worried when Valeta came thunderin from behind at a gallop along the fence lince.
Just had a look at the Valeta vid. Geez, I noticed that, within 2 clicks, I taught her to lift her hind leg when I asked for a CA...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2GbFC0U43A&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-iV-C5w9b0&feature=youtu.be
And in the shorter Carlotta vid, I missed her second CA and didn't click for it. Bugga!
hahahaha with the hind leg! but yes it is good that you can see this - will look at them tomorrow - but will try and see them shortly
with Valeta good! just remember your LRS at 1.50 when she tries to mug you. I really dont like this lifting as we are seeing mugging again as a result but you need to put it on cue if this is what you want to do - handing a cone to her and clicking and treating creates an issue as your hand is there as well. Your call but I am not into tricks with horses as I think it is demeaning and horses are not dogs. But if you want to go down this path you have to move away and have her place it in your hand - of course without a cue we cannot get touching of the cones anymore either ...not sure what was happening for you to click when you were trying to get some core activation but if you are going to look at her wither you will lose opportunities - we need to look at the shoulder. Her mugging is back and I feel it is because of the cones in her mouth and you placing them near her mouth with your hands
Valid points! I originally started this because of your suggestion. But I am not really into this either. More than happy to drop the whole matter.
So, for the CA: if you say don't look at her withers, but her shoulder, do you mean the point of her shoulder, i.e. in front?
towards chest?
I should know by now... I can see you roll your eyes
the shoulders - you are facing her withers and looking there not her shoulders - turn yourself around
I learned long ago that the shoulders are the long bony stretch between the withers and the front point of the chest, so quite an area. Thus my confusion when you talk about shoulders
Anyway will try again tomorrow and hope the mugging will go away once the cones are eliminated. Maybe you can still make use of those cone vids for the clicker case study
only the really big ones
just look towards the shoulders - this is the cervical vertebrae
so tell me why you want Carlotta to put a hoof on a tin lid? (tetanus screams at me)? that first core was good and can you see that she started to lick her lips before you treated - I have not seen this before in her AND this is what we want - will look at the other tomorrow
Tues 17 March 2020
in this second one you are not focusing on her posture - remember it is are you ready or something like this and the front legs cannot splayed out like they are - a line from the shoulder down the leg - but after the first you fixed this - they were not bad the one you did on the other video was allot better. It just seemed that with the ones on the second video she wanted to go back first. I might be wrong but it could be that this is the cue she has picked up so I went back to the first video and we can see differences in what you are asking and think the cues for her that you need are in the first video for a little while - so asking her if she is ready and SATS and then as you are in the first video - you are using your hand to 'attach' and lift the shoulders and your pointer is at the front (not at the chest where there will be a temptation to go back and not up) - but the pointer is asking her to look at this - which keeps her head down a little and small micro lifts at first - make sense? also this forces you to look in her direction and not at her as much
Some years back, I invented a cute little game with Don Carlos, Carlotta's older brother, which was to step on a paint lid on an "invisible leadrope"
We both enjoyed it very much, and it gradually developped into doing it from the saddle, by just using a mental picture to ask for it. He was wonderful with this kind of work/games and I just thought I might try it a bit with Carlotta, who after all is his full sister
The lid was the first thing that I found in the shed, needed something small. It can of course be replaced by anything else, like a small wooden board or such. Can't see why it would scream tetanus, there are no sharp edges on it.
Alex' Why would you leave me game gave me the idea.
Today: you were right, I have created a monster with Valeta. She was very pushy and mouthy again. I might have to put her behind a barreer for a while. I am uploading the first video now. Then I had the stupid idea to try to improve things a bit before stopping, and this led to even more mugging and us both getting annoyed. And it was way too long (7 minutes).
Greg has now installed me a video editing programme (Avidemux). It was very lengthy for him to get it done, due to system probs, but he succeeded. I tried it out and it works, so I can from now on send you the vids with the useless beginning and end removed.
Saw your suggestions and advice for Carlotta only after I came back in, so they are not in today's vids. Will try to remember everything tomorrow. But I think she did quite well today. Still some back tendency, but I hope I will be able to get this better, once I do things right myself. Boy, why do I have so many difficulties with this...
But the session had a happy quiet feel about it, which we both enjoyed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icwmQi-YQiA&feature=youtu.be
I can send you the long video of Valeta if you wish, but you wouldn't even want to see it, I bet
I will reread all your wonderful suggestions several times, so they will stick for the next session
And thank you so much for all your patience with my slow learning curve!
Valeta was not as bad as she was initially though I would prefer to see all her videos as we may have to tweak depending on what I see but really just go back to the beginning again - here in this excerpt there is extinction going on and eye has your hand LOL. I dont mind when they are in dropbox if there is the beginning and end as I am not looking at it on line so easy to FF
with Carlotta that was good at .28 and a perfect click at .44..I would have clicked at 1.13 - she was perfect at 1.20 (click then) we dont want her to go through the extinction process - now these tries are extinction (better than regression) but you left it a little long - I want micro tries so she does not get frustrated...these are great - think about what I suggested and see if you can combine that with this again - so a bit of this and a bit of that - but yes this is looking allot better
with Carlotta that was good at .28 and a perfect click at .44..I would have clicked at 1.13 - she was perfect at 1.20 (click then) we dont want her to go through the extinction process - now these tries are extinction (better than regression) but you left it a little long - I want micro tries so she does not get frustrated...these are great - think about what I suggested and see if you can combine that with this again - so a bit of this and a bit of that - but yes this is looking allot better
Yes, I knew that 1.13 was good, but I had missed it already. Will try to time my click better from now on.
Wed 18 March 2020
can you slow down Carlottas power trot more than this?
OK so saw the full one of valeta - I think just go back to what we were doing, it would take long to remind her of the rules (and the more you do it the more you will remember them) - just a couple of minutes - go back to the large cones only touch click and treat (the way you were doing it) - stand still even make this a game - as it will keep her mind on the job - so large cones only - even if there is only two - go and touch (point with the pointer but do not click her touching the pointer only the cone) - next cone touch click and treat; then next cone stand still for 2 seconds click treat - back to next cone - one or the other - put touch on pointer and verbal cue, put stand (2 seconds only) on stand still yourself - body cue (and withdraw pointer) and a verbal cue. ONLY play with this for a couple of minutes - then go for a run or play with her or whatever makes her feel good - the tyre - then come back to the cones and go again - just mix it up at the cones (this is the cognitive training that she needs) - BUT you have to be consistent and NO picking up things and NO touching of your hands as a target LOL - after the second run through play again and finish - hope there is more than 2 cones - or you could also use the tyre to target as well or to stand near so there are three objects - if you have only 2 large cones
ohh it WONT take long to remind her not would LOL
LOL, I figured that out. OK, will try, but she knocks them over almost each time. When I ignore this, I bet I will get anger from her. If I find something heavy to touch, would that be a better option, like a biggish stone?
Carlotta: this was over a month ago, and I never seemed to get a video from her doing a decent one. Yes, she can do very collected and slow ones, but not at the moment, it seems. Right now, she does normalish trots (very rattling), then goes into power trot, but not very collected. It comes and goes. I must say that at the moment, I feel a bit uncomfy (physically) with it, as my back often hurts and trotting doesn't improve this, especially the power trot. So I tend to aks for corto at the moment and only brief snippets of trot, when she happens to offer them. Weirdly, she doesn't seem to interpret a normal trot cue correctly, but still needs to do a brief canter skip to be able to trot. So, when I do a mini variation of a canter cue, i.e. just putting outside leg minimally back and say trot, she does. We won't win a flowerpot with this in a dressage comp, bahahaha. If ever she does a really good one, I hope I will have the camera ready!
lets just see what happens, if you go back to clicking as soon as it looks like she will touch (as if this is new - it is new as we are now touching not mouthing) she will get the idea yea you actually looked a little unseated in the saddle with this one
Just bought a biiiig cone! Will get started tomorrow.
I think it's about 80 cm high. You will see it tomorrow.
Too funny who Carlotta offered me trot all the time today. She apparently finds it less strenuous than the corto (gait), but her mum prefers corto in the paddock. And it works well for wet saddle blanket. Will see whether I can get Valeta's session in some time this arvo, but it's hot and muggy and rain predicted for later, so not sure.
yep they tend to offer one thing forever and then finally they go onto something else
I am eyeballing passage and piaffe, but maybe I won't be able to get there, as I find her very elevated trot pretty tiring for my back.
hahahaha do it on the ground
Um yes, that's an idea again, voice and body cue Means more work... yep
Those darn march flies must go away one day, dangit! They are such a pain this year. No wonder poor Valeta is so sh*tty. I think they have a good part in it. I am spraying Carlotta's legs with Flyaway before riding, maybe I should do this with Valeta too before the play sessions.
yeah I forget I will try and remember - it is hard as my anxiety has come back and it is hard to get any food and I panic if both of us got it and were hospitalised who will look after everyone - simply I would have to refuse treatment we have not had march flies for years here Lucky you, they are monsters around here, and we have them every year for 2 to 3 months.
Oh, you poor girl, I am so sorry to hear this. Isn't there a friend who can come and look after your animals, in case of such a scenario? Pity I can't do it - so far away. I have a few friend around here who could help, if we both were out of action. But we will just have to wait what the future brings, I suppose. I still think that we who live in the country, have better chances to get away without catching it, as we have so much less contact with the outside world. Greg and I will go and get our annual flu shot now. Drs. have advised to do it earlier this year, so we will. nope have no one that can come up here. Lining up at the supermarket is the issue - we wait for over an hour to get in and there is no food anyway - otherwise we dont have contact with people. I will not risk going to the doctor this year people are not prepared to risk coming into the house if we were both down and hospitalised with the virus to feed - so it is plain and simple let jerious live at the hospital and I will do the best I can - thats all that can be done
20 March 2020
That sounds very depressing. No wonder you are getting panic attacks! Wish I could help!
Had another go with the Pixio this morning. Loading the Valeta vid into Dropbox right now. She was better, I'd say, even though she had one nip at me, must feel quite some tension with the changed conditions.
I messed up a few food deliveries again, but not too badly. And did one click of a very good try from her for HL a fraction too late, when she already started to lift her head. I am pleased to see how she offers HL on her own now.
With Carlotta, I fell into my patterns again, but her last try of CA was fairly good (and I was not in her way for once)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0uc53fq9MA&feature=youtu.be
Valeta is going well - you are starting to use the pointer as a target again though but not allot and watch your feeding sometimes she is very close to you and you are not asking for her to think about what she needs to do. You do not want the pool noodle to be used as a target - you will have the same problem later as you did with the pointer. The biting was because you are not looking at what you are doing - the bum bag was in her mouth nearly the whole time you were patting her - you have to be careful with all these things - that was your fault and the bum towards you as soon as you reacted tells me that was a temper tantrum from her - you cannot expect a horse this young to cope when there is a bum bag near her mouth LOL
bit hard to do the core work when Carlotta does not want to play - dont always feel you 'have' do to it each day.The first one was pretty good though. Yeah the last one was a good clal
oops click
OK, OK.... will try harder. I thought in the first one, Carlotta was leaning too much back. Poor Valeta, now it's her turn to have to cope with me . Will work on myself and pay more attention. Maybe I should really give Carlotta a few days off from the CA.
yes it would be good if you did not work each day on them with her - even a couple of weeks off them
you are doing fine with Valeta but you need to remember the pointer is your 'finger' the noodle will be a guide - neither are targets but lets leave the noodle and work a little on core work with Valeta with manners in mind?
OK, will giver her a big break
I have the feeling that with all my fumbling and needing to improve I am holding you up in your project. Sorry, really sorry.
OK, will give it another shot tomorrow.
no dont worry - it is real life and not everything will be used and i think it is good to actually show how quickly the horse can recover back to manners when us humans are not always thinking - see the more you practice and the more you remember what to do it will get into your automatic memory. Also I am not really doing anywhere near the work I am supposed to be doing on my half finished stuff I just wish I could focus!
but Steinar is going to do an audio webinar with me for the workshop - lets hope he said yes and he will call me sunday to work out what I want
I never felt so stupid and ineffective in my whole life than with this back-and-forth-muddle with Valeta!
Who said that there is eventually always a horse in your life that shows you your limits?!? Thanks for encourageing me, so hopefully we will get there soon. I still regret so much that you can't come and work with us - it would fix everything in no time at all, I am sure
Nope you are not stupid or ineffective clicker training is not easy - and it is good that we have a horse who can show us where to grow - I have had plenty and Star is sure one of those
BUT even if I was there, you need to learn what is important for her and you together - I might have a great time, but this is the rub this is why I hate trainer intervention - it is better for you to work through what you need to do to get that automatic memory going
also remember she is better than she was and today she was able to show you very clearly the issue it was the first time we could actually see the reason for the butt - this is good this is confidence and autonomy
21 Mar 2020
Yes, of course, I have to work it out myself, but I found in the past that I learn a lot better when I have my instructor with me for a couple of hands-on lessons
That gives me the little nudge that opens to quantum leaps occasionally.
sure but it will be fine this way and you are already doing so well
Yes, Valeta is getting better. But... she tried to bite me just before the butt thing, and that, to me, is totally unacceptable. I did control myself though and only told her what I thought of it.
no you need to look at the video you had the bum bag in her face - you cant expect any horse to have that much self control
Oh thank you. It feels like piaffing on the spot at times and not much progress, but let's hope we are on the way now.
I will look again. Maybe I will use your bag for a while until I have mastered my position better. hahahaha - it was an 'accident' waiting to happen I was saying oh no as I was watching it LOL in fact ROFLMAO - the other thing you can do if you feel you have enough dexterity you can put the bum bag behind you - but you would have to be able to get the treats out as quick
I watched that part again, and several times in slow motion. Hmmmm.... what I see is that the bum bag was in her face, because she kept turning her head into me so closely. A thing she does very often. I suppose I am not consistent enough with insisting on her holding her head straight or turning her nose away a bit.
Will try with your bag hanging on the "outside" and see how that goes.
I feel she should be advanced enough by now to be able to wait a second or two for the treat delivery.
All my other horses never had any difficulty with this, so it is really hard to deal with her
yes but if she comes forward to you - you need to ask her to step back that did not happen that time - so what happens is that as she was not getting the treat is is like a mini extinction process, if she cannot get you to turn on the vending machine then she will resort to what worked before (as a reinforcement history - now the more we feed slaphasidily the more it becomes the norm for the horse). So she still could not get what she wanted so she got frustrated and bit - this is normal (not that she is any different to any other horse) - we need to avoid this happening
It does make sense.
it is you who needs to work on consistency - she is a very young horse and them more we make mistakes about treating the more she will think that this is the norm - this is why I am so so so picky about treating
Yes, and I really appreciate your patience and persistance
she was going so well but you can see for her at the moment until she has better control of her emotions (which comes with maturity) we cant ever let our guard down with treating
Duh!
the other thing you can do is use different treats - so even some of those hygain smootchies that can be in your pocket rather than in a bag - this slows down the treat delivery and also they are no t in eye site (i.e. bum bag)
Yes, I actually thought about this this morning. Means I need to wear a jacket, which is not a problem.
havent you got an inside pocket?
I do this for Carlotta when riding. For other reasons, i.e. that with that safety vest, I couldn't wear a bum bag. It has one pocket with a zip, so that works. And I use a lot less treats when riding by now, and much more social interaction instead.
No, the only pocket I have is that tiny thing on my joddies. In summer, that is. In winter I do have pockets.
OK - so if you counted out 20 then you will also begin to self regulate yourself (especially with Carlotta on the ground)
Oops, time for brekkie. No Pilates today, covid19 striking again.
aghh I am still deciding if the hair dresser is safe - I believe with her measures she is but we shall see they may be told to shut soon
Usually I have 10(ish) in my pocket when riding. I break the Smoochie hearts in two.
Ok I must try some again for Star could not risk them with Sharney Yes, should be safe.
These Smoochies are really great. Horse crack, as Joanne calls them.
yes it is the #fenugreek in them
Aaah, I was wondering what that miracle herb was that makes them love it so much. yep never seen a horse turn down fenugreek
Today went fairly well (I think). Just a few minor glitches. She was good for coming in paddock, haltering, working, then haltering and leading back to paddock. I started to introduced my cue for Carlotta to be allowed to lower her head and eat some grass.
Vid is up in Dropbox. 17 treats handed out
now remember we do not click for exploring as this is SEEKING - we also do not want to train our horse to touch and target everything they see - well thats my view but if you want to do this (e.g with the hoop) then you will create this targeting monster and it will dampen the need to SEEK (intrinsically) - so for me personally a cone is to touch, maybe a hand if there is a need and it is safe (but taught AFTER the horse has emotional control). So remember to cue even after she touches if you want her to target.
Now this is looking good though - a thought - dont 'wait' for her to catch up to you - go to the cone and ask/ cue and wait at the cone..we need to make this a game - up the energy to help her have manners in the new 'environment'
watch the SATS though in core first - now she went away as she was bored - you have two options (it will change if the energy is upped a bit now though) - get a good thing to leave it on and finish up - or work on the core where she stands - but look at her being able to stand near you - this is going well (but I am going to be really picky look how far out her front legs are when you ask for core activation?)
So a little higher energy around the targets - if there is nothing to tweak move on to SATS and core work - and shorten the time - but this was great - her manners were lovely
22 Mar 2020
Ooh, and when I watched it myself, I thought: u-ooh, feeding too close to my body again now and then
All very interesting. Will try to put it into application. Yes, when I asked for CA, I noticed that it wasn't right because of the leg position and then she backed up instead of standing still. Maybe practicing more quiet standing still before asking again?
But she is trying very hard, isn't she
Yes for the SEEKING. Really must remember this! I threw in the hulahoop because I thought she might like to play with it. Then without really thinking, asked her to touch it
Raining at the moment, but hopefully this arvo.
Can I click her when she tries to pick it up? In earlier years, I loved it when horses figured out how to throw the hoop over their head so it came around their neck. Yeah, I know, you don't like trick training, but I love doing it occasionally
it is your call if you train the picking up - you have be very consistent with a cue from the beginning - then then can discriminate
I thought about letting her play with it without cue and figure it out herself.
if you do that you will have her picking up everything
OK. so better not!
you saw what happened with the small cones LOL
That's a point. Will ban the hula until we have emotional control at least! yep thats what I would do
okeydokey
23 Mar 2020
Good morning Julie. Today's vid is in your Dropbox. Sorry, it got a bit lengthy, as Valeta chose to eat, then look at neighbour's running horses. She felt nice and calm. Still a bit worried with me at her side and tends to step backwards, but getting better slowly. I tried to rest the pointer on her back and she did stop after a couple of steps.
HI Yvonne, I noticed it is coming through but I have had to pause it as I do not have enough speed to do what I am doing and also let that download. I will try and get it downloaded soon but it takes roughly about 2-4 hours LOL
So much more polite
ok so that sounds good
No problem, take all the time it takes. I am just trying to do the videoing in the morning, as things tends to come in between during the day.
yep I know it is like that here but the opposite LOL
Quarantine is starting to feel here too, as Chris doesn't want to drive her float around anymore, so can't come and pick Carlotta up for a trail ride, as planned. Never mind, there is always the middle paddock
24 Mar 2020
gee that first treat delivery was great she went back without being asked. So remember if she gives you the signs there is something better than you to be amused by accept it, do something yourself or finish up, or do something else which you started to do at 2mins. Your use of the pointer is getting really good also. I would have clicked at 3.15 just as the muscle movement was happening - see the reason she first put her head down is because you have used this same cue for head down - it will begin to confuse her so take the pointer from behind her to the wither - not from the front - you taught her initially to lower her head with pressure and then you moved to lifting your hand up (which is a threat of pressure) - in neither case you used a voice cue so she cannot discriminate now you need to do something to discriminate the lifting of the pointer over the wither - she does not have enough experience to work out that this is different to head down - so just flagging this for you to think about what you would prefer to do (I would use a voice cue lift). So back to the core - you cannot leave the pointer down like this - she is already frustrated because you did not click and you should be clicking every single little muscle try before the moving back happens - I think you may be asking too much from her - so see this frustration as a signal to you that you have missed her tries or you are jumping too much ahead (which means the frustration are extinction bursts).
In SATS you need to click a little earlier - what you are doing here is capturing the backing up - so the moment that there is any leg movement - maybe about 1/2 -1 second earlier (5.49 was a good timed one though)- I reckon that bum was she wanted a rub that time maybe? yeah you have to get into the habit of moving your pointer from the ground - if you think of it as your finger you would be moving your finger out of the way after you pointed yes? Oh look at 5.49....a perfect position to try the core LOL - see these things and start to develop that language - so she starts to understand what comes before a lift. You also are forgetting your distance - look at where you are at 8.18. So dont get complacent - any time with any horse (of course I know I do sometimes as well) - at the end there when you were trying to get to her side it was because you were actually moving her back with your body - you still 'face' her and she feels this pressure so dont worry but try and remember that it is your 'energy' that is moving her back as I dont see any other signs that she is worried. I think this is really good and yes her manners are getting great - OK so the thing is that she is not interested after the first minute and I notice this with Carlotta as well (and that they both want to eat that sandy grass). I think she is now bored with the cones and we need to find something that she loves to do so she can show you what she would prefer (as that is a great hint for us to shake things up). Do you have a swiss ball? or the crazy expensive horse balls? Would you be comfortable to be more energetic and quicker in the sessions?
Thank you for all the advice. Geez, will be fun to try to remember it all during our interaction. Somehow there is always something I "forget"....
Yes, I felt a bit uncomfy about what I did with the pointer. Should I put it over my shoulder when not in use? I noticed that, when clicking, I inadvertantly and quite vividly swung it upwards at times. Not good, eh?
But I can see now when she gets a bit frustrated. Your pointers help me to be more aware what to work on, so she doesn't have to go through so many little outbursts. Shall I put in more social interaction? I notice that, now she isn't so pushy and nippy anymore, my feelings towards her become more positive and loving and it's easier for me me praise her and smile
Even started to call her sweetie and darling, haha.
Soo, new toys... hm... how about I bring out the mat again? She loves it, I think. Or the little balance pads? I have two of those balls with handles, but no big one. Also a normal football, if that helps.
I tried speeding up at times, but she didn't seem interested, just stood there and started to graze. We could also see whether she wants to step on the pedestal. Leo (my personal borzoi) is so sweet and loving, spends most of his time lying close to me in my office. Such a dear boy! I could see if I can find one of those really big inflatable balls (like 1 m of diametrer). Do you think this would be a good thing. yes the pointer personally I just put it over my shoulder (I think - I will have to remember to think about it tomorrow).
Reducing anxiety and or quitting and doing something else helps her and this is getting better and better. Maybe one of the balls with handles - I was thinking of things that created more energy so my thoughts are when she is a little too hum ha then she may play with something that is going to create more energy as she is operating at a very low level (which means boredom sinks in quicker and dopamine is left all by itself instead of increasing the good stuff).
I think a good quality swiss ball (thats what you mean) is a good idea as the horseballs are very expensive BUT you have to get the real durable one because they could bite them and bang. Hope you are OK now with your injection - I am still waiting for Stars spray to be delivered to the post office so did not go out (only want to go once) so will go now tomorrow I think the social interaction can be increased for sure but we have to find ways of getting some energy going, but it is going well Ta. Will see how she responds to playing with the ball.
Getting her to start going seems the most difficult thing at the moment. But she is so smart, she might work it out quickly. Haha, yeah, I bet she would bite at the ball, so maybe not best of choices. they are very big and if you use it to click when she pushes it, she will be fine but the real durable ones are good Or how about I try to drag a flag in front of her (at the end of my longe whip), and see whether she is willing to follow it and maybe step on it (Steinar's thinggy). Yes, OK, but it feels a bit over the top to buy such a big ball, as it would only be for a short time. I have that big cone sit in my arena now, and we used it only 3 times...
https://swissballs.com.au/products/swiss-exercise-ball-mediball-pro-55cm
But it's still OK, as I can use it for lateral work with Carlotta. the balls are great for helping build resliant horses yes you could try and little chasing the bag BUT you have to make sure there is energy and if you cant run you need to make sure the stick is long enough k I get my ball out every now and again Will have a think about it. aghhh I see another video coming on LOL Bwahahahaha Is there anything new in the course? Haven't checked since I filled in the form. nope Tues 16:53 Will leave the next vid to tomorrow. Wed 18:05 Had alovely session with Valeta, and she managed to put one front foot on the flag one, so got a big click and praise, as also chased the ball and stood on the mat and did some nice CA's, so I ended a bit early. But then noticed that the video hadn't been running. Bummer! So decided to do a very brief one with the remaining 4 treats, which is loading into dropbox right now. Why is there so often a glitch when something goes particularly well?
ahhhh! it happens all the time!
Haha, anyway, it's there for you now. it will be soon Carlotta was lovely for the ride in the paddock. And each time she offered me trot, I went into rising trot. That puzzled her big time, had never done this before
Yea
Thurs 13:55
the video was not bad with the bag but why did you stop at one? or is this the problem with the video glitch? if it was not....if she did something for a treat they do not immediately get it with one click and taking it away if she did enjoy it (and she was warming up to it) can be punishing - watch her standing posture in the core work but this was good -
the second one you could see the core lifting. So strange about the video - but you say this time you saw the camera was not running so it was not the editing program? there are glitches in all your videos now since you used this editing software - I dont know anything about it as it is an open source program and they dont run well with windows for me to test whether I can help you with it - so just send me the raw files without using the editing software and see if there is a difference.
With Carlotta....is not a rising trot OK for you? or do you mean she was more elevated and you had to rise?
I started rising trot, as my back gets pretty ouchy with longer stretches of sitting trot. Yesterday, we did this a few times, then her last trot felt very smooth and comfy, so I sat it. Yes, good point that I should not do only one game with stick and flag (or others) when she seems interested. Will try to remember next time.
Yes, I was delighted when she used her core in the second CA, but didn't notice immediately, so clicked a bit late. It looked wonderful!
Today was pretty good, IMO. I did a couple of unperfect treat deliveries and when during the last CA she shifted her weight back, I wonder whether I shouldn't have clicked this? But I suppose I should have pointed forward with the pointer instead. Vid is uploading right now into DB. And oops, I clicked when she picked up the lid, it was just so cute! But at least I put a cue on it. Before taking her back to paddock, I put her on the lead rope and asked her to step forward and on the lid instead. She got it pretty quickly, so will try at liberty next time.
grammer police - imperfect hahahahaha - just looking at the time frames for both will help work out if it is all there
so it all sounds positive - I meant to also say that when you could not get to stand on her side the second time it was because you opened a treat and put it in your pocket - the click is the timing when the treat is given can be later so you dont need to have the paper off them the more she takes the cue from the click (rather than you getting a treat) the better it will be
just waiting for the vet to arrive for their dentals and Sharney's scope - he is late and no call t o say if he is on his way
Yes, I know that the treat delivery can be a bit delayed after the click, once the horse gets the idea. I remember when at times I clicked my horse for something, then noticed I didn't have a treat, so said to her: hang on, I'll go and get one for you (inside the barn or house). And it was always fine.
Not sure what you mean by getting the paper off. At one stage, Valeta dropped the treat from her mouth, so I bent down and picked it up and gave it to her.
it looked like you were unwrapping something and then putting it into your pocket
look at you remembering everything! see using the pointer this way and thinking 'up' is actually an easier way to start this. I would have clicked when she tried to pick up the ball (as this size really can only be picked up LOL). I would either have dumped the bag and played with the ball or spent more time on the bag - but she actually was saying I want to play with the ball - remember that we are on her agenda - the only other thing I suggest is thinking about asking 'are you ready' with the core work - so each time you ask (even if you have to wait) she begins to get the cue and this may also wake up from the distractions earlier (especially when these begin to feel better) - dont always use the mat with core work - so only when she has a good crunch should we actually do it - it is fine what you are doing but as she gets better she will not have the stability to maintain it on the mat and this may put her off a little and we cannot be sure exactly how much work she is doing on the mat in the first place - but really good
Yay! We are getting there! Thanks to your ever-patient coaching!
OK, yes, should have thought about it with crunches on mat. It just felts so inviting to do it, so you will see it in today's vid again
Will try to do the CAs somewhere else from now on. Maybe take the mat away for a little while?
I forgot to turn on my wrist band (forgot what it is called), but remembered half-way through. I cut off most of the beginning, as she wasn't in the picture, of course.
She remembered my yesterday's brief explanation about putting her foot on the lid instead of touching or lifting it, so we could play with that. Yep, I need to pay more attention to what she is telling me! Duh!
I have the feeling that she is beginning to understand the process and feels a lot more safe in her body and mind now. What do you think?
Oh, and sorry for my not very ladylike comment when I noticed that I forgot to turn on the wrist band, LOL.
I am just a tiny bit "worried" about her tendency to shift back or even back up a step just after or during the CA.
In case you are wondering what she is looking for. The gardener was working in a nearby flowerbed
the little back will be fine once you take her off the mat and now and again ask for more before you click and treat but it is fine at the moment, just try and not click if she goes further than this
Just had a hot ride on Carlotta (sunny 27°C, huff puff). We went into the arena, and look, she forgot the canter cue and went straight into lots of trots. Hahaha.
trots are her thing at the moment
So we worked a bit with good trot and panther trots, which she did beautifully today, very slow and collected. Of course, no camera in sight
yep always the way
After a couple of laterals and circle work (shoulder-in, travers and renvers), I asked her for a canter again. Got trot. Um, no thanks. Asked again, and she went into a calm canter. Bingo! Click and praise and jackpot. We left it at that, as we both had sweaty brows by then.
Now, walk the dogs and then my well-earned siesta. The poor gardener is completely pooped, and he still has to go and trim neighbour's hedge. And all that with a barely healed broken rib... I was very proud of Valeta today. And told her that, of course. Felt like a quantum leap. See you later and hopefully have fun with your horsies
yes things are going great for you
I feel pretty relieved that it looks like we are finally starting to deliver what you need for the Steinar project
yes but dont worry about Steinar stuff just do it for you - wont be long now as long as you remember not to click for back first
Yep, trying hard
Today, Valeta was a bit wound up towards the end. Session must have been too long. But the rest was pretty good. I only got a couple of CA's, but one was quite nice with a bit of core engaged. No chance yet for duration.
Also filmed Carlotta, she gave me a nice ride, and there were a few pretty cadenced trots. If you want to check, they are in the middle, around 6:00, then another one around 9:00 and a nice one towards the end. Vid is still uploading. Will send it later.
Sat 15:06
you cant expect duration at this stage - it takes 6-8 weeks to teach this without having to go back and try some different options . OK so allot of anxiety in this video... so after the ball I am not sure if you are asking her to stand or to use her core? then you go to the target but at the target you ask her to lift her core - but this is confusing for her because she is right there at the target that you were asking her to touch - she is not advanced enough yet to separate this and this is why she went away (because her cues are not tight). You also are not really focusing on SATS first - this is SO important as otherwise you are not developing a consistency...are you ready? SATS LIFT - now you did the next time but you used your foot to tell her to move her leg? that's a bit dangerous for you and now you are adding in another cue for her to try and work through - unfortunately as you have not really done SATS with her to any consistency this is going to remain confusing for her until you stick to something whatever that is. at 3.02 she is not in a position to lift her core to any degree because of her front right leg - and you cannot click if she goes back - we try again and try and click earlier... see 3.13 ? she is in a perfect position and so are you ask where you are - think about taking advantage of these kinds of things - I know easy to say in hindsight - the grabbiness at 4.00 and the hype that is starting is because she did not understand what you wanted back when she was at 3.13 she was standing perfectly and expected a click and treat and she did not get one, so extinction comes in - and then she tried to play games but then some stuff that ethologically creates more angst (e.g. lifting things in the mouth which resembles play fighting) If you are going to lift things it has to be in a quiet head-space - she was wanting reinforcement for her head down so she did what has worked for her before - the mimicking of the bag the last couple of days for play - I would have just gone and played with her - But this is not working so she lifts the disk - this is really dangerous as this ethologically resembles play fighting and as she is anxious as she is going through extinction (because she did not get the reinforcement she thought she deserved with her beautiful head down and stand - which was worthy of everything) ...and now she wants to pick up the large cone - she can do this so be careful as it could end up in your head. then after this she totally lost control - and all the mugging came back - she was not doing this because it was too long, but your swap and change with everything all the time got me a little muddled- I could not keep up - tell me why you feel the need to do so many things, and only do them once or twice and then move on? So what you need to say to yourself is if she acts like this then she and you are in different head spaces - the LRS can be used or just something that she loves to do to get her back on track (that does not involve play fighting LOL). It is quite amazing how the video shows this - her head down was just perfect and as she is so young she cannot be expected to understand why this was not rewarded - like a toddler in a lolly shop and we say NO LOL
I am working on the worksheets that will be demonstrated through exercises (using Stars examples) as a video for the end on the workshop - do you want to have a go at them (still in draft form) - it may help you recognise what I am saying in a different way - and this video is actually perfect to use to turn your mind to the PV stuff? if so what is the best format to send them to you in? you cant read word docs can you or pdf? I keep forgetting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGJtepSK4WU&feature=youtu.be
yeah not sure what it is that I am looking at with Carlotta as I have no experience at 5 gaited horses except for a pace. To me she looks sore each time you ask her to canter
Gaited horses often have weird canters, like lateral ones or crossfiring. she is not cantering she is trying and cant for some reason
but honestly I cannot help you with a gaited horse I can only tell it as I see it and it may be way off - just looks like she 'cant' to me
Yes, it feels like she can't at the moment. Might leave it for a while and let her trot and gait instead.
Oops, now I made a nice mess of it with Valeta, eh?
Yes, I packed too much into it, for sure. I was wondering about clicking her for these lovely head-downs, as I hadn't asked for them. I could feel her frustration as she thought I owed her a click and treat. So maybe when she starts doing it, I add the verbal cue then click her? Maybe next time bring in only 2 toys or so and play longer with them?
yeah but why no pointer?
I had the clicker with the coil this time, thought I'd just try. So, you say: always pointer?
the pointer is a cue - one of the things I said was you have to establish cues and be consistent - pointer or not - one or the other
No worries let's try the pdf if it's not too much work. Otherwise skip on it. NOT your foot
Hahah, yes, OK. Sooorrry!
meant to also say ...and I am sure I am not the first to tell you this but you really should not be riding in these times - if you have an accident, you may not get treatment - or worse you do and you get infected
Sun 10:26
You are the first one. Well, if it happens, it will. I need to interact with my horses (and so do you, there can very well be an accident from the ground), they are my life and not riding means misery to me.
well that surprises me but many countries have now banned riding - there is a much higher risk of a serious injury riding verses ground work - but your call of course - disappointing that no one else has pointed this out to you
Wanted to say thank you for your concern and wish to help. I really appreciate it
About the higher risk for riding. I have made this decision very long ago and am very aware of it, especially since my accident over 2 years ago. But life itself is a risk and it can hit you anytime. You can slip in the shower, somebody can crash into your car, you can trio over something on the ground... whatever really. And riding is only one of the risks, and in my book not the highest one, by far.
We have done everything we can to minimise the risk to a reasonable level, like only interacting with (mind)sound horses of good breeding whom we have given a good basic education. I never ride out alone anymore (and at home only in safe environment and moderately - no crazy hooning etc.). And I always, always put on my inflatable safety vest and my hat. I don't overly like wearing them, but I always do.
And, last but not least, I am working very hard on the mindset and techniques you are teaching me, to allow my horses to become more self-confident and hapy - which should and does make a huge difference, and in a very positive way.
OK so I would get a bigger bag LOL - I use a whole chaff bag. she is now backing as you go to get the treat, so unless there is a an issue for you we would not need her to back up further - maybe now and again a reminder if needed? gee look at that at 3.13? I cannot tell for sure but are her front legs are little too far out? Was that a good idea to have the bag blowing in the wind like that LOL....OK so from the 3.13 I was not sure if all were head down or you asked for crunches - I think the wind made it really hard to work out at times but that core lift at 3.13 was great - I think she (and you) did well
as for your riding I am sure your risk evaluation did not include either not being able to get medical treatment (as doctors are too busy saving lives) or catching it yourself and not being able to pull through - different matter assessing day to day things - the assessment now should be different - but you make your own decisions - it would be remiss of me not to mention it and from what I have been told all the others I have had this 'conversation' with agree and have stopped riding - a small price to pay for their life
Yes, thought too that I can stop asking for backing, as long as all goes well. A bigger bag? I had one on before, but Carlotta didn't like it, so I changed it. But can try again for Valeta.
Must have kept a chaff bag or two.
But I find that she is getting the idea, even with the small cloth. I am not very comfy dragging a big bag around, but it you think I should...
Yes, 3:13 was lovely! So proud of her! I have worked some on SATS today, as you have seen. Will do some more until it's really good. I did ask her for a CA at 3:13, but unfortunately forgot the verbal cue. Must really remember to do that!
Maybe while I stand at her side, when she practices standing still.... And I have taken the problem with medical treatment and danger of catching the virus into account. If it was for a couple of weeks, I certainly would consider it, but to me it looks as it will be a matter of months or maybe even more. I do not want to loose so much riding time. Not sure how much time I have left anyhow where I am physically able to do it. I am not Queen Elizabeth, even though I wish I will be able to go on so long too!
I am a bit of a fatalist, I suppose, so if sh*t happens, than it will. BTW, we have private health cover, so quite a good chance of prompt treatment. And for catching the virus... it can happen anywhere really, even if it's more likely in a hospital environment.
I do appreciate you pointing out this to me though and thank you for it. Good that your friends and students have listened to you and quit riding, if it feels a good choice for them.
yes a bigger bag LOL - I am just offering advice if you feel you are immune then that is your choice I can certainly say hub here would never allow me to ride in these circumstances...ummmm no you cannot go to a private hospital - they are all closing and will be dedicated for major surgeries in the public health care system - are you keeping up with the news? private health care means nothing in a pandemic
Of course I am not immune! I am just prepared to take the risk.
Ok thats your choice but to think you have some coverage because you are in private health care is not what will happen - think about someone who may die because they choose to look at you instead - sorry if every person did what they could to minimise risk there would be less deaths
sorry but I just care about you living - there is no way that anyone will be attended to the way would hope for - there are no PPE 's anywhere - hospitals have none they are using scarves because they cannot get masks - but no more
Mon 11:48
So, obediently, I set up my dressage whip with a chaff bag. :D Pretty bulky... Valeta had a good stare when entering the arena and was a bit wound up during the session.
I tried my best to get an acceptable balance between her insistance to have earned a click and treat and what we were working on. Not always very successfully, but we both tried
it will be there in a few hours - if she was wound up then what did you do to reduce this? like say the words - did you have a look at that first pdf?
I have finally finished the draft of the conclusion and now I need to find the videos to connect the words - I am really looking forward to seeing how it works out- hard to stay that focused though Oops, really must get into that.
it may help you with how to describe what you did - there are two others also but I have not sent these to you yet
OK so when she stopped following you the first time and you went to her...tell me where was her autonomy? LOL what could you have done differently then? tell me about the click at 2.51? you did well to move her away from the bag as I could see an accident waiting to happen - but mugging is a sign of anxiety - you calmed her wonderfully but then she did it again and you clicked? Beautiful at 3.11 - her front leg a little in front but yes we want to reward these micro movements. OK for me I would never risk doing what you did with the bag when a horse is standing on it, but you got away with it and good you stopped when she showed no interest - but then as yesterday you park the bag blowing in the wind and choose to go there to do something new and ask her to remain still - this is tantamount to flooding and it is not fair on her - see at 6.57 she moves to a save spot and she was standing really well but you moved her back to the bag - she is quieter when the wind dies down and too many stimuli at the same time is just too much BUT I think the problem towards the end was that she was seeking a click and treat for grabbing the bag - you can see it in her face - and then she begins her extinction process - I have said before asking horses to pick things up at a young age creates a monster - BUTTTTTT this was really good
Yep, working on undoing the monster I created.
Needs a bit of tiptoeing, but she takes it pretty well, I'd say, when I don't reward any picking up of the bag.
Um yes, right, I should have respected her wanting to walk away at 1:35
yes but you reward picking up of the disks - you are constantly getting extinction bursts when you dont reward it
Disks? No disk in that session.
it does not matter she has been rewarded for picking things up - I warned you about this
So, should I not reward ANY picking up anymore?
Yes, you did.
Click at 2:51 for was SATS.
NO IMO but we had this conversation before and you said you want to do this as you like tricks and I said fine but you will have to always reward it and I dont like tricks but I especially do not like picking things up because there is a very fine line between this and play fight which she was showing you today - it is an ethological thing - if you put it on verbal cue you have a way to manage it but you dont puts things on cue often
yea OK there was allot of anxiety then so I would wait bring her back and then ask again
OK, will think it over again.
I did the thing with the bag under her hind feet, because she has been with bags, tarps and similar already at early age and was always very cool bananas with it. But, yes, I agree, not the wisest thing to do nevertheless....
Can see that with the safe spot. I moved her because I wanted her in better position for the camera to "see" her responses. Will leave the whip and bag on the ground from now on.
did you not have the pixio on?
Yes, I did. But when she stands diagonal to camera or facing it, you can't see very well what her back does. That's why.
Frankly, I'm not sure how to handle it with the picking up now. If I put each picking up on cue, will she not offer more and more of it? She just likes it so much.
Wouldn't it be better to use LRS? After all, I can live without teaching her tricks, when I think about it... If it creates too much anxiety and outbursts, it's not worth it and not fair to her. Haha, really, it was very good? You mean how she coped and controlled herself most of the time? Maybe, at the end, I should have clicked her for scratching the bag with her feet? I didn't and only praised her verbally, because I thought it was a kind of seeking. Whew...
She was visibly pissed off that I didn't click and treat as she expected it.
you cant use LRS to circumvent extinction. No if you put the picking up on cue the only time will be when you cue - that is what a cue is for - yes it was good until the grabbing of the bag for sure - so with the scratching of the bag - now all you need to do is move it a little and click for her movement - I am not a fan of pawing the bag - I am a fan of following it - so paw try and move it as soon as she moves towards it click
OK, thank you.
then what she sees is if I move towards it I get a click then this progresses to faster and faster and when she wants to stop the game with jumping on the bag click treat
I must admit I hate that big, bulky bag, but it seems a lot easier for her with it than with the small cloth.
I am not sure she was just as good with the large bag - you could fold in half maybe? Soo, I was expecting too much to soon... yet again.
Maybe cut half off?
unitl she runs to chase it we are still baby steps but honestly even intrinzen only do it once or twice and never again - no cutting it is dangerous because of the little fibres that leak as it moves and they go into the digestive track - just fold it and another hole
Thank you for all this. Will see how it goes tomorrow.
25 March 2020 ?
that was really good - she is starting to move with the bag so nice - the core work is coming along (just remember if you ask for front leg and you click muscle movement then do it again to get it back then ask for the core) - but she is doing it so really good and you are distinguishing cues now for head down as well and she understands this now - see...cues are our friend
Good to hear. Do you think I should work more intensely on SATS? She often doesn't place her front legs side by side, but always one a bit more forward. And was it OK that I ignored her ears-back-teeth-out attempts to grab the bag while moving? She stopped it each times when ignored, and then tried to put a foot on, so I suppose it was correct?
I have said all the time you need to do more than a one or two ask with SATS - SATS was where you should begin before core - I think each time I say that you need to do this. There is a huge difference when a horse is playing as it mimics play fighting - she will do this as you taught her to grab things - I am not sure how many other examples she will show you but I warned you about this so so so many times LOL - all you can do is put things on cue - even grabbing things with her mouth now that she will do it - this is the only way to get rid of this - she put the foot on as this is what she was being reinforced for - again when something is not rewarded that she will expect to be rewarded for she will revert back to the last thing (in that context) she was rewarded for - the stomping of the bag - this is extinction hahahahaha - we can take advantage of this but it would involve micro-shaping and I feel that it would get you too confused (and really she is developing well now so I would not wish to throw this into the mix) - so see if you want to put the picking up on a verbal cue ....I would wait a little while to see what happpens as we begin to shape the core work personally and the bag now can go away for a while
OK, so what toy would you like me to bring instead today?
Maybe just walk with her, stand with her, SATS and briefly core, right?
I had started to put the picking up on verbal cue ("pick up") and applied it. But I think she hasn't made the connection yet. Anyway, I'm happy to drop this completely.
Ok good - yep I would do SATS and try and do a few around her body (see what happens) and yep some core - I reckon also she is just about clued into the 'are you ready' so when you see that she stands to attention when you say this - that is the time to ask for a millisecond longer ...yes yes YES click treat
Good, thanks!
yes lets see what happens as she begins to develop her default behaviours - she may forget all about picking things up
26 March 2020
She is going well, just watch you dont change legs in SATS when she does not understand you - i.e. the front leg you want moving is the only one you bring attention to, not swap to the other leg when it is in the right spot. So SATS needs work for sure but I would not group it with core I would teach SATS properly by itself - watch also what you are clicking for as she is developing the same habit as Carlotta and lifting the back leg - you dont want this to be a habit. but the first core lift was great especially.
Thank you, Julie. Yes, I noticed that she had lifted and kinda swung her hind leg like Carlotta. I think she didn't respond to SATS requests a bit later in the video, because I hadn't honoured one try earlier. Oops, yes for changeing legs.
27 March 2020
Oh dear, oh dear, she is soo fast to pick up unwanted things (hind leg). Will be fun to undo this...
And dang, I missed the crunch she offered at 3:34 ð She was pretty swipy with her cheeky little mouth today - definitely not happy when she thinks she earned a treat and I don't do it... Getting better with SATS, what do you think? And she wanted to straddle. But I can't really get her to stand still there at the moment. Maybe click when she stands and doesn't move for 2 or 3 secs over the pole?
part of the reason for the back leg happening is that it is caught in chains and she has been clicked for it - if you see at .22 - this is the usual click for you with SATS - can you see when you clicked? the next one was good (and the one after that), and this is what you have to aim for not click when the back legs walk back first. OK so we cannot complain about her presenting her bum and then it is rubbed - but I am not sure about her demeanour here ...did she want her bum rubbed?? I am not so sure - she was walking away and you followed her with your hand on her - I am not sure but she did not seem to 'enjoy' the scratch judging by her nipping you as you walked past....not sure about that - she should not expect a treat as she did not get a click. The straddling was great but you see each time she walked forward (rather than in response to SATS) you click and treat her - so this is what she is going to do - ask for her head down perhaps? - You still are relying on the clicks and they are not on cue, they are in response to her doing something. My suggestion with clicker training is always be consistent that we ask or cue and then click. Use social engagement strategies when she does something you like. for example the clicks to get on and off the climb on the pedestal - I would click once - when she was up IF she did something that I asked - otherwise she was just playing herself. the thing is she went to it she wanted to climb up - why click?...(and then she was clicked when she got off) - so that's an example of too many clicks...we want our horses to have autonomy and want to experiment because it makes them feel good, but too much clicking instead of saying yeah or yes or nice or whatever you choose, is making her decisions about the click. This is why you see her as expecting clicks because of your over-reliance on the click instead of social praise - Oh I wish I could convince you to break this habit or if you can't (as I could never get you to break it with Carlotta) then cue as you click. Of course this kind of habit has to be broken now very carefully as there will be extinction happening. So another example...why a treat at 3.04? 3.09 you clicked and she was a little anxious and that head down was not worthy of a click and a treat (as examples). mmm this kick with the back leg is part of a chain, - so my suggestion is to stop clicking for it - the chain can be seen in this bit at 3.19 you ask (her left leg) she lifts her back leg and then moves her right leg and she gets a click - that's the chain so my suggestion would be don't continue the sequence when the back leg lifts - use a moment of 'nothingness' ask for something she is good at (maybe head down) and then start again - and also you need to remember we are not wanting to click another foot moving - we want to click the one that you asked to move. that was a nice impromptu core lift at 3.35 - but I am not sure whether you were asking for the lift or head down - if you were asking for lift great click but if you were asking for head down (no click LOL). With the core lift at 3.57 you got the click in before the back leg so great, but why the click for 4.13 when she was anxious and frustrated and a little pissed off? and then a click as soon as you fed her the treat? this is a good example of relying on the click instead of using your social engagement - but she was a little pissed here and clicking and treating adds to the frustration. around 4.40 is a great example of what you were saying that if she feels she has done something worthy of the click she expects it...look what she did then - back leg LOL. OK so there was very little SATS , so not sure whether there is an improvement here yet - I need you to teach SATS by itself - naming and explaining. This is where you can click for 'nothing' hahahahaha - and no clicks and treats for any back leg but pause and then ask for something she does well and then get back to it - I suspect head down for her would be the best.
28 March 2020
oh also watch your treat delivery - you are forgetting again - we dont need her to move back if she is not in your space but sometimes your feeding so close to your body - a good gauge is always be in a position to give treats with a straight arm - we all stuff this up from time to time but try and remember straight arm - her manners are allot better though and I really think the nippy stuff is she nearly expects a click and treat for being in your company LOL
Hahaha. Spot on, Julie. I think you are right! :- Will read and compare again a bit later and then get back to you. So much useful info and thoughts and reminders! You're a treasure.
5 April 2020
I asked Anke about Carlotta not stopping square. Sent it a video. Her assessment:
In the first one she tripped so it doesn't count.
The second one you are riding nice and centred one handed And just before the halt. You look diwon and pick up the second rein. Try looking up stay nice and square over your hips concentrate on the outside hind inside shoulder lift. Breath out let her finish the stride.
I like when you go over your poles, the balance is great. You give her mice corrections from an elastic seat shoulder hip and a small correction from your right hand at her wither when she didn't turn while you maintained balance height and even weight.
The halt 3 you referred to again a lot leading up to it a bit of Spanish walk her concentration is on this and therefore there is already some loss of balance she swings her 1/4 in just before. Straight her up then ask again it that moment she rolled you out of the seat. Patience timing and simplify it. One thing at the time. Afterwards you ride her lovely one handed and center yourself behind the whip and use it as a pointer when she leaves the right hind to long on the ground. Allover nice quiet picture good work . Will have a look later at the rest
Her adivce to somebody else:
I think it has a lot to do with timing. So feel the rhythm. Get so placement outside hind. ...placement outside hind.... Placement sit on the placement - half-halt- lift inside shoulder breath out. Halt.
You got this. Work with a pattern and feel where her balance is. When she places the hind sit into it, release let her find her balance. And if necessary repeat in the next stride. You have time over a few strides while she learns. It is like the rise and fall of a wave.
6 April 2020
the first click was when she was stepping back but the next one was perfect. So just remember that if you do other things on the straddle pole you will never get the straddle. Your treat delivery is good now - I would personally not click if she stands still - I think though you are doing well and being allot more careful when you click - well done
Thanks Julie. OK, will try to remember with the pole. Haha, when I briefly watched it this morning and came to the part where I invited her away from the pole, I thought: Uh-oh, Julie will not like that! I really tried hard not to click so often
hahahaha - the head down at the pole was my 'problem' And she just had one or two tiny extinction bursts, so that looked promising, I thought. OK, won't do it again.
yes but you handled the extinction bursts well - sorry meant to note that
She seems to be able to control herself a lot better now.
yep I agree
Thank you, so happy to hear that. And she isn't a pest anymore for leading from and to the paddock. Very polite just at the right distance all the time, and waiting calmly to be haltered and unhaltered. Can't wait to see how she will behave at the next hoof trimmer visit. Wasn't able to do a session with her today, too much work. And won't tomorrow as I will leave for shopping early. That way, I might finally be able to grab some toilet paper, running out of it. But hopefully Friday. Will have to do it early, as I want to spray my arena. The grass is coming out again already. Better nip it in the bud. Now that he have my nice spraver on wheels.
sounds like a plan
7 April 2020
Was 4:30 pm when I finally got to ride Carlotta. In the paddock again for the wet saddle blanket training.
She is developping a lot more stamina by now and offers fast cortos (I better call them largo, as that is what it is) from her own, free will. Hardly tries to switch to trot anymore without me asking.
Nice canter as well, and my subtle stop cue (just saying "aand..." and seat, but no reins) also works in this open space! :-)
It's is so lovely to feel her prompt response to almost imperceptible cues, like a tiny weight or focus shift or a slight lift of my hand. Sometimes I have to laugh when I do something minimal and she immediately asks what I want (i.e. carefully and tentatively offers what she thinks I requested).
Aaah, the bliss of a highly sensitive horse. Thank you, Carlotta!
9 April 2020
Didn't feel overly good, as she was snipy again. Maybe I should only do this after morning hay, when she isn't hungry.
And I'm afraid I have messed the 2 attempts of CA up a bit, as I clicked when she moved backwards resp. lowered her head. Oops....
oh well I will have a look - there will be a reason she is snippy and it is not about food as she always has a full belly doesnt she?
Not really, as there is not much grass in the paddock. They get fed around 9:30 in the morning and 6 pm, so sometimes I do the Valeta session just before the morning feed. Had to do it early today, as I will spray the arena afterwards.
she does not like her head touched - I have noted this before and I suspect that this is why she got a little narky as she has done this exact thing before to you. If your horses do have a long time when they have nothing in the bellies, apart from the health consequences that flow from that, I would expect to see her want to take the treats but she is narky at you so I dont believe it is that she is hungry. But after she told you its a no for the head, you waited, but then asked for head down and she gave it to you and you did not acknowledge it - so yes a not so good LRS LOL and then this is why she walked off - I am not sure what you are after here and unfortunately she is getting confused - it seems you are expecting the world from her but giving her nothing in return. I am sure you dont mean it but it seems to me that when she shows you how she feels (when she is not great) it blocks your mind and you go into an mindset where you want one specific thing and it has to be a good one, but unfortunately she does not understand this - start small - get the LRS right and you will see her respond allot better. But she and you came out of it OK, however the SATS is not there (are you practicing it or even did it with her)? I have just never seen it with her - I have only seen this when you ask her to move her foot back but you have not taught her the name and explain so I suspect she is either chaining it as you click for it or she is simply reacting to the touch on her leg. So as a result she is always walking back when you ask but then you still ask for a core lift and she has one leg out in front of the other - it is kind of defeating the purpose - so she cannot even work out the pattern, but I am sure it is because she needs name and explain which was what you needed to do first but I am wondering if you skipped it?. I can see you tried not to do anything on the pole - instead of rubbing try doing the bladder meridium - but it was good ð
10 April 2020
I had done SATS with her a while back, but not long enough, as it sounds. So I will go through it again and see how it helps. I thought that I might start to only verbally reward a head-down for example from time to time, but that didn't go down well.... Yes, sounds like I really "expected the world from her". Will try the bladder meridian and not touch her head anymore.
Oh OK I thought you were doing the LRS which is what she needed at that time - it takes away the anxiety and gives her confidence (this is why we use something that they can do easily and for her head down is the go behaviour). Yeah she does not understand the name and explain - at this point we should not have to touch her just point - the head is very precious for her - Sharney is the same...I suspect it is just the field of vision but if we dont need to be there
OK, thanks, will go now and give it another shot. Have to make up an area in my house paddock, as I don't want to let her loose (and eat) in my sprayed arena. BTW, for somebody who thinks about her head that way, she brings it VERY close to me pretty often!!!
it is just a thought, I have seen it a couple of times - there is a big difference between not being able to see something coming verses turning ones head in the best way possible - it may have nothing to do with it
Just had a look at it. Oops, noticed that I am clicking (after naming), when she moved her legs. Got better in the second half though
yep watchng it now so we have to go back I think to being able to stand near her without her walking back, but yes she gets better. So I know the reason you are moving her forward is for the camera - so you did not have your pixio on? OK so we need to stop the movement - she is too busy - but it gets better. So what I would do it to have a large cone there and ask her to touch the cone to bring her forward, this will also help her when she puts her head down and you dont click - so no rubbing and it is very quick dont wait for her to stand before you ask for it again.....she is having trouble with these treats - allot of the time in the last 4 or so videos, I have noticed that she lifts her head to chew - I would suspect dental issues but I know you wont use an equine dental vet and that would be the only way to see if this is the case - so can we use a less chewy treat? maybe some hygain zero?
but it was not bad
I didn't have the Pixio on because I would have needed to figure out where to put the beacons, and I was planning only a short session and had other things planned for later. OK, will bring the big cone in and practise standing still calmly.
Today I used lucerne chaff from the bumbag. Did this because, when I brought her in, Carlotta was putting up a terrible show in the paddock, calling her and running around like mad, which of course got Valeta all excited. And she was very absorbed with eating the grass in that section. So I went to grab Carlotta and rode her, waiting for Valeta to settle down. Which she eventually did. But I had forgotten to get my vest with the treats and still had the bumbag on.
I also have started introducing her to a small bottle with a mixture of apple sauce and water. She is thinking about it, after a bit of suspicion in the beginning. Will see how it goes in the following.
I think that I was too wound up myself and didn't wait until she had finished the treats, which wound her up in return. Really must breathe and slow myself down.... ð It doesn't feel like it while we do it, but it shows very clearly in the video.
golly I wish you would not press enter each sentence LOL my phone has been tinging and tinging hahahaha
only an equine dental vet can tell you - sorry until you actually see what implements are used and the time they look in their mouth you will not understand - a horses teeth and gums cannot be properly examined without sedation. no I only use low GI and that is why I recommend hygain zero for treats - nope do not recommend grain for horses. Yes finishing the treats is a chore without the right treats but I am seeing her head up allot lately to try and chew - so we have to get the right mix and this is why zero is good as they dont need to 'chew' and 'chew' - maybe try them and see?
Will see whether my local feed shop has them. I dont think you were going to fast, rather she was having trouble chewing - so maybe try another treat and see? if you remember you never see Star chew and chew - he only gets zero and Sharney gets the liquid
all feed shops have zero - if they dont they may have 'ice' same stuff just a tinch difference but both low GI
Gosh, I didn't know that your phone tings after each "enter". I do that because it's much easier to read, when it's not all in one bulky paragraph
Will have to wait until next Wed when I will be back in town hahahaha yes as I am not near my computer after lunch and have to have the phone on for FB as many people want to use FB instead of ring or email - its fine but you are the only one who presses enter after each sentence
12 April 2020
Finally found a moment to do a little session with Valeta. Hm, somehow the beginning didn't get cut off, sorry. And once we were finished, it occurred to me that I could try a second attempt with the liquid treat (apple juice and water). She took to it like a duck to water, so will use this more often from now on, as I have found a bottle that suits me. Vid is currently loading into DB. And look at this: I didn't press enter after each sentence! ð
hahahaha YES with the lack of pings OK so that is good tell me what bottle you are using...my horses know all the tricks
That's a small apple juice bottle from Maccas! I tried various "normal" ones, but they drove me nuts because each time, I put them in horse's mouth, the top piece shut down. That little done doesn't do it. And I like the size. The ones you use are so big. Nighty-night. Another busy day tomorrow, but I hope I can bring Valeta in nevertheless.
13 April 2020
Ok so it looked good until you went for the halter LOL. So you can see she does not get the SATS yet but it is good you are testing her now and again and then she shows it is not quite in her head so a minute or so when you see her for a while. But she was good and she did not go for the cone after a short time (BUT you still clicked and treated her when she decided to - cues cues cues) -but she stood well and I saw the little crunch. But I am confused as to why you put her halter on and then went to the cone....why?...what have I missed?
Hi Julie, yes, she was quite nice and calm in her manners, wasn't she! OK, cues, yesss! Working on myself. I did name and explain each time, but in this wind, it wasn't audible sometimes. I put the halter on to take her back to the paddock, then remembered the bottle in my pocket and thought I'd just give it a try. Maybe not a good idea to do this, after my end-of-session signal. Anyway, I did it. I had already put the pointer away and just couldn't be bothered to take the halter off again, that's why. I only wanted to do 2 or 3 tries, but somehow she was so eager that I added a couple of SATS as well.
hahahaha OK that makes sense ð but yes her manners were great
Sometimes you've got to improvise a bit ð Feels like we finally are getting somewhere.
well you always were getting somewhere we just needed to be consistent in one direction - also just watch the lid of the bottle - really examine to make sure there are no moving parts - in the ones I use there are three that have to be taken off the cap (Star has kindly shown me where all three are)
Not ideal, but Valeta really seems to enjoy the liquid treat, now that she knows how it works.
Valeta wasn't very interested in playing today, she wanted to eat. Not much progress today.
it happens
14 April 2020
think about what foot you are tapping and what are you asking - for example if a hind leg is back it is easier to ask for the other hind to align rather than ask for the back leg to come forward We only ask for two goes - if it does not happen and we ask again we are nagging and desensitising the horse to the SATS - so it informs us that we need to do more name and explain - I would begin each session only doing this around her body - it actually settles her and she stays still for it ...why? I suspect it is the most consistent thing she is experiencing...does that make sense? and you cannot swap feet after nagging because this makes it even more confusing - so ask point, ask tap then thats it - go back to name and explain - even if all you did in the session was be in sync with her learning then you are both learning. I actually think she was very engaged initially but the misunderstanding with the tapping has just sent her mind elsewhere...you did not see that back leg at the end LOL - OK so I thought she was good - she showed you what she is confused about in a polite way today rather than nip that means she is getting better emotional control. So your mission if you choose to accept it is not to assume she knows what you mean - if she does not lift her leg back or forward when you point then you go back to name and explain and be consistent with this THEN it will begin to make sense to her
Ahaaa! Very good points, I hadn't got it - the devil in the detail, as usual. Will try to do it better now.
Good to know that she actually did make progress. And how nice of her to let me know politely. The emotions came out a bit while she was grazing, as it looked a bit frantic. Good girl, Valeta!
yep so this is also a good point that you saw the emotions when she was eating. oh the internet is so slow - Catrine wanted to see how I use the TT wraps with Sharney so I managed to record this morning - hours and hours waiting for a video to load - some speed tests I did this morning were under a mg!
Uploading today's in DB now. I think you might like it - only 2:30 minutes short and Valeta cooperating so beautifully! BTW, Carlotta is such a pleasure: she now comes almost each time, when I appear. So, when it's Valeta, I halter her, then turn to Carlotta and praise her and give her a goodie. There is such a nice connection between us now.
yes it is for sure - here it is if you want to laugh https://www.dropbox.com/s/u4budljr33ygmi9/Sharney%20With%20Wrapsed_com.mp4?dl=0
it is great that things are going well for you all
Will look at your vid after siesta. Am a bit worn out, as I sprayed the whole driveway this morning, huff puff.
Hahaha, FA-BU-LOUS! You should send it to Robyn Hood. I bet she won't believe her eyes when she sees your version of using body wraps!
oh is it bad?
Go Sharney, lovely half-passes! And the creative input - I just love it! are you sure you loaded the right video also it is 7plus mins
No, it's wonderful! I couldn't stop smiling the whole way through!
oh OK I have not yet got feedback as to whether this was the correct way from my body worker but I may send it to Robyn - she will get back to me allot quicker
yes that was good asking her to move away from the cone
OK yes this was really good her manners have really improved just so much - I think she is a liquid treat girl - interesting how she actually puts her head down for a good core lift - not many can do that straight away
Aah, good, was wondering what had happened.
I wasn't sure whether putting her head down for CA is a good thing, so tried not to encourage it. What do you think? Shall I click for it?
yes the head down is good, as you can see she is not behind the vertical and only 'advanced' crunches yield this so for sure - it also stops her using her neck
Maybe I should show it to Carlotta?
hahahahaha well you can try - but truely it is good - if you want to use the bottle more I suggest you get a bottle holder like I have and they were from amazon and they thread onto your bum bag belt
I thought about using the treat bag you sent me. Should be easy to put it in there.
oh that size bottle yes for sure it is just that I use both so I need two things there hahahaha - weighs it down though - I have followed your suggestion and sent it to Robyn to see if she has time as I know Michelle will take weeks to get back to me
Today's vid is in DB. It's just short, taken in between 2 showers.
16 April 2020
nice lift at the end - it is working - with SATS you could be a little quicker - but she is getting it so I would now make the lift the focus and a little SATS if she forgets - but I imagine you are giving her chewy treats - why not use the liquid for the SATS then you can be quicker? the key is in the consistency that once we ask for front legs we go into the lift - so they start to see the front legs as a prelude for the lift - but good work!
Thank you She wasn't very keen on the liquid treat today, so had to go back to the chewy ones. Hope she will love the bottle more and more over time.
maybe try a different liquid my horses are not keen on apple juice honestly I wish you would try hexarinse - I only add 1/3 and the rest water to the bottle - it will at least help your horses a little bit given they are not able to receive equine dental care - you realise that unless a horse is sedated no one can find periodontal disease or the early stages of EROTH - but a small bottle from vetproductsdirect and see what they think
17 April 2020
I have ordered one today. Oh, forgot to tell you: Wednesday, Silke the trimmer was here. I couldn't hold Valeta for her (Corona distancing), so I tied her to the rail and hung the feed bag to it. She stood like an angel for the whole time! I bet the emotional control practise helped there
18 April 2020
maybe yes the emotional control practice helped (or just the hay hahaha)
Let's say it was a combination of both.
haha
She used to be very wiggly up to now, even with hay present or feeding treats (for standing still and not nipping). It did get better gradually, but Wed was a real breakthrough.
great - could also be her core is straitening, as she is lifting when you get it right
19 April 2020
There is a new short video in DB. I had taken 2, but the first one wasn't overly good. If you want it anyway, I can post it.
it depends if you need feedback for the one you have not loaded - your call
not sure what you did in this one to be honest you are now blending reinforcers again and I thought that what we were going to work on was core work and only if she does not get it, go back to SATS? Not in the best of shapes today apparently...
20 April 2020
not sure as I really did not see anything except a couple of SATS and some pressure and release. So dont know what the other video showed that you say was not very good. All I can do is repeat what I had recommended the other day and that is try and do the core work - if when you ask for her to stand well to set her up for success and she does not understand then this is the key for SATS to be practiced but it is not a chore - usually it is quick and is all over with in a couple of minutes and usually needs to be repeated a couple of times and they get it. I think the reason it is taking longer for her is that you do it allot slower than I would usually do and is repeated allot more than I have had to. It may also not work as well for her when you ask for her core activation as in the past it can sometimes be a little inconsistent as to what you are doing when you incorporate it into the core work (e.g. the tapping that becomes nagging and changing legs, and not remembering each time to set her up with the front legs at least). But when she is standing nicely and you ask for a core activation it is really good. So just in case I am not being clear - SATS practice when she shows you she does not get it.
OK, will try again. She often doesn't get it and keeps moving her feet or gets worried. So I have to tone down my expectations and just go with what she offers, I suppose.
I think I did a few glitches sigh And at the end she told me (hind leg!) that she had enough!
22 April 2020
Maybe it is is better to have a break - she cannot learn without frustration if you are asking her for a lift with her front foot out and you click as she leans back - unfortunately for some reason you cant see how she is standing and cant see that she begins most of the time by leaning back. The good news is that she can learn the difference 'are you ready' means get ready which means square up. See with the second one at .48 you ask her if she is ready you are walking towards her and she is moving back - it feels to me that your focus is more on getting it done and that's understandable as you are not enjoying it. 1.02 you saw the front leg good and you eventually got there and this was good except I would have clicked her squaring up - -she did this herself and unfortunately you did not acknowledge it. You then use a keep going signal (ggggg good) when she finished? we would only use a keep going signal during behaviour if it is needed (not that it meant anything to her). One of the things that distracted you was the fact that you are using a still camera and had to be mindful of where you were standing - the fact that she goes out of range should signal to you that you are clicking for her moving backwards - but your focus is on the camera - it is a distraction you dont need. Constantly having her move forward will frustrate her and this is why I had suggested to leave a cone there when you use a still camera so that there is a purpose to being in a position . Because you like to use the clicker allot more than I would use it, each time you bring her forward you give her a click and treat - so why would she remain there if she has been taught to move forward for a treat? What is also happening is that you are not trying to use the core - you are still trying to remain in SATS but you cannot be this slow and fumble this long for a treat. SATS is fast. With core work it is get into position ask to square and then ask for the core lift - so the getting into position and core is ONE behaviour. I had recommended to you that you only use the SATS component (front leg click treat) if after a couple of asks she does not understand you. Your over-reliance on the clicker shows through here because clicking rather than communicating to her after moving the front leg separates the getting ready and core into two behaviours and really by the time you get the treat out and give it to her you and she have moved and you are both loosing the ready position. The more you do this the harder it will be to join the behaviours as one. the next attempt shows she cannot really learn what you are asking as you are asking and clicking for less than ideal movements - here her front legs were no where near ready and you clicked when she went back - we do not click if she moves back. the 2.52 was good and this is what you need to aim for - this is where you should have finished it. But you moved around her and then she lost it - you moved her back but then clicked - then what we can see is what she has been trained to do - move back when you ask, move forward and click and treat. she is only showing you the chain you have taught her. Then we have the back leg added as part of the chain at 3.56 and I can see that you are looking at her withers , facing her and not looking at her shoulders (you know she cant lift her cervical vertebrae and her back leg and the same time). I will be back soon, internet is stalling
mmm OK it is simply you are not watching - see the next one at 4.38 she moves back, her legs are not square and your focus is on her wither - you cannot possibly see what is happening when you do this. She is worried about the bottle and or the liquid in that wind - and frankly thats the only anxiety I see. You say that she showed her frustration at the end with her leg....what I saw on the video was her lifting her leg as this is something you taught her - when a horse does not understand what the person is asking then they revert to a behaviour that has been consistently reinforced for and that is her back leg (this is an extinction process)- just the same as carlotta. She was not frustrated and I saw no anxiety - in fact her manners are fantastic and her emotional control is wonderful - it is just unfortunately at the moment you are not able to offer the consistency she needs. I would not feel bad about it but for the moment because you are blaming her ('She doesnt get it') I would would recommend that you stop for a while. She is only doing what you have reinforced. She is not moving her feet because she is worried she is moving them because you taught her this chain - move back ask forward click treat. So if I were you I would stop and just enjoy things with her - think about watching the example videos when your head is ready and then play it out in your mind first - also this is far too long a session - especially when we are accidently reinforcing what we we dont want to reinforce
OMG... OK, thanks, Julie. I will give her a rest an play things in my mind instead of with her in person.
yes I think the best is to go through those few videos I have and play them in your mind - you have to remember where you 'came from' and how her manners are now fantastic and she is so willing - so your mission if you are prepared to accept it is to make sure you model in your mind and when you are ready....
Yes, her manners are lovely now, and her patience with her clumsy owner too. You mean the videos in the course, right? Will go back to them.
yep the SATS and core stuff - it is simply a matter of focusing on in them and remembering core work is SATS and Core together, not as a separate venture - only when she shows she does not understand after a couple of asks would you say OK lets work on SATS only for a couple of sessions
Yes, will do. One thing I got a bit confused with, is when to ask for front leg. Is it: "are you ready", followed by "front leg" then then "lift"? Or front leg,-ready-lift? And only 1 click and treat at the end, right? Sorry, I never had so much difficulties.
so the sequence is are you ready? if this is ingrained and our horse is feeling like a crunch, they will put their legs into a standing position ready for the crunch - we are standing at their core at this time. If they dont move their legs if they should be we ask....if this works 'are you ready' lets go to a core and do it - if our horse does not really understand we need to go back and do SATS only 0- name and explain and then also the movement of the legs - heaps of praise and leave it
Will give both horses a break today, as I am too tired really. Was in town at 8 a.m. to get some toilet paper (got one, yay), then shopping, then physio treatment, then more shopping, then home and unpack shopping and portion dog meat. Long day...
no are you ready is the sign for them to move their legs if they need to - I am simply saying you dont click EVER for a correction - moving her forward after she moves back is a correction - if there was something magical in what you ask yes click
OK, thanks.
25 April 2020 Just a little fun today. See today's vid in DB.
I hope this was not actually loaded to you tube and then you sent it again this way - so after 3 hrs it downloaded - we do not have a good internet - we have on a good day maybe 1mb download. OK so thats good if you were having fun - I am sorry I did not see fun for her intrinsically - i saw her wondering what can she do to get a click - but for sure those who use clicker that way enjoy that - but one has to ask is it for your enjoyment her hers? she was endlessly SEEKING to get you to click - yep for sure that is the Alex way (and allot of people who use the clicker) but for me - I would love to see some intrinsic motivation
It was loaded directly from the raw vid. As always. Ok it just had youtube on the titel oppps title Yes, it does, but it's not youtube, promised.
I think I'm about to give up. Seems I can never get it right, so it makes you happy. And I thought she liked it. Apparently I'm wrong. Ah well....
it is not about me it is about you - it is not about making me happy - if this makes you happy that is great - but I have different goals than you for horses - I want autonomy and fun and intrinsic motivation - unless I am doing exercises that need to be done for an issue (e.g. sharneys wobble) the horse has the platform and they do what ever they want and nothing is directed by me - however if they do no display energy it is all over and they go for a walk -so whatever makes you happy is important but I am not a clicker fan with the way most present it - especially Alex - the clicker is a tool of communication for me - if horses I work with are not jumping for joy and motivated for the sake of their own feeling of joy then I think about what I have missed in terms of what they need - but the clicker is not my lifeline - it is just a difference of modalities - I am happy to help you with what I know best, but as for the clicker I have a very firm view on how to use it - with what you are doing here Alex would be happy - but I am not Alex and you want to follow her views on how to use the clicker and thats great - but not my style of clicker - I bet you still have not looked at my clicker DVD
26 April 2020
I just don't want to let you down with the case study for Valeta, that is why I was persisting so much.
But you are right, our views about our interaction with horses are different. What you are doing is the ideal scenario, but in my world, I just can't realise it, my own priorities always come in between. Of course, I want to do everthing I can to make my horses happy, it just seems like a never-ending struggle to do it your way. And I am getting more and more frustrated and feel lousy about it each time it happens. Maybe I should just apply the things that work for me and Carlotta and Valeta. I have got a huge amount of very positive things from your coaching, which I really treasure. Maybe CT the Alex way are just too ingrained, as I have done it for so many years now? And had what felt like a lot of success...
Anyway, if you would like me to try to finish the case study, maybe I will give it a break for the moment and then get back to it and see whether we can finish it as planned. Is the goal that Valeta can do a good crunch?
I hope a good break will make things better. In the meantime, I really like it how Valeta comes running when she sees me arrive from far away and is very eager to come into the arena and interact with me. Maybe the things we have achieved by now, thanks to your coaching, have already sufficiently "changed" her, so she has understood about patience and softness. That is what it feels to me. I am also wondering whether Valeta is just too young at the moment to do intense core work (or any work). She is still pretty immature IMO. But I am sure that, would you have been her teacher (physically), she would be already there and have succeeded.
I think go with a break for a while - it is in the micro managing that the frustration lies with the clicker. You are right so much is so much better and her emotional control is great - even those videos are going to be worth their weight for me! no she can crunch I have seen her - when you set it up right and remember not to click too often she can do it - small crunches but thats all that is needed - see what you think about with a break - dont worry about the videos for the crunches it is not important enough....if I could just get you to click less
It works well for Carlotta with clicking less, but Valeta has those expectations and gets all frustrated when she thinks she deserves a click and all she gets is verbal praise. So, do we consider the case study finished?
What I currently do: when going into the paddock for some reason, Valeta comes to my side, we walk a few steps together, then she stands with me. I say "are you ready" and sometimes she lines up her front feet. If she doesn't, I just give her a scritchie and go to my things. And if she does, I praise and say "lift". And sometimes she does and gets a big treat. I only ask once. Keeping it a game.
Yesterday, when walking Carlotta back to the paddock, I said to her "lift", and guess what: she did! She also offers CAs pretty often now during the stops when I ride her.
its up to you whether you want to do anything or not - the thing is what you describe here with Valeta is not what I see you doing on the video
can you please translate this into German for me - Momo Taro is german and she is asking me questions and I am giving her too much english
my way begins with teaching the horse a language (yes English for me) through Syn Ali training systems (SATS) for short and providing autonomy of course, but I want my horse to be confident in movements without tension and be able to use those movements in times when they may be a little anxious. So therefore I am meticulous that the horse can understand names for body parts and then I ask the horse to move their body parts in the best way to set up a good crunch - I wont click for certain movements towards a crunch because I want the horse to own the crunch in a different way - to use it (and the PW) when they need to get a little confidence - in this way we can also see how they communicate with us when they show these movements. So I micro manage to the nth degree (but for different reasons and it is the body parts that are micro managed). I also do not accept intrinzens conception of the autonomic nervous system - it is very old science and not correct - the polyvagal theory is the most current way of thinking about the ANS
27 April 2020
Mein Weg beginnt damit, dem Pferd eine Sprache beizubringen (ja, in meinem Fall englisch), und zwar über Syn Ali Trainingssysteme (SATS) und indem ich ihm Autonomie (Selbstbestimmung) ermögliche, aber ich möchte, dass mein Pferd zuversichtlich und frei von Spannung in seinen Bewegungen ist und fähig, diese Bewegungen in Situtationen anzuwenden, wo es ein wenig verspannt und ängstlich sein könnte. Deshalb bin ich äusserst genau darin, ihm beizubringen, Namen für Körperteile zu verstehen. Anschliessend fordere ich das Pferd auf, seine Körperteile in der bestmöglichen Art zu bewegen, um einen guten Crunch aufzubauen. Manche Bewegungen in Richtung Crunch clicke ich nicht, weil ich erreichen will, dass dem Pferd der Crunch auf eine andere Art zu eigen ist - ihn (und den PW) anzuwenden, um etwas Selbstsicherheit zu erzielen - auf diese Art können wir auch sehen, wie sie mit uns kommunizieren, wenn sie diese Bewegungen zeigen. Ich wende also Mikro-Management im höchsten Grad an (allerdings aus anderen Gründen, da es die Körperteile sind, die durch Mikro-Management angesprochen werden). Auch akzeptiere ich nicht das Intrinzenkonzept des autonomischen Nervensystems - es ist eine sehr alte Wissenschaft und nicht korrekt - die polyvagale Theorie ist die neueste Art, das autonomische Nervensystem (ANS) zu betrachten.
ta
That is very nicely summed up, Julie.
Ok ta, she has not got back to me - as usual I am really getting sick of helping people on the FB page and then they never bother get back to me when I share information with them. Just doing my map presentation now - fingers crossed the first one works - so far so good (using a new program for it)
I have taken the tension out of my interaction with Valeta. Yesterday, she came close to me immediately and lined up at my side. So I named a few body parts (bearing in mind your goal for the head). Then she suddenly offered a little crunch. Big praise and end of session.
Yes, it is extremely frustrating when you bend over backward to help people and they don't even bother to say thank you.
yeah so that is great - she really has it, it is more about thinking of what she is experiencing and letting her show you.
Doing my very best
28 April 2020
************** Caroline did an energetic healing for Carlotta, then one for me:
For Carlotta:
I completed an energy balance on Carlotta today and here is what came up: She was out of balance by 80%. Pain in right side of back near lumbar. Base of right neck, cleared the pain, then left neck pain - also shoulder joint on right.
Cleared pain through her etheric field to give her more ease of movement. She has had trouble with right lead in canter for about 1 month now. That's when the pain started due to 'too much of something" not really sure what. Maybe just from being out of balance generally.
Her anxiety was quite high and she also felt something like "shame" Although that is a human emotion it is the closest I could understand.
She loves praise. Loves it when you reach forward to stroke her from the saddle.
She is making progress through concentrated effort and is a very diligent worker. She says she tries to follow your 'vision' to turn it into reality. She says you are the one with the vision.
I did some percentages: Carlotta is 90% happy. 70% happy with what she eats, 80% warm enough, like her paddock mates, Likes Yvonne 100%, Body pain was at 45%, Saddle comfort is 90%, Feet comfort is 85%.
Things she is not sure about: Being ridden by other people.
I don't know what wet saddle blanket is? doesnt like.
At end of my energetic healing session she was 100% back in balance so this will affect her physical pain - if it has not gone already.
Apologies about all the writing without space, I hit enter and it sent. If you have specific questions for Carlotta I can ask.
My notes about it:
Ugh, that sounds like a lot of pain. Poor Carlotta!
80% out of balance? Weird, she feels like she has pretty good balance, especially since we started the core work. Or is is energy balance? Sorry, I don't know anything about this approach. Is it a kind of AC, combined with healing?
Yes, she had there problems with canter to right for 4 or 5 weeks. Too much of something? Hm... Maybe due to the fact that I tried some more lateral stuff to the right, mainly half passes. Could this have been too strenuous for her? We did low-key prep work, but maybe I did it wrong, who know.
Ooh, I am so touched that she tries so hard to make my dream come true. I know that she is a very hard worker and gives me a lot of creative input and very interesting ideas of her own. She is so full of good will and cooperation that it always makes me very happy. My lovely girl!
Oh, how can she love me 100% when I am so demanding? I feel I don't "deserve" this!
Since we started with Intrizen and then Julie's approach for autonomy and core activation, our relationship has changed and she has become a lot happier horse. I allow her autonomy wherever it is safe and have become a lot more patient and open to listening to her needs. This has paid off incredibly.
Example: when she is worried about something, she stops and looks at it intensely. Before, I asked her to come and walk with me when it happened, but then I understood that she needs time to digest her worries by looking, and then only starts to move, once this is done. She shows it by lowering her head a bit and starts chewing.
It took several weeks where she stopped like very 2 steps and stared and stared. Took a lot of patience from me! But now, when she feels the need to stop and look, it's only for a few secs, then is happy to be with me again.
Yes, I am well aware that she does NOT like being ridden by somebody else. She told me at more than one occasion that she is MY horse and she doesn't want anybody else in her saddle!
Wet saddle blanket means: I ride her for about 20 minutes with lots of corto (faster gait) and some cantering, so she starts to sweat a beat. She has been horribly fat for about 18 months now and no diet was able to remedy to it. So we are trying some workout now. Our daily arena sessions are mainly brain work and not very demanding physically. So I am riding her in my middle paddock, where she can stretch her legs. She is becoming fitter now, and I start seeing results. The fat crest is soft again now and the fat lumps on her croup are gone. So, hopefully we will manage to go back to a more normal weight eventually.
Interesting also about feeling warm. I rug her overnight when there is rain predicted, as she doesn't have much coat.
So, you brought her back into balance. Great! I rode her very softly and moderately for 10 minutes this morning. Mainly let her choose what to do, and practiced walk-stop-walks. It was a very quiet session, and I think she enjoyed it.
What was interesting: at standstill, she offered a lot of core activations (i.e. arch her neck and lift her withers and back). I wonder whether this was related to your treatment. Usually she does this once or twice per session maximum.
Where are we going from here? Shall I observe things over the next days and report? Do you think she needs a hands-on treatment from you, or shall we see first how she feels? I noticed that during yesterday's ride in the paddock, she at one stage spontaneously offered a canter on right lead. Just a step or two, but she was the one who did it. Maybe that was after your treatment (was in the aftrernoon).
BTW, I now talk to her a lot during our interactions. Have taken this over from Julie, who talks to her horses all the time, basically like to a human! I explain to Carlotta what we are going to do and why, and she seems to understand it. And you are right, she loves positive feedback, even verbal one. There is a kinda proud response from her when I tell her how well she did this or that.
Notes from Caroline:
Out of balance energetically - her energy field. When out of balance they can feel physical pain
Actually while I was trying to understand the vision bit - it was Carlotta's vision. You are right she does have ideas - I said it was yours as I have not had a horse say they have the vision before and I made an assumption it was you. Although she is for certain wanting to help you create
OK so the things I know about her anxiety are: worried about 'getting it right'. Does not want to be ridden by others. The anxiety calmed completely after the treatment so I wouldnt worry unless she remains showing signs of difficulty with movement.
Caroline for myself:
OK so yesterday I didn't get around to my type up. I'm doing everything online now and teaching classes all day online is more time consuming than actually going in to class on campus!
I am continuing to balance your energy in my healing circle. You had years of trapped emotions in your body. I did not seek to find out where or why. It took a while to clear so I assume layers are peeling.
I released the trapped emotions from cells and the intuition I received was that you are moving towards calmer waters with ease of movement. Healing in other words.
Pancreas issues are usually about rejection, anger, frustration - emotions picked up along your life somewhere that your cells hang on to however you have done a good job yourself of releasing these and I only found your pancreas to be in good health.
Emotions that I needed to work on were guilt, anxiety, indecisiveness, fear, alienation - we don't need to understand where these came from - could have been in past life even but your etheric field still carried them. Released and I put in healthy ego, ease, security, acceptance, decisiveness and ease of movement.
Messages received from your 'higher self' or your guides was that you are to remember to reconnect, centre and balance yourself at times. Perhaps before riding or if you feel out of balance energetically. To do this feel your feet connect with the ground - even stamp them. hands on solar plexus and breather mindfully.
A message very strong that you are being protected. Also that you need really really good shoes. Maybe this relates to sore back when standing?
So I am hoping you feel a little lighter? Let me know any changes for the better...or the worse.
Me: Can't thank you enough for what you have done for my horse and myself. You are such a treasure. THANK YOU, my dear!
*****************************
29 April 2020
So you remember the map I asked you to look at which you did not (hahaha) - I am going to complete them all with a list of instructions and the blank map (there will be 3-4) of them as the finishing video - I played around with the first map what do you think? - only a short video https://www.dropbox.com/s/6e2xqb5swui7sjt/Our%20Horses%20Personal%20Profile%20Map.mp4?dl=0
ooops that was the wrong link here is the completed video https://www.dropbox.com/s/5lei6qqz5l878vr/Our%20Horses%20Personal%20Profile%20Map%20With%20Videos_comp.m4v?dl=0
and yes there is a typo on the book reference
30 April 2020
Will have a look shortly, Julie, still very busy with getting my current painting finished. Happy to started to Star now.
it doesn't matter I have released it - I have not yet given you a better pic of Star LOL
2 MAy 2020
OK, I have written down my comments for the last section of workshop. If you want to make use of it, feel free, but if it's too much hassle, just discard it. Here it is: Carlotta.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA_lNFmf-0c&feature=youtu.be
I can put you the raw vid into the DB, if needed.
1. Personal profie map
Ventral Vagal:
0:01 - 0:04 She feels engaged and happy to show me her panther walk. Connected to me and eager to do more.
0:05-0:10 She is proud to show me how nicely she can move. Very tuned into me (ears).
0:11-0:13 She takes a little break and is slightly tense at 0:13 (head up), then
0:14-0:18 she displays very engaged and pronounced PW
0:19-0:20 she makes an extra effort, lifting herself up very distinctively.
0:21 to 0:30 She stops and takes her well-deserved treat and praise, visibly very content with herself.
Sympathetic:
I could only see one very brief moment of "flight" when her head went up for a second around 0:13.
Dorsal Vagal:
There were no feeling from this range in this video.
Overall, it felt to me like she was happy to perform for me and did a great job, feeling very satisfied with herself.
I myself was delighted by her effort and showed it abundantly in my praise. Made me feel blissful to have such a wonderful horse.
3 May 2020
Ok so these are good thoughts but it was not about taking a video and describing it - we are developing a personal profile of our horse so that we are able to pick the states from their behaviour. So the instructions are to think about a time - the reason I added videos was that this was the time I was thinking of. Then we describe what our horse does - you say there is no dorsal in this video, but in many videos I see dorsal being the dominant vagal tone. there is sympathetic the whole time - otherwise she would not be moving, the tone that accompanies it is what is relevant and here it is a vagal tone
sorry I got hung up in a call - so think about a time does not mean you find a video - it means you think about a time that your horse was high in ventral vagal, then a time high in dorsal vagal and then a time high in sympathetic - was that time mediated by ventral or dosal? then what we do is describe what it felt like for our horse - this is the profile we are developing - when my horse shows me this ...he is high or low in..... so it is not about a video but I added a video to show my explanation as to why I was thinking about that time - all you have to do is fill out the map
Phew, somehow I am not comfy with all this. Always have to go back to check the meaning of ventral vagal, dorsal vagal and sympathetic. Seems that my brain just refuses to absorb it...
Ok so the videos I did for map one dont help? ventral is social engagement - happy and enjoying things - dorsal ranges from being a little anxious through to even when a horse has a massage through to shut down. Each of the two cannot act by themselves and often act with eachother just one higher than the other - the sympathetic is the energy system - it operates all the time and depending on the impact of the ventral or the dorsal - it will be shit I am out of here through to yeah I am having fun
That's a great explanation. Thank you. I wrote up two examples from yesterday for you. Hope they are suitable for this:
Yesterday, with Carlotta, I tried out an old exercise which all my horses used to love in the past: going sideways over a small cone, on a lead rope at this stage.
Carlotta walked towards it with me and had a suspicious look. I think the dorsal vagal applied here at that moment, as she suddenly immobilised and felt rigid. Also the sympathetic, as she was thinking "flight".
I let her stand and look until she softened her poll and eventually reached out and sniffed the cone. So went into ventral vagal and started feeling social and a bit safe(r).
Then I asked her, via body language, i.e. picking up slight contact on rope and positioning myself sideways, to take the first step sideways. She responded with a dorsal vagal response: froze, then fidgeted.
We took a break and wandered around a bit together, then another approach. Sympathetic: mobilised, as she was interested, positioned herself and took a sideways step. Then briefly immobilised herself (dorsal vagal), but came out of it quickly and stepped sideways over the cone, then sighed and lowered her head a bit. i.e. safe feeling in ventral vagal.
*******
One for Valeta, also yesterday, when coming back into paddock.
Valeta came running to me, like she always does, and lined up at my side. Ventral Vagal, feeling social. I stroked her withers and back a bit, then started a bit of SATS-naming body parts. She went briefly into dorsal vagal, i.e. slightly fidgeted, then immobilised again and breathed out (sympathetic?).
She happily followed my in the naming of body parts, then suddenly curled her neck, but stepped back 2 steps (my own fault, as I had inadvertantly taught her that chain). I said good try, but let's try to stand still this time. So, there was some dorsal vagal (fidgeting, then immobilising),
We talked a bit more, and I gave her scritchies, which she answered to by turning towards me (ventral vaga: safe and social). Then wanted to stop, but she suddenly, while her front legs were quite well positioned, and without me asking for anything, she arched her neck again and went into a small core activation, standing perfectly still. So, a very good example of ventral vagal, I 'd say.
BTW, did my comments on your course evaluation form come through? I did this several weeks ago, when you just added it.
1. Ok so yes you would be right, but it is more correct to say that the dorsal vagal tone was higher than the ventral - there is still ventral (as she was not shut down and could not move - arguably there is still a little even then) - as she walked towards it we can see she was trying to engage but the dorsal took over. The sympathetic would be influenced by the dorsal tone (so sympathetic does not = flight but rather the tone of the vagus nerve (here dorsal) influences her energy. 2. yes she began to get confidence and used you for vagal as you were 'with' her 3. yes the social engagement you offered did not help (now the issue here is why is this?) 4. yes this would be right - so think about the influence you had here to help her
so the idea of the mapping is that you dont need one instant but you can think of a number of things - but even in your example (I can think of more from videos when she is more ventral tone than you describe here) - what does it feel like for her?
Yes, you said this so much better! Feel free to change my words into yours
no you have to do the map LOL - yes I am going to MAKE you because we are wanting to tap into how this feels for her hahahahaha
Aargh, c'mon Julie, I made an effort! Gimma a break, I'm going riding now!
this is your sticking point and once you do this what happens is that you will be able to not just see the vagus influence but feel and empathise how it may be for her......oh you will do it - well when you stop your ride.. the valuable thing about this exercise is once it is done the first time, we cannot then help but assess our horses body language (and the emotions they demonstrate) in a new light - one that the horse really appreciates
4 May 2020
Well, I had written down the above as my contribution for the course. I just can't put it in there, as I can't download the PP Map. If you want to insert it there, I'm happy with it, but if it's too much work or inappropriate, all good.
you said to me you can download Pdf's what format do you need? and nope you have not provided the answers from the map - because you resist saying what you feel that Carlotta is actually feeling hahahaha
I have been assessing Carlotta's body language for quite a while already and "listened" to her feelings. I have little setbacks occasionally, but try very hard to honour her feelings. And Valeta's. it is not about being inappropriate - I would say the same thing to you on line - what is Carlotta feeling in these moments?
OK, never mind, let's just give it a miss.
whatever
She told me that she was worried about that cone and relieved when we finished. I know I should have stopped earlier.
it is not about this but frankly if you were taking her feelings into account you would have stopped earlier - I suspect your view of her feelings is your perspective not hers - the map gives you an opportunity to say what she feels not what you have ascribed to her - so lets turn this around - she wanted to stop earlier - OK so if she could talk what would she say?
Stop it! I don't wanna do this!
ok no probs - if you ever want to brainstorm it let me know but you are so close to breaking the barrier - when you are comfortable to actually think about how she feels then this will be a HUGE breakthrough for your relationship. But if you dont trust me and the process it is better left until there comes a time when you may want to go outside your comfort zone
Yes, let's give it a break for a while. It's just so much frustration for me, especially my limitations when it comes to deal with technical issues. Give me a breather, and then we can get into it again, OK?
I have the feeling that I actually do think about how she feels, but maybe just not enough.
these are not technical issues they are simply asking you to attribute feelings and emotions to our horse - not our feelings and emotions but what the horse feels. You need to articulate how she feels - and I am not saying you dont - you need to type the words - this is the breakthrough I am talking about - once you actually articulate these feelings (and I have been there and it is shit) - a whole new world opens up - when you are ready I am here. ...if she could speak what would she say?
Depends on the circumstances. For the session with the cone, I think she would say: "This scares me, why are you doing this to me?" and "Can't we stick to the things we usually do? I feel so much better with them."
And when we are doing riding in the arena: "Look, I am brilliant. Just look what I can do. I feel GREAT!" And we are one and connected and so happy together.
When I come to the paddock to get her for a ride, she stands at the gate and says: "Working? Right? Well yeah, fine. Have a goody?" and "Wait a sec, let me push Valeta away, I want you for myself."
And today, when I asked her whether she would try piaffe just on verbal cue: "Um, let me sort out the trot first, I'll try. Oops, sorry, no, can't yet!" And I laughed and praised her for her effort. And she went straight into her PWs and Trots.
She also would say: "I know you have a vision about what we can achieve together. And I will work very hard to make it come true for you."
first thing - I feel???? not what you are doing to me but I feel..... worried overwhelmed.....???
2 - YES!!! see you are great to articulate the ventral vagus but you shut down when considering the dorsal (we all do at first)
3 - OK so are you saying she only wants you for goodies.....I am challenging you here!
3 - Ok so I cant yet GREAT - so your praise so this increases ventral...if she shows you this is working
4 - OK so working very hard ...what does she show? so close now to doing the map and yes I will do it for you! when you answer these questions
5 May 2020
So, Carlotta in the cone session: "OMG, this is so scary. I am so worried that this thing will do something to me! I am afraid it will snap at my belly if I go over it. I don't want to stay here and take the risk. I want to run outside and feel safe again."
3 - Hahaha, no, that is definitely not what is coming over to me. See, we just have this routine that in certain situations, she gets a goodie. Just as a thank you from me. For example in the paddock, before we go to work. Or after work, while unsaddling, I give her and handful of chaff. And she expects it and visibly waits for it. What she says then: "Thanks, Yvonne, yes, I know I did a good job and tried very hard. Ooh, my goodie. Lovely. I knew I deserve it."
Second 3 - Yes, she is so delighted about what she can do and is so happy to do it for me. And loves it when I acknowledge it and am very well aware that she WANTS to make this effort for me. So, she says: "YAY, I did that panther walk so well. See how I threw my legs, let my hind legs follow, arched my neck and lifted myself? I'm a star, right?! I can do it, oh boy, yes, I can!"
And: "Piaffe? Hm, this is so difficult. You know that I have to overcome my lateral preferences, and be patient, it will take time. Working on it... Here, I am trotting, and trotting beautifully! See how I can do slow-mo, elevated trot! Brilliant, eh?! OK, watch out, I'm trying piaffe now! Oops, I need more time to build up my muscles and coordination for this. But here are 2 steps of passage instead! Like it?"
4 - She always comes up with creative things and never ceases to amaze me. Like when she develloped that lovely "spanish walk" almost all on her own from just a few hints from me. Or when she improves herself all the time. From that grumpy posture in the beginning a few years back to all that proudness and beauty. She tries to cadence her trot when I just think about it. There are glitches, and we have a long way to go, but she is always so very willing to do her best and beyond. Or the other day, when she said: "Yes, that canter to the right I just couldn't do it for a while. But look, now I think I can. Here are 2 steps. Good, eh?!"
I will try and get my head into this later on - I am finishing off some other stuff at the moment and my head needs to stay where it is hahahaha
5 May 2020
OK was just about to write on your map - so what are you saying is the sympathetic (trigger), the dorsal (trigger) and the vagal (glimmer). I assume your first was sympathetic trigger? and therefore what word would you use to describe this emotion..... vagal is 'second 3' what word would you use to describe her emotions here?...I cannot see a dorsal - what about the times she walks away and watches in the direction of whatever is past the camera?
1 - (for the cone): overwhelming fear maybe. Or fright. second 3: serene contentment. Pride. dorsal: Lack of interest. Slight irritation.
7 May 2020
sorry your shorthand is a little too short - I cannot see a dorsal - what is your dorsal story? dorsal is not a lack of interest though or irritated, it is moving towards displacement, shut down
Oops, got the term wrong. Hm, whe she he walks away and watches in the direction of whatever is past the camera, I felt this is what I described in "dorsal". Maybe a feeling of Annoyance as well.
if it is annoyance it is not dorsal - you are very stuck on dorsal - Ok so assuming it is - why is she doing it?
So, for a dorsal situation: the other day, while we were in the arena, a car slowly drove past and a dog trotted alongside. Niko, one of our dogs, was in the garden (just next to that road) and suddenly stormed towards the car and dog, madly jumping up and down at the fence. Carlotta got a big fright and wanted to spin and run which I stopped (as I was in the saddle). She was extremely tense, but stopped and trembled. I talked to her and calmed her and she stood. But she definitely was very scared. So this might be such a situation. I would describe her feelings as shere terror and ready to go into explosion or shutdown.
She did calm down quickly afterwards. That was definitely the last time I allowed one of the dogs to be outside when I do something with the horses.
if it is annoyance it is not dorsal - you are very stuck on dorsal - Ok so assuming it is - why is he she doing it?
I only used that term (in "), so you knew which part of your message I was answering to. Why is she doing it? Because I cannot make things interesting for her? Because she doesn't like that kind of interaction. Because it bores her?
Each time, I try, she is there very half-heartedly only. Maybe because she feels that it doesn't have any priority for me, as she is so very determined to do things for me that I love?
She does offer me PWs and playful movements while we are walking back to the paddock together. It's her decision and she gives me some beautiful movements quite often. And sometimes the crunches come at weird moments, as if she wants to draw my attention back to her. When we had that cone session, we walked away from the cone when I saw that it was too much for her, and she suddenly started a beautiful PW, then did a canter transition, very elevated. Then stopped and put her muzzle into my hand.
no that is sympathetic not dorsal and the shaking and shivering is her return to regulation, Annoyance cannot be dorsal as to be annoyed means there is some mastery in thought and presence. Boredom is not dorsal for the very same reason. As I have said you are stuck on dorsal - perhaps you have horses that have never been overwhelmed or feel that they ' need a moment' dorsal is about the horse not about you and to think along the lines that she does not have priority for you makes it about you not her. I could be wrong but I see Carlotta being conflicted in some videos and she needs to take a moment and put her attention elsewhere - in those moments her ventral is low - but this is your exercise not mine. Dorsal is though the hardest as we kick ourselves thinking we should have seen it but did not and proceeded along - what about the times that she walked away from you and you had to sit there and read a book? what would you call these times?
yes often the crunches are to get our attention I see that too â¤1
what about the times that she walked away from you and you had to sit there and read a book? what would you call these times?: Vacation moment for her mind and soul.
Or recovery mode from something that was too strong for her to be comfortable with. She often does a crunch or two at the end of a resting period in her favourite arena corner. I let her stand with reins on her withers, make sure to breathe and smile and just wait. Also do some gentle talking, just for social interaction. We do this several times per session, each time after a task which was difficult or which she did particularly well.
Then she suddenly goes into a crunch. Then turns and starts walking. Maybe her way of saying: OK, that break was nice, but now let's carry on.
You: Dorsal is though the hardest as we kick ourselves thinking we should have seen it but did not and proceeded along.
Another one I can think of, but not sure whether it is dorsal: After my accident in January 2018, I started riding again in early May, in the arena. In July, I thought "let's go out for a little ride around the block". Carlotta was a bit tense but walked off for 300 m, to the next corner. Then stopped and stared into the distance along the road. Then, very suddenly, made a 180° spin which unseated me and threw me off her and on my back (fortunately I already had my inflatable vest). She took off towards home, but when I called, she stopped some 50 m away on the side of the road and stood there, trembling all over. I walked to her, stroked and comforted her and we went home. She was quite shaky for the next few weeks, before going back to relaxation. I felt she was deeply wounded in her soul and that I had been very silly of me to ask her to go out on her own, knowing that she is nervous about this even in the best times.
Ok I am not sure what else I can offer you as an example - if you feel that a horse walking away during a clicker session is more likely a rest or recovery or taking, a vacation you may be correct - it is not my experience - it is usually displacement and or wanting to take a break FROM what they are doing - not rest but a break as things are just too much. You are doing all you can to lighten the moment and suggest that after this she socially engages with and does crunches - it is kind of justifying your conclusion that she needs a rest or recovery from something - this is not what I see on the videos when she walks away - she does not come back and offer crunches usually (but I am not saying that doesn't just saying I have not seen it)- I have said before in your last example if we have a horse running, spinning etc we have a high sympathetic (the dorsal kind but that is not what we are speaking about here with the dorsal).
maybe see if you can see what is happening in the video with Sharney - with the dorsal tone - see if that helps
thought of another one - when Star would walk away early on with the saddle pad and 'pretend' to yawn - he was not tired or needed a rest or vacation - he was strongly influenced by the dorsal vagal circuit - overwhelmed, feeling helpless - I think I find it easier to give you examples from my horses - it took me a long time to understand that it was a not a 'fake yawn'
Just went to the course and watched the 2 new contributions. Ahaaa! Got it now! Gosh, took me a long time
Have been thinking about what you said above about the situations when Carlotta walked away from me. Yes, I think you are right. It was too much, and I was too impatient and focused on the task to be able to understand and take into account her needs! Your vids helped a lot. And also Marianne's pp map of Nott. Who reminds me quite a lot of Valeta, BTW.
10 May 2020
OK, so here we go:
For the ventral vagal, it can stay as described. My key word would be pride or bliss (or both)
For the sympathetic, we can use whichever of the experience with the spin and turn and shivering. My key word would be fleeing from an unbearable situation. Or as Marianne said, avoidance.
For the dorsal: yes, let's go for the liberty sessions when she kept walking away from me and stood, looking in the distance. My key word can be: Carlotta feeling misunderstood, or left alone in her helplessness to make me understand. Not sure how to put this in one word.
yep great I think I can play with some words - will do it later - been doing the webinar editing and I need a rest hahahaha. With the maps the challenge with the dorsal is that we need to own the process but not attribute blame to ourselves. We are lucky if our horses have the confidence to show us how they feeling at any time. We do the best we can at the time, but the mapping helps us identify the kinds of behaviours that our horse demonstrates as a key to what is influencing our horse at the time - armed with that information we then can say OK this is happening so lets see what I can do to help lift the ventral and decrease the dorsal - hence the map to see what ventral looks like for our horse - make sense?
Yes, it does indeed. Whew, took you a long time to get me here, eh? This time, things were phrased (and shown) in a way that "clicked" with me and sunk in.
Gee, that dorsal stuff is kinda tricky - I now understand why you said earlier that we all struggle with it!
OK, thanks. Have a good rest, and well done for the webinar!
Too windy to ride, but I'll got out and play a bit with Carlotta
yep its fine, it took me years - you are allot quicker than I was. This is why I am doing the mapping examples and adding a video that kind of shows what came to mind - of course there are far more obvious times in my mind but I dont have videos and also I kind of think it is interesting when they are subtle - Sharney's dorsal was within a month of getting her - have fun - will be back later - the problem with the audio recording is that Kayce wanted to use Skype (whereas I would usually use Zoom). That then meant I had to record from the desktop which meant her voice had an echo - I could not clean it all up but she also had recorded and with hers - my voice has the echo but hers is fine - so yep I am editing BOTH audios to give one clear one and it takes so much concentration
Sounds like sisyphus work, eeek! Glad you are almost finished!
10 May 2020
We had a nice success today: My contractor has spread some bright orange sand in my house paddock, under the shelter, so it won't get soggy in winter. I had showed Carlotta the bit that was at the entrance the other day and she wasn't very sure about it, so I waited for her seeking, which she did, then put a hoof or two on it.
Today, before work, I took her the the shelter with the lots of sand in it. She had a look, thought about it, then calmly walked over it. The lead rope was completely loose the whole time and she was calm and relaxed.
fantastic
11 May 2020
From my Timeline:
A bit of sun here and there, alternating with lots of wet stuff from above.
Around mid-day, was dry enough to run outside and saddle Carlotta for a little arena ride. After which we worked briefly on preparing piaffe on the ground.
Was only the second session, but she had understood already that she is supposed to hold her hind leg up when I touch it with the longeing whip. We did a few reps, then I asked her for a bit of forward movement. Got a good try, so called it a day.
Impeccable timing, as the rain started pouring down right afterwards. Wrapped her in her comfy rug and took an extra armful of hay to the paddock. She is so polite that she followed me (and my hay) without the slightest attempt of snatching some.
23 May 2020
Worked a bit with Caroline's mare Serafina who has problems with having her feet handled. Back home, I felt the sudden urge to "talk" to Serafina and find out why she doesn't seem to want to communicate with Caroline.
Here is what I got (and told Caroline):
Woke up before 6 this morning and tried to connect with Serafina. First she didn't want to, but after a while, she showed me a picture of her hips/croup and a sea of flames, with black clouds above it. I asked about her hind feet, and she showed me how she lifted them up alternately very briefly, then set them down again immediately.
A bit later came a very weird feeling about her middle section, like a numbness or sadness, looked like a dull, grey surface.
And finally, in front of her appeared a wall, about chest-high, made of stone or brick, not sure. After this she disconnected. Was pretty weird, and I am not sure whether I got all this correctly. Maybe I'm completely wrong, who knows. But about the hind end, it felt like she needs treatment or healing.
Anway, just FWIW....
And her reply:
Wow. Yes you are correct, Iâm aware of her croup/pelvis area and her mid section. Working on it with nutrition and body wraps. Sometimes she will allow a bit of cranio sacral. Needs a whole lot more. Telling you that means she doesnât think Iâm listening- I must give her more attention- thank you
The grey in the mid section with mares is usually grief over foals.
4 June 2020
The paddock had dried up nicely, so we did our wet saddle blanket thing. Lots of cortos, a few largos (fast gait) which she offered herself, remembering that I had asked for this a few times before in certain spots. :-D
Also a bit of lateral just in the middle of the paddock, without the slightest fence for "help". Carlotta was a bit puzzled, but managed very well. She is really good with immediately switching her bum and shoulders to the desired direction.
Cheeky Valeta had taken the habit of hanging over the fence, grabbing it with her teeth and shaking it, so this time, I turned the power on! And guess what, she stayed nicely away from it! Hahaha.
After unsaddling, Carlotta and I went into the arena for a few minutes to practice a bit of feet lifting (pre-piaffe) and shifting weight back. Then I took her to the pedestal and she happily stepped on it with her front feet. I then got on it and asked her on again. Hm... *what* do you want? Ah, OK!
And the last challenge was inviting her to put all four feet on. That was a bit much, but she tried willingly and ended up with the 2 front and 1 hind on. We left it there for now.
By then, my nose was becoming a bit frosty and the moon was well on its way in the sky. So, wrapped Carlotta in her pajama and took her back to the paddock, where both horses got their dinner served. I chuckled a bit, because Valeta very quietly waited in some distance, even though the fence was open
6 June 2020
Just playing at bit with Carlotta. Practicing leg lifts, panther walk (she wasn't very keen), shoulder-in at liberty and stepping on a small paint lid with one front hoof.
This with me applying an "invisible lead", i.e. just imagining that she has a lead rope on and follows my soft touches on it. Unfortunately, I had placed the lid too close to the camera, so it is not in the picture, but the little toc sound when she steps on it, is easily to hear ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY76w5PNkGo&feature=youtu.be
We had a lovely riding session afterwards, but didn't take it on video. She offered me several core activations and a really spectacular spanish-type walk. Thank you, Carlotta.
8 June 2020
Had fun again with Carlotta yesterday. We played with hoof on lid, pedestal and pole straddling at liberty. Also some more lifting hind legs and shifting weight back. See my youtubes on my channel.
And she gave me a lovely riding session which I really enjoyed.
When I watched Christin and Wolfgang Krischke's (from Fürstliche Hofreitschule Bückeburg) online teaching about rein contact in the evening, I noted with pleasure that we seem to apply most of their suggestions by now. Yay! :-D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qssNdb0owpU&feature=youtu.be
My editing programme cut off the last bit and put it into a separate video, so here it is. It shows lining up at MB and me struggling my way out of the saddle. Carlotta is so forgiving when I bump her hip bones, while trying to anchor my big toe to get off! I also asked her for a core activation, but she chose to watch something in the distance, so I waited until she felt ready. She originally found it difficult to do a CA while still standing close to the MB, but seems that she now can
16 June 2020
The sky looked less threatening by late arvo, so jumped into my joddies and saddled my trusty steed.
I had just watched Christin and Wolfgang Krischke's online question-and-answers session about how to get a good canter and stop from canter.
So, of course, I itched to try it out. It was mainly via doing walk pirouettes, making a circle bigger (shoulder-in) then smaller (travers), making sure to look at inside ear of the horse and lifting your inside hand about the width of a hand, then asking for canter from the inward spiral.
Wolfgang and Christin recommend to make sure that you don't abruptly overwhelm the horse with your request, but give him a bit of warning by using your inner picture (imagining that you are gonna canter now) and a brief verbal cue (sortof) which is a short double clucking with your tongue.
After each request to one side, you change sides, i.e. canter to the left, then canter to the right.
After two good steps, make a downward transition to stop, praise abundantly. Do one to the other side, same procedure.
Do this without the "help" of the fence/rail, but just in the middle of the arena. Carlotta was a bit surprised to start with, but did what I asked. She doesn't like doing shoulder-ins and especially travers to the right, and offered me some spanish walk (her avoidance behaviour), but I just laughed and said: OK, nice, but can we try now?
After 2 steps of canter, we immediately stopped and I handed her her favourite goodie. Then asked to the other side, which she found a lot easier. Another goodie.
I repeated both sides once, then hopped off and end of session. Well done, Carlotta.
I must say: I was so focussed on the good walk-canter transition that I forgot a bit about the canter-stop one. She stops upon mere verbal cue, but I learned today that this is not desirable, as the horse tends to fall on the forehand when you don't give him a bit of support with a tiny squeeze of your fingers on the reins. We will work on this at the next ride.
18 June 2020
Nice ride out on this sunny winter day.
Chris saddled her beautiful Phoebus and guess whom I rode. Hahaha, yes, of course. :-D The two horses looked at each other with a certain mistrust, lots of flattened ears while we walked side by side, which gave us the opportunity to tell them that this was not on the agenda.
We had nice chats along the road, about good, subtle and effective training tools (which are seat, legs, focus, lightness etc) and how to improve our riding. Very interesting topic which we are both fascinated with.
Chris noted that it was only barely 4 months that she had started riding Phoebus (he only had known sulky races up to then), and how far he had already come. He worked pretty hard on the long tölt streches during the ride, so it was a relief for him when Chris finally asked him to pop into his lovely, elegant canter.
We went along Cahills Road, through the forest, then turned into Savage Hills Road. Lots of nice tölts and a long canter to enjoy. We took a photo at the road sign where we had taken one a year ago, with Chris leaning "exhaustedly" against it.
Carlotta also did very well, her out-on-the-trails canter is becoming more comfortable by now, and at one stage, I could hardly hear her hoofbeats, so well collected she was. Just for the fun of it, I asked her for a canter transition from the largo, but out came a crossfiring. Yukk. Tried again on the other hand, with the same result. Silly me, I should have known that she just *cannot* go into a correct canter from that gait and speed. Humans....
Was a very enjoyable ride, thanks, Chris. And Carlotta had a very pronounced sweat pattern all over her coat.
19 June 2020
Carlotta seemed a bit tired (or maybe had some muscle aches) from yesterday's ride, so we kept it very slow today, just working on walking, turning upon mirror seat and correct stopping.
Only asked for 2 walk-canters out of inward spiral, and she did it nicely. Only 2 or 3 strides, then I asked for stop. Hardly had the time to lightly squeeze my fingers and she stood already, and this time *not* on the forehand! :)
Once unsaddled, when she saw me come out of the tack room, she gave me a very shrewd look and started doing several core activations, as if saying: Yeah, I know, you usually ask for this when we are finisheed! Clever girl!
A potentially dangerous thing happended while I saddled her, and could have turned easily into disaster: I had bent down to pick up the girth and fasten it. She suddenly looked nervous and tense, so I wandered around her to see what had attraction her worry... and noticed that the girth was over the lead rope, i.e. the lead rope tugged against her belly and under the girth.
Yikes! I could feel her quivering inside, so veeeery slowly and with comfortting words, I unclipped the lead rope from her halter, then opened the girth in slow motion and took the rope out and fixed the girth again. Whew! Note to self: don't tie your horse too long!
I think that Carlotta managed to control herself because of all these months of patient working on getting over her anxiety. Thank you, Julie!
Map3 for Carlotta:
Ventral Vagal
Resources my horse uses Resources we can do together
nickering, offering core prompt verbal praise, she shows enthusiasm, activations and proud movements clicks and treats, stroking her neck, touching me with her lips, she proudly offers creative movements coming close and standing enthusiastically acknowledgeing her offers calmly with me
Sympathetic
trying to push through me, relax, step back, breathe, stand in neutral nervous feet moving, Bladder meridian, talking softly, wide eyes, wrinkles around give her time, move to something else mouth, walking away
Dorsal
chewing, looking into distance wait, do nothing, step back, soft eyes head relatively high, gently connecting thoughts, holding breath, tense body social interaction, bladder meridian
Julie:
I think your ladder is pretty spot on - just two things - you have wrinkles around mouth in the sympathetic - yes but it would have a dorsal influence - so the idea is that our body is holding still and this creates the wrinkles - and in the dorsal you have chewing - this is a sign that digestion is returning so that our state is changing from dorsal (up the ladder) so it is more an indication that we had a state change (down the ladder towards dorsal) but it was coming back up - make sense?
Yes, sounds right. The general feeling is that, when in dorsal or sympathetic, she switches towards VV very quickly - like she is able to find her safe place with very little "influence" from me.
yes and no - the states are always mixed - so there is always a bit of something in each so best here to say switching to a higher ventral vagal influence
This is so wonderful. I am particularly happy for her that she can be happy now. I am just working on a video to show it all in a simplier way - for next workshop
Good idea.
yes I think this is great for you and her also
4 July 2020
From the workshop:
Me: Maybe it can be useful if I share a few experiences from the past course.
Yes, I was worried about the freedom of choice and it took me quite some practice before I could "let go". Took even longer, before I stopped being my old demanding self, but instead waited for my horse to finish the thinking process and told me she was with me.
The above video is a big eye opener how we can move through the process. Julie does fun gymnastics, walking, hopping etc, and suddenly Star wants to join in. And Julie acknowledges it (social interaction).
You know, Julie, how often I wasn't patient when Carlotta said "no" to me and walked away, and how I went after her and made her come back and do things with me that *I* wanted her to do. Was a painful process at times to learn to overcome my old trainer self...
A great example what can happen is when I introduced Carlotta to the gymnastic mat. She was scared of it, and what did her human do? Yeah, right: I put her on the lead rope and used a combination of Clicker Training, micro shaping and negative reinforcement. And guess what: she tried very hard for me, but I only managed to deepen her fear and mistrust of the mat. Until I just stopped bringing the mat in, so she could have a break from all the stress.
Months have passed since, and I gradually have the feeling that I could give it another try. This time honouring her feelings and needs. Will report how it goes.
Julie: Oh Yvonne, you are being too hard on yourself - you and Carlotta have a wonderful relationship but I acknowledge it is hard to let go as we only have the information we have available to us at the time and we do the best with it. I had trouble at first letting go - especially as Star had terrible stress and although we had moments of joy it is not like it is now. When we have new information we can use it. And really the credit goes to you because I know there were times you wanted to give up but you did not and there is so much more to come - looking forward to seeing how the mat goes. I have some other ideas but lets see where Carlotta is up to now first.
2 July 2020
Yes, the one I sent you above. We started with trying to get alternate lift fromt the hind legs. You can cut that off, if you wish.
She didn't go away, so I suppose she doesn't mind the long whip.
The short one is uploaded now. Second one didn't work, because too long. Sorry, just saw that it is blurry, gnnnn....
the problem is that in the video I saw there was no play there was reactions with her back legs - she was not lifting them she was responding to the whip as a reflex, and I do not want to encourage that kind of whip as it hold negative connotations to so many horses - the levade needs some work and the main work is we are not starting off with engaging the core and her back legs are not stablised as a result. I am not saying you cant do levades but for my workshop I discourage anyone to be asking a horse to bend hocks in standstill - so if the levade had a good core hold and then you immediately ran off and she followed this would be different but there is so much biomechanical literature out there now about the dangers of bending (and even stellning) and the standstill without movement - this was not too long it was just a good video and thats what holds the gigs but that is what handbrake is for.
but I can help you with the levade but not for the workshop and I really dont want to encourage a repeat with the lack of core engagement as this really damages the hocks. The video you loaded now was an attempt to help her with the stuff going on across the road yes? but see she was looking and seeking - I did not see any fear or anxiety just 'wonder' - tell me what you saw in this one?
to help with the levade I need to see a piaffe first - so show me this but one attempt only - as it really does place strain - Sharney does a great levade and she has never been 'drilled' - I created it on cue with her playing but only after she could do a piaffe and then I would only click and treat it when there was equal weight on the hinds and core engagement, otherwise I would run straight off as if this was the beginning of play and no click
there is also some 'up' problems I see - she is hanging with the base of her neck and Sharney was like this at first so the way I got the 'up' rather than out (hanging by the neck) was to run forward and treat it as a game. Problems with the levade are created by problems with the piaffe
2 July 2020
Oh, I see! All this trying to get her hind legs lifting alernately is meant as prep work for piaffe, but I think I am doing it wrong. We are a far way away from being able to do it.
Her "levade" is really a rearing, but if you think that it doesn't do her any good, I will stop asking for it. Don't want to damage her, of course.
For today's vid, yes it was a lot of seeking and observing. She got a bit anxious when, in the beginning, I had taken her very close to those guys in their high basket, and when they started to noisily unscrew the transformer box and drilling, she was worried. But in the arena, she was fine and quite happy, as it felt to me.
I didn't want to challenge her more with riding her while the guys were there. But did a short one half an hour ago, and it was lovely. She was in a good mood and gave me her high canter leaps. Got it on video, and it's processing right now. Will be interesting to see whether it looks as goos as it feels
Not sure that I understand your last paragraph. How did you teach the piaffe? I would be very keen to learn it!
3 July 2020
I think the piaffe has to come first (which I think is harder than a levarde) - I think all carrying weight on the hinds in standstill is risky but my memory is that the risk reduces for the levarde through the piaffe - in the sense that the strength and flexibility built up in the piaffe allows the horse to cope better when all weight is finally transferred. I think though it is more than a rear for her and she can do it, but be careful about the weight distribution
oh the 'up' issue in the levarde...she is using the base of her neck to get the momentum to stay 'up' so if you look the base of her neck is more forward from the rest of her body rather than be in a line - so part of her weight is on the base of the neck rather than being all taken by the hinds.
in the short video I thought from what I could see she was going well and I would have encouraged this as SEEKING which means no clicking and treating or asking for any mastery moves unless she showed anxiety - let her work it out just be there for her if she needs it. The leg work with the piaffe.....gee it was initially free shaped from the trot. I got the trot as slow as I could and clicked the hell out of it and then asked for more extension from the shoulders - it has been a long time since I have done this - I must go back to it and see what happens
3 July 2020
Yes, you are right, should have done that and not "test" right away
Hmmmm, that might kill it for Carlotta. She is naturally gaited and shows practically NO trot at liberty. Was a hard job to teach it to her under saddle and we are still struggling with it. But thank you for the offer
yea that might be right, so focus on asking for the 'rear' from the core and then run off for a while - this will help her strengthen from the hind
4 July 2020
Here is the vid with Carlotta's cute canter experiments and my delighted squealing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AIRtoT0j1A&feature=youtu.be
Note how I acknowledged that she didn't want to do canter to the left this time and allowed her to change sides
yes good work - I could not hear the squealing but she looks allot more relaxed - just one thing - your chin is starting to 'drop'
Oops! She is still using her neck in the faster and more expressive movements, but I hope this will eventually get better. Don't want to discourage her when she offers me such fantastic stuff!
Usually I am a lot better now with keepin my head up. But from time to time, when I concentrate very much on something, it can happen that my chins drops. chin*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxfrB_lJh8g&feature=youtu.be
OK so this mat video is really good (but too long)- can I ask you whether you think that there is too much environmental stimulus going on with that wind? What I would do is to help her at the mat develop mastery and confidence being near it first and treat her on the mat - so ask for whatever she is going to enjoy (in the standstill) and when you click treat by putting them on the mat - only if she does not hesitate to take the treats this way - she seemed to be fine when you put them down the first time - if she was hesitant then we would begin with treating from our hand . Now this was too long a wait at the mat - and see just under a minute as soon as you walked away (and broke off social engagement) she walked in the opposite direction - so this tells me she needs you close so she can have enough confidence. The second time you walked away she nearly went to the mat but then followed you - this is not an exercise in autonomy - and the reason is because we want to halve the time you are there with her at the mat and we want to increase her confidence and mastery to the mat - so my idea with this is going to be reconsolidation of her memory - we will change the anxious memory of the mat to one of confidence - this means changing her mind literally. So next time go to the mat - ask for CA or whatever you want - even walk towards it with a PW - click and treat at first from your hand and then see how she is with the treat being placed on the mat - we are only after the tactile feel of the mat on her muzzle for this so dont push it - ask for more confidence and mastery from her and then go play - we want the end (away from the mat) to be more 'exciting' than being at the mat - this is the first step to reconsolidating memory - can you send me this and I will start a video diary and lets see what comes of it
oh and when you walk towards the mat walk with her and follow her lead - so if she stops then you stop and increase your social engagement and then when she seems confident see if she would like to walk towards it with you
All great advice, Julie, thank you. I wasn't very sure about what was appropriate, so at times I walked away to give her a break. Not a good choice apparently. How do I "go away" with her?
She is fine with eating from the mat, we have done this repeatedly last time. She doesn't seem interested in doing PW at the moment. But very happy to offer lots of little CA's.
Will put this one in DB for you, and yes, good idea to create a video diary. Could be so helpful for many people, especially when they see everything that a human can do... and hopefully in the following, how to improve it.
Gosh, are we putting ourselves into another project again?!
Must read your instructions several times, so I don't forget things for the next attempt. Better work on this project a lot, as I have offered to Caroline to lend her my mat, once she comes to this stage.
panther walk with her away from it, run away, play with her - if PW is not happening just run and play - Oh we are best to at least plan for the video diary - it is very hard to start from scratch after the 10th video hahahaha
what you also need to do (in play) is develop a cue for canter - a voice cue and then skip into canter yourself - ask for a little 'levarde' and run away - anything that she will find enjoyable - core work is not enjoyable enough for this
Hehehe, true!
We kinda have developped a cue for canter, i.e. me doing a little hop, and she happily follows it most of the time. She knows (und hopp Galopp) as verbal cue under saddle. I used it a lot in the beginning, but not much anymore. Have also introduced a little double-cluck with my tounge as supportive cue and prepare her to what is coming. Will try both and see how it goes.
Yes, good idea with just running with her. One day she will be happy to PW again, I am sure.
She goes through phases, as it shows. Have never tried the running away. Will see what she thinks of it.
you will be surprised when she discovers she can run with you
Your word in God's ear, hahaha.
hahahahaha at first she will be hesitant, but look at it as exercise for you. gotta say Ruth is right into the PVT
She kinda canters with me, but this is more in slo-mo. Will try today. . It was a hard piece of work to drag her into it, believe me. And it took ruse!
Maybe mine will end up the same. I bet Valeta would... if she doesn't thunder right over me in her enthusiasm, hehehe.
use a long pool noodle to keep her a little away - changing directions often usually fixes it
She is a lot more polite now, but gets carried away easily. And it takes quite a lot to "impress" her.
Of course, it started to rain again while I was in arena with Carlotta. The vid split up in 2. Couldn't upload first part into DB, as it was 2.2 GB, and it still takes only the ones under 2 GB. Uploaded the rest, where Carlotta starts to want to play with me. Greg says he can put the longer one on our website and send you the URL, if you wish. Otherwise I can send you the youtube link.
I have the feeling that Carlotta definitely is becoming interested.
Ok so just send me the you tube link, I wish Greg would look at handbrake as it is safe and will compress it nicely - so this is good though
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iqi8nVMEnQw&feature=youtu.be
Or I have to make sure that the vids are all under 2 GB. Before, I could load much bigger ones to your DB, as I remember.
so these may be out of order but the youtube one - she does not want to take it from the mat - dont know what happened before this maybe it is in the other file but I will check soon, so as she does not want to eat it, we leave it and develop something we can reinforce her for - personally if this happened I would just treat from the hand, saying, ok you want them from my hand - here they are -but you are treating it as autonomy again and this is not what we want here as she has said nope not on the mat. So good at 1.16 you get up and give her the treat - see if we click and treat then this means we give her the treat - we dont make the treat contingent on something else (approaching the mat) - as she did nothing more but you treated to the mat you are now luring - so your attempts at play are jumping up and down - what we want to do is move away - not stay with the mat - so maybe some practice at play first - can she follow you and run - does this excite her? what is that that makes her happy and motivated? maybe think about the personal profile map again here and work on what makes her masterful and confident - we need to establish these parameters first.
67050113 that was in drop box - is this the beginning of the youtube one? There was nothing much before, she came to me and then I threw a treat on the mat. Tried to walk away with her a couple of times, but she decided she wanted to stay near the mat and eat treat from it, as it felt to me. It was only at the beginning where she didn't want to go close and eat from mt.
so we dont want restrained work here - as she starts to pick up speed you want to change directions and run in the opposite direction - think of this as a game of catch - when she does something wild with her body in movement thats when we click
no she wanted to stay near the treat not the mat it was clear she did not want to eat from the mat
At the end of this vid, she agreed to walk away with me. The second (very short) video was just after this.
it was only at the end of the youtube video that she ate from the mat - for the bulk of that video you were on the mat
OK so the one in dropbox is after the mat Yes OK so I cannot see what the click was for at the mat?
OK, will have to remember to change directions and play catch me. OMG, here I am, back into it again....
5 July 2020
we have to first establish what she loves to do - so lets go back to the personal profile mat first with these new eyes - what is it that increases the ventral vagal? yes hahahahaha but that is because it is your agenda not hers - if she does not go straight to the mat to eat - we leave it there and go and play AFTER we give her the treat we promised
lets see if she likes the 'catch' game....does she like to chase the noodle? we need to work out what it is that she loves to do - what is a reinforcer for her other than treats? BTW you dont need to send you tube videos to me if they can be loaded in dropbox in the native format - as I can download them from youtube - just would rather the native without the compression if that is possible (i.e when they are under 2 gig)
Yes, will keep this in mind.
So, let's see, what does she like? She loves doing CA's or rocking her weight back. Loves to pull her tongue out. Likes to go to pedestal (but this isn't very solid yet, as we only did a few times). Likes to walk with me when she's in the mood, which isn't always. Will have to try poolnoodle again, haven't done it in ages. I don't like running around with them, and I think Carlotta feels this. But will give it anothr try tomorrow and see what comes out.
Ok so the thing is we need to play - why dont you like running around? you will look allot better than I do if you run (or skip) we have to find the play in her
play changes the neurochemicals in the brain - does she play with any other horse? another thing - how is her biome? the reason I ask is that gut biome can make a huge difference in how she feels and utilises the food we give them and when I see her it feels to me her body is not utilising the minerals (I assume you give her some) that are in her feed
7 July 2020
Just quickly: loading a short mat video into DB now. Sorry, not time to chat atm.
8 July 2020
Ok so tell me (when you have time) what was your intention here? where is the play?
9 July 2020
I was just checking whether she can stay near the mat and remain fairly relaxed in that sequence. Had to keep it short, because your DB doesn't accept anything beyond 2 GB.
Made another one of the play we did afterwards. Just loading to DB right now (sorry didn't have time to do it yesterday). She still isn't overly keen to run and play with me, but there was a bit of a start this time at least. She seems to prefer the levades and think they are fun.
You asked whether she plays with other horses, well she does with Valeta from time to time. This morning, when I brought out their hay, they both went into an happy whirl of running, bucking and kicking, then went into a young stallion game together with levades, and then into canters with flying lead changes. I laughed so hard that I forgot to put the hay down, hahaha.
dont cut things short because db has a limit, just load on youtube if that is the case, or reduce your resolution a little - if she is not doing any damage to herself let her do her rears but make sure you change direction often
This is the longer vid from the run and hop session: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB57OjDEJoE&feature=youtu.be
That happened just after the standing near the mat. The short one in DB is the end of the session.
Yes, I know, I know, I shouldn't have asked her to come with me some time during the video!
the last couple of seconds was the only time to be honest I saw play in her - allot of the time it was on your agenda and often you were pulling her way from her corner. When she finally did what pleased her you let her know this was fine and the next time (the last rear) she went into play- a bigger deal should be made of this for her - heaps of treats heaps of clicks - BUT I dont know what happened after this, to stop when there was so much pleasure in her may also be punishing, so what did she do after the video finished? and why was the mat there if you wanted to instigate play? hahahaha
unless now the DB one shows this - will check now
Ok so when she starts to shake her head at around 1.12 this is where you click - when there is more expression and when she began going into the canter click - dont wait till she slows or stops at first. So any expression is what you click for - we know her little rears are what she wants to do so make a big deal of these and then slowly run forward and see what happens - but this is good as she is starting to show expression and we are learning what will make her masterful
it is funny in the DB one you dont click near enough, yet usually I am telling you to reduce your clicking - so lets click for any expression that she wants to engage - the more confident we can get her that this is fine to do the more she will begin to show her true bad ass
Bahahahahaa! You know how hard it is for me not to click or to click less! So, yesterday, each time I clicked, I cringed and thought: Oh sh..., I will get told off again!
Do, today I ran out to do another one with her, and even set aside the riding for now. First she stood there for long minutes and didn't want to engage. I sat on my pedestal and waited...
Finally it happened, so I enthusiastically acknowledged and clicked each good movement into the desired direction.
After this, I spontaneously decided to try a second short session of teaching spanish walk.Dunno wheter you have seen yesterday's vid on my Timeline about the first attempt. This time, it was more our approach, as I did it at liberty and using the pointer and no -R. The session is very short, so can put it to DB for you.
Will send you the link to the longer one (10 minutes, once it's up on youtube). Got so enthusiastic about her when she started to walk in PW, that I named the wrong legs
OK good so we click for enthusiasm in play so head tosses, rears canters etc. I am not a fan of spanish walk because of the lack of core work involved - I will check your timeline and see what happened. so the idea is we click for wonderful stuff not 'normal' stuff LOL
OK, I tried very hard. Hope I didn't do anything silly.
yea I am making some comments now - my stuff cannot be mixed the way you are doing it on your video on your time line
Yes, I know, but I changed things around a bit today and gave it a try. Maybe you will hate it
yep not a fan
She was being creative again today. Towards the end of the longer session, she started to "sit down". I rewarded her for it and praised her a lot, but I am not so sure that this is a beneficial thing to do, as she is coiling her loins strongly for it. Maybe I should not take her offer in the future.
It is still quite difficult to get her to move, and she is suspicious if I move too much. Lots of work to do to "unblock" her.
I am not sure what you mean - she is being reward by you in the past for the 'sitting' down and she has to coil for this to happen as you want the 'levarde' rather than a little rear and move forward - you need to move forward when she does this but you dont want to - you seem 'stuck' and praise her for it - so she keeps this up
that video I saw today she was moving wonderfully - you just forget to click for any movement and wait till she stops to click
Have a look at them when they are uploaded (the short one should be there already). I had the feeling that she is just offering me something new (sitting down without a haybale), and this doesn't feel good. Sitting up from a lying down position should be better, if at all). Sorry, got carried away yet again by her creativity.
10 July 2020
Ok so I am not sure where the 'sitting down' is? can you tell me what video and where you are speaking about? as I cannot really understand your analogy now I have watched the videos. The short one you loaded last was SATS - it was better as she was not as reactionary but you are still reinforcing her back leg lift (and you are not noticing). The longer one was more about you trying to get her to do something, you were chasing her allot and each time she wanted to take a moment you went to her and although it was great what you were doing she would move way and you would follow her. I think that this can easily happen when we have an idea what we are trying to do - play (and discovering what she loves to do) has to be on her terms and there were glimmers of moments when she wanted to do something but then she stopped - the best and what we want to aim for was the videos we saw yesterday when she was head tossing and cantering a little - and those last two rears (especially the last one) you could actually see her expression change. The long one you loaded last seemed to have you behind her when she moved most of the time and when she began to move quicker you were running behind her (like herding) rather that at her shoulders or in front (playing tag) - I think the better way to look at this is do you want to play? yes great no? OK only on her terms and each time she comes to you make a big deal of click and treat - any play make a big deal click and treat - when you go get her as soon as her speed picks up click and treat and make a big deal.
But we do see what she enjoys and this is her panther walk and her 'levarde' - you seem to have a little signal for this also I have noticed and you touch her back - now this puts you in a great position for her with the mat - remember this exercise was to discover what she likes and what gives her confidence. Do you remember the video I did introducing Star to the pad for the first time? the one that caught Sarah's eye and caused her to contact me? this is how I want to see Carlotta approach the mat - being able to rely on you when she is worried, use her confidence skills to get closer to it - I will try and find it as a separate video and send you a link
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mgcbrb9pna52efu/Star%20Pad_intro.mp4?dl=0
Oh dear, oh dear... OK, one by one: the "sitting down" is in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MH5NKCWCUc&feature=youtu.be
from 7:55 to 8:39. This is the longer one in your DB. She how she coils her loins in it, so her croup goes down?
When I walk/run behind her and "chase" her, it is because I can't catch up with her and fall back. I try very hard to stay at her shoulder, but as soon as she goes faster, I just can't.
For the shorter one, yes it is a sort of SATS indeed, but a bit more pushed, as I focussed on and rewarded the stretching forward of a front leg. I see that she also offered hind leg towards the end, but to me it feels that this was because she is starting to figure out how to move forward, as she does shortly after. I thought I could do it that way, so she doesn't get frustrated like with the attempt with -R (the vid on my Timeline, where my dog is with us).
Ok I would not call this sitting but I have been telling you for ages not to encourage this but the more you click this the more she will take weight on the hocks and the only way she can do this is to coil
As soon as she goes faster change directions
The Star video is great and I will try to use the same approach. Might still need quite some time before it will happen, as Carlotta is not as connected to me as Star is to you, and willing to come to me as a safe haven. But I see what you mean. Will try some more.
Oh, I thought she was coiling her loins there.
I tried the changeing directions when she goes faster, but that makes her stop. sigh
You need to keep moving yourself and she will come it takes time. Yes she was coiling rather than rotating the ribs
Thanks. Will see what happens today. I had a feeling that she enjoyed yesterday's playtime and brought her inner self to me, thus forgiving me for the -R session the other day.
That's great
Just to clarify: do you want me to videotape and send you each and every session? Putting today's 2 into DB now. Had to interrupt, as neighbour stopped and wanted a chat, so had anoter go after she left.
Carlotta still doesn't want to run with me much. I tried to turn into other direction once, but again she stopped and didn't follow.
She also wasn't very amused that I didn't click most of her PWs, as she thinks they are lovely and deserve treats.
Will be interested to hear your thoughts about it. Once the vids are up.
Up to you. If you can great. It takes a while before they follow but need to see it to confirm what us happening. I would be wanting to extend the pw time now and the click.
Yes, no worries, can film and send you each session. OK, relieved that I am allowed to click pw again
You were never not to. I did not say don't click pw ?
I seem to remember you did?
Nope but tell me about when and I will see what I said
I scrolled back, but can't find it. So I must have misread something. Sorry. Anyway, it wouldn't make sense.
maybe you got it mixed up with spanish walk as I would not encourage a spanish walk as it collapses the core?
Ok so the first video - golly I wish you would rename them. so why are you jumping? you go towards her and she walks back - so stop and wait. The head down was nice but I feel she was offering an appeasement behaviour - kind of like 'calm down mum' and you responded - good and see when you approached her this time she did not walk but but offered some CA - but you are pointing towards her lumbar not her withers...why? That was a nice CA at 1.47 with the pointer. See at 4.04 she is walking away from you but you follow her and block her off - you need to let her move away - this tells you that she is not coping with what you are asking - but you are still chasing her then when she moves - if you are behind her you need to move back and allow her to come to you. She felt really proud at 4.48 - wonderful - but after that she walked away from you but you followed - if she is not 'with' you - we need to stop and wait - then she goes to her corner - you need to think about whether going to her corner is her telling you to 'wait mum' and then you click and treat the bending of the haunches (you have to stop that LOL) - it is not good, it puts strain on her hocks and the we get the coil happening when it is reinforced so often - see she knows - she did not even want the treat when you gave it to her - why? I suspect this causes her conflict as this hurts horses - the jump at the end was nice as this is what she wants - but again you click it rather than run forward when she does it and click for her coming to you after the rear
the SATS in the second one was better - she was less reactionary except clicking for the pawing I would not do but ask straight away again - but it is really her back legs that are reactions rather than lifting
lets try going to the mat ala Star and lets keep it short and try and tune into her and see what happens - remember we dont have to get to the mat in the first session
Golly, do I have difficulties with this.... will try again tomorrow all of the above. What do you bet I will forget half of it in the enthusiasm of the moment. But I will eventually get it.
Can I put the halter and lead rope on for a couple of times when going to the mat? I feel she will not go there for ages otherwise. Of course I wouldn't tug or anything just have it on and walk with her.
Finally had a little ride just now, and she was wonderful and so cooperative. At this stage she seems to enjoy this a lot more than the playing - maybe due to the fact that I am not doing things right, so she can't feel comfy with me doing weird thing on the ground?
Did a very brief SATS and PW after unsaddling. I stood by her shoulder just pointed forward with the pointer and said right leg and left leg, and she almost immediately started a beautiful PW with lifed shoulders. Saying this, I certainly won't do any of the -R stuff for this anymore, she is just so darn good with this by now.
it seems to me that you are not focusing on her as a whole when you are with her - so you have something in your mind you want to do and that is your focus, rather the focus should be looking for her reactions and what she is telling you she wants to do - I think that because you are that focused she is feeling she is not listened to. If you want to put the halter on it is up to you but listen to your words here - 'she may not go there for ages' and 'for a couple of times' you dont want it to be a drill and you want to see if you and she can connect and she can be confident to approach - so if you must use a halter and she will get there to the mat quicker than if she were free - what is that saying? could it be saying the halter and lead connects for the social engagement or that she feels she has no choice once tack is on? I guess the same goes for riding for me - she may be more confident in the consistency of your signals when riding or is it that there is tack on? thats great about the PW and SATS after though - what about trying to get the PW at different speeds? so speed it up a little...Star loves that
11 July 2020
All good thoughts, Julie. Will get back to you later, after chores finished.
Now...., yes I knew you would say this. And yes, it is certainly true, but it is something that is very hard for me to realize. See, I am an "achiever" and spending weeks and months on something with not much apparent succes is completely against my nature. This is why I gave the mat a miss a while a ago.
It was just too much frustration for both of us. I feel that Carlotta doesn't like the mat, and I don't like it because she doesn't like it. So it's pretty negatively laid out for both of us. So I wonder whether we really have to go through this process. After all, the other work you helped me with has shown wonderful effects, as she has learned to show autonomy very often and has learned a lot more self-confidence and the skills to get over her anxiety. Like yesterday, when I saddled her, she suddenly stared over to the sheep paddock, very high-headed and snorting. I waited until she settled down a bit, then walked with her to the nearest corner of the arena and let her look. Did a bit of bladder meridian after a little while, and she deactivated and was calm again. This is such a gift that she can do this!
Carlotta has let me know that she is MY horse and exclusively my horse and that she doesn't want anybody else. She is very determined to help me realise my vision (beautiful classical movements) and works very hard on this dream, giving all she has to create beautiful movements and offer them to me.
About gear: when I was young (in my 30s), I used to ride my purebred arab mare Nouira bareback and in a halter to and from the paddock (about 2 km away) without any difficulty. But I am old now and my body refused to obey me at times, so the saddle and head gear is necessary. I finally found a saddle that fits both me and her perfectly, and offered her many choices for her favourite headstall. She hated the various snaffles I sugested and went in them like a barge on the river Murray. Not only because of the bit, but also because of my lack of subtlety at the time. She goes well in a noseband, also out on the trails. I am sure I could ride her in a halter, but I don't like bitless riding, it lacks so much of finesse. So, once my eyes and feel had finally been opened to true lightness in my cues, I asked her about shank but and tried a good half dozen. She decided on the one we now use and is happy with it.
For the social engagement vs "forcing": yes, I hear you and it makes a lot of sense, and I so wish I could see you work and play with her - I am sure you would do wonderfully. Unfortunately, as said above, it is not my thing to wait in this particular case. Each time I try, I get frustrated, and I bet so does Carlotta.
I am a rider first, second and last, and doing things on the ground is something I am happy to do here and there, but my main love is riding and working things out in the saddle, together with my horse. I am well aware that I will never be a riding master, and far from it. But Carlotta and I have so much fun together and enjoy doing our private stuff and the results that emerge from it.
You know that it is fun to do the mat work with Valeta, and I would love to see Carlotta be able to enjoy it too. I will continue to try, but boy, is it hard...
So yes, yesterday I put the halter and leadrope on and walked around with her, always leaving the rope very long and loopy. Eventually turned towards the mat, always ready to stop with her if she chose to. We came pretty close to the mat after a minute or two (about 2 m) and stood there together. She offered a CA, which I rewarded, then threw a handfull of chaff on the mat when she did another one. She walked to it and ate it. We walked around a bit more, then she suddenly turned towards the mat and started a little PW. Big praise and end of session.
I have somehow the feeling that having the lead rope on gives her the feeling that I am holding her hand, which gives her more confidence. Maybe I am completely wrong, but maybe not?
Today, after the 10 minute ride, we walked together in some PW. She did great, and I tried to speed up. She agreed, but at this stage isn't overly keen yet on going faster. I can get it quite easily under saddle (power trot) at times, but mostly let her choose the speed. Today, after upping her momentum in PW, she suddenly started doing her elevated canter. We ended on this one. Raining now, as it will over the next few days, so not sure when I will be able to film next time.
you dont have to go through anything - it is all your choice - you need to think about what achievement means for you and what it can mean for her and whether you and she are on the same path with what this may mean - when there is a vaccination for COVID I will come down!
Looking forward to it!
Have done a bit of homework, putting up 2 personal profile maps for Carlotta. To you to decide whether you want to use them in the workshop:
Carlotta and the mat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiOB8XCFJfA&feature=youtu.be
0:00 to 0:15 dorsal vagal: immobilzed Feeling: worry
0:16 to 0:55 sympathetic: moving with little fidgety moments, influeced by some dorsal vagal. A hint of ventral vagal when she think about eating from the mat. Feeling: insecurity
0:55-1:12 more sympathetic. Things become too much for her and she decides to move away. Feeling: Too much, can't cope!
Carlotta displays her power walk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA_lNFmf-0c&feature=youtu.be
0:00 to 0:09 Ventral vagal. She happily shows me her power walk. Feeling: confidence
0:10 to 0:25 Ventral vagal. She puts in more effort to do it beautifully, with an extra Eureka moment at 0:19 (shoulder lift). Feeling: pride in herself
0:26 to 0:30 Ventral vagal. More lovely steps, then coming to stop happily and relaxed. Feeling: Contentment and relaxation
OK thats great will work on them for you when my head is clear - nearly time to get my act in gear for the horses â¤1
Love your comment on my comment in the fear section.
Hope my coming forward will unblock the others, so they dare to say something too. Ruth is very nice.
Yeah, off to do the horses.
yep for sure and yes thanks and some people wont ever contribute and thats fine, it is what they feel safe about but the more that we can keep the conversation going the easier it will be - I work on a 50% success rate and three of them are getting together next weekend so fingers crossed
Ruth told me that it feels so good to her that she can be in this workshop together with me - makes her feel at home, I suppose.
oh that is so good - so have some internet play dates!!!
We communicate by email, as she isn't on FB and such.
do a live stream or send her a video and she send you one and see what happens No idea how to do a live stream.
But she is subscribed to my video channel and watches them all
Not easy to make a video that I can watch, as I don't have one of those modern phones who do all sorts of features. And Ruth hasn't figured out how to do another kind.
I hope she will send a few to the workshop, so I can see them there.
no not a live stream as you dont have the equipment - I done use phones to watch videos i use the PC - yes I hope you BOTH send videos for the coaching
We both will. Just let me know when you want one.
12 July 2020
0:00 to 0:15 dorsal vagal: immobilzed
Feeling: worry........so for me it is her using the coping mechanism of taking her mind outside the arena - so she is actually mobilised but she is using it in another way - I agree that there is dorsal and I feel there could be a case for mobilisation...?
0:16 to 0:55 sympathetic: moving with little fidgety moments, influeced by some dorsal vagal. A hint of ventral vagal when she think about eating from the mat.
Feeling: insecurity ........see here at .32-42? I feel this is her taking her mind away again - I think that this is a tell for her. Yes sympathetic I think though and med-high dorsal but there are times when you engage with her and she has ventral a little lower than dorsal - especially when she approaches the mat with you early in the sequence and then yes when she follows the treat to the mat - still dorsal here though as well
0:55-1:12 more sympathetic. Things become too much for her and she decides to move away.
Feeling: Too much, can't cope! ...the tell is here again at .58 - start getting used to what this is telling us (I could be wrong though so think about this); 1.01 you get more connection back here with your hand (ventral)..see 1.06 here again the dorsal starts to peak and ventral goes down - your hand is not enough now and she leaves. Sympathetic is what we want here but we want the ventral vagal influence more than the dorsal - sp try not to think that sympathetic is a 'bad' place. Now I really feel that her biggest tell is staring off - do you feel that the connection is lost when this happens?
with her power walk I think you are right - I would love more core activation when she does this though (technically) to make sure we dont get the hollowing of the back at .13-.14 was the best one and it was the one you recognised the most and the one that her expression changed with ..can you see this? so the mat video would be nice to put up - would you like me to do a video for you and maybe you can do the voice over - we can prepare the script (or not) and just record it and send me the mp3 audio of it? I would like to really drill down with the looking away here - I think it is a tell sorry catching up - I think the time for the coaching core videos will be soon, but from the discussions we are having on line it will still be a couple of weeks- looks like SATS has begun for Ruth but not sure about the others - next weekend three of them (Lynn, Marlene and sally) will be together so they may still be at mapping
I like your interpreation of the mat video. Yes please, change it to your words, it describes things so much better than I did. Just writing the description is fine for me. You know, me and technology...
Yes, I agree with you that she switches off a lot in this video.
I'm a bit sad that you don't want to use the PW one, she is so proud of herself in it.
Can't stay and chat, lots of dinner preps today for yummi stuff when Chris and Margaret will be over tonight. And in between we are planning for some riding at her place. Full day...
yes anything with riding in it gets you excited LOL - so even for that reason alone (riding not you)- there is just too much dogma and stereotypes that some have towards those who are not presently riding for many reasons I dont want to contribute to it and this is not a riding workshop. Could a riding one find its way in to mapping ? yes for sure but this one does have enough in it to map and discuss, further though and importantly for me I dont like to use riding ones with bits and whips - whilst I respect your choices, they are not mine and for me there is just too much valid evidence now about the impact of bits on horses and I stand pretty firmly on not using bits. Also I dont want this to turn into a discussion of this and or the panther walk as allot of the time she is dropping her back in the PW and we need to keep this about the mapping.
Ok so are you comfortable to read the script onto a recorder and send me the mp3? it would be nice to have your voice not mine
have a good day - sorry should have lead with that
Yeah, OK, I understand your point of view about riding vids. Not sure whether I can get one from the ground with only near the enthusiasm though
We don't have a recorder, sorry. I don't mind at all your voice being on it.
I think that we have a good personal profile though and the one where she was playing maybe a good one for triggers and glimmers ?
Well, if you think it's good, fine by me. Otherwise I can try again once the rain has stopped.
all computers have recorder software but audacity is the best and it free and perfectly safe to use - as long as you have a mic
I think we have the personal profile but when i do it if we are 'lacking' I can grab some of the play one that worked well
think about her pauses and what can you do to quickly change her mind OK, out I go! Yes, will do! have fun U2
13 July 2020
Senior moment: did I put yesterday's vid about Carlotta with mat on leadrope into DB? Hearing that you didn't "like" the riding one, because of shank bit and whip, I decided to make one for you in a (quickly assembled) noseband and without whip. Only, something went wrong and half of the vid got cut off. Dang...
So today made a new one for you. Wasn't ideal wither, as she seemed to have something in her left ear which annoyed her (couldn't find what it was), so there were some head shakes. But, anyway, I am putting it into DB now, FWIW.
Decided to do another "naked" mat and play session with her today as well. Not much progress to see, but at least I managed to stay patient and she decided to come back to me repeatedly.
And I am now following your wish to name the videos for better finding them. Didn't know this was possible, sorry.
14 July 2020
hahaha no did not hear from you yesterday (about the day before) - it is not that I did not 'like' the riding one, it is just I always want to try and demonstrate how I follow the science for my workshops.
at 2.10 of the play video she is interested in looking at the mat, so I would acknowledge this and see if she wanted your support to go towards it. This is good that the levarde cue gets her out of her zoning out - I would really make a big deal about that when your cue is successful. The canter video is interesting - even though she is using her neck allot here - to me she seems to have more expression - maybe it is just my bias though - interested if you can see a difference? yes so much easier when they are named - ta
OK, putting the mat-on-leadrope into DB now, just FWIW.
For the playing, I am always a bit hesistant about what I can do and what is not advisable. Like I had understood that I shouldn't encourage her too much for the levades, so I hesitate to give her the cue for it. She loves it very much and responds to it most of the time. Now, for getting her out of the zoning out, I figured to give her the cue for sticking her tongue out, as she loves this one too. Seems to work well. I tried once again to run, but again, she stopped and didn't respond. Feels good that she is starting to look at the mat here and there now. I really must try to make a lot more fuss about those!
About the canter vid: funny that you see it that way! I felt that, now she was in the noseband, she immediately started to slouch along, like she had done last time I rode her in one (was a few years ago). It felt like she didn't have much expression, neither in the PW, nore for the canter movements. And yes, there was a lot of using her neck.
I have the feeling that neither of us liked it very much.
I say to you often when she does her levades run forward that takes the strain off her hocks. As for the noseband I am speaking about her facial expressions - that tells me you are controlling her movement with the bit. not her
at 2.36 I would have finished that session as she went towards the pad at her instigation - earlier in the canter - she used her neck just as much as in the noseband - so you need to think of just how much you are putting her into a position in riding. But then when you took off her lead she zoned out but you waited until of cueing her to try and get some mastery. I dont see the tongue as giving her mastery as nothing changed after you asked for it - the 'really bad' crunch did it with the levade LOL - there was some movement so again another place to stop at 4.47 but you stopped soon after this - slowly and when there is a change for the better make a big fuss and stop
Yes, OK. But can I reward her with lots of praise when I immediately run forward?! Will try again tomorrow (sorry it's same old in today's play vid).
Gosh, I'm not good with it, eh? Will see how tomorrow goes. Off to chores now.
15 July 2020
yes for sure about the praise - I do that too. the issue with the levade is that we want to stop the actual wear on her joints - assuming this is why you worry about doing it allot - that would be my worry - so you have to make your own decisions as to how to tackle it - Sharney does them allot too but rarely do I just click in standstill and get quite excited verbally with her as she does them and as I run forward. I think things are going really well, I just think you forget your goal when you are there and get greedy - but you got a second go at stopping on a really confident point too so thats good, she gave you another
ok so the mat - you missed doing anything when her mind wandered initially but here at .31 ask her to CA - anything here to develop confidence - not just the treats - I really cannot hear you marking the treats , I assume you are, but I dont think she hears it until she gets the cue from your hand and then your 'yes yes yes' - so I want her to show more proudness when you say good job - that's what I would work on - but you know she is getting better closer to the mat now. So what can we do before we start again? think about courage - Ok so can we get closer? are you ready? then this is where Star would say with his body and do a CA - remember with Star the deal was if he did not respond when I asked are you ready then we would not proceed. What you are doing is luring here though when you put treats on the mat for her (the first is fine I feel but you keep doing it - and I am not sure for what reason except to keep her at the mat - which is luring)- I personally cannot see how that gives confidence, habituation yes, desensitisation ..maybe, depending on how she is feeling inside but how is she feeling inside? is she coping because she wants the treat? It is your call but if this were me I would want her to show me she was confident to get ready for a new approach
the others are as you say similar to before - can we try and work on more active PW? with using the core - she is often not stretching her elbow allot and she drops her core now and again - the confidence in this walk comes from the reaching and stretching
Thanks, will think about it all. Shopping day, so maybe no time to do something with Carlotta. But several sunny days expected, so we can play tomorrow.
There is today's "play" vid in your DB. I tried very hard to follow your advice. As you can see, she is not interested when, after her levade, I run off and cheer. She even turns in the opposite direction.
She did look at the mat from time to time, but not much progress, as I see it. And she didn't really want to make her PW more expressive. She usually does a much better one under saddle.
yeah I suspected that this may happen but want to see what actually does happen - will be back
I hope that I wasn't as demanding as I usually am. Tried very hard to stay out of her hair and let her decide
OK yeah she does not like to play and this is what always what I was trying to encourage as from an ethological point of view she needs to do - but I will see what I can come up with 17 Jul 2020, 17:16 Thank you Julie. If it doesn't happen, never mind, it's her autonomy to say no after all. I think that in her mind it's more important and more fun to offer me all those creative riding thinggies. She glows and sparkles with pride, when she does. She is a very dignified lady, and I have the feeling that she thinks that playing is not for her. I may be wrong, but I get those vibes from her.
18 July 2020
yeah LOL
you run as she is in the air not after she has landed hahahahaha - I think that she was just wondering what you were doing. Playing is in a horses ethology she just has it in her head that you are acting strange. I think your PW was faster and thats good, I wish she would throw her legs out a little more when they are stretched to get the full benefit of it. Just try and remember to click for anything that she does with higher energy and effort and anything of course that seems to you to show that she is inventing new things - even make sure you click and treat any time she comes to you in the paddock
Will do, Julie!
Yes, of course she gets CT for coming to me in the paddock. Which she does very often now, but only over a short distance, not from far away, like Valeta. Arctic weather today with lots of wind, which might be the reason that Carlotta wasn't much in the mood today. I didn't want to stand around any longer, so put her on the lead rope for a brief mat approach session. Loading both into DB now. dont blame you with the weather - but thats good that she comes to you often now Yes, a real progress.
19 July 2020
with the mat - see here just before 1.00 when she stepped back - this is the time to build her confidence, so she is worried ask for something that gives her confidence and then ask for 1/2 step forward and then go away- distance is reinforcing her behaviour and we need to start helping her develop confidence now as she approached the mat really well but then she just needed more confidence - the same as when she looks away - ask for a CA when she does look away - when she looks at the mat as for a CA...but this is coming along. Just be careful what you are clicking for - dont click for her eating off the mat - it is luring - she is eating it should not be a behaviour that is given a click - she wont miss that click hahahaha. with the playing video - you walked straight past the pole on the ground because you have this habit of using the arena like an arena - jump over it, panther walk over it - CA just before you are ready to step and then go over it, use more than the boundary of the arena. So here at .50 when you asked for CA when her mind was wandering, she did it, so then move on - dont try and get things perfect with SATS as doing a CA here is just to give her confidence to move on - I am still of two minds about what she does feel when she looks out - but I need to see if this works first and maybe it wont and it is not that she is worried just that she is not interested - does not help clicking here at 1.07 though - you click so much I wish you would reduce this. But there was not really any play - as you say you may not want to play and that's fine, but she does not want to walk fast around the arena either though and I think there were more pauses here than there was with the mat. It would be good to work on her PW in times like this but she has to activate the core and the stretch the leg out and 'over' and you have to as well to get the PW actually working well for her (not just speed up a walk) - I have never found a horse who does not love to do it but it has to be purposeful and not a fast walk
Yes, makes lots of sense with the map.
For the playing: I find it difficult to animate her into better PW. Any ideas how I could motivate her to give me a bit more lift? I have the feeling that it decreases somehow (on the ground). When she PWs, she does only a few steps towards the next fence, then stops.
Will try to follow the idea to not use the arena as arena. Clicking less seems quite a problem too. Each time, I try this (using verbal praise instead), she seems disappointed and frustrated, as she feels she earned the click and I didn't give it to her. So, next move, she just doesn't want to do it.
it is not just a lift with PW it is the lifting and stretching out with her leg so the space between the elbow is lengthened - I would use the pool noodle and get more stretching in a purposeful way - kind of like targeting the noodle with her leg - in fact this would make a great coaching video (or 3)
OK, will bring the poolnoodle out today and see what happens. Maybe first at stop, or in movement right away?
yep when we click all the time for 'nothing' stuff they get reliant on it and then disappointed - so click for unexpected things and create longer duration and now and again be really exited but keep going before the click.
not sure what you mean stop in movement?
I have at my inner eye that wonderful lifting and stretching in the very short riding video where she did PW. It was only 1 or 2 steps, but it was a great lift.
I meant maybe first ask her to stretch her leg out and try to get it higher and forward from the shoulder while she is stand? But shomehow this might not be very productive.
then you need to use your eye on the ground LOL
Bahahaha. Yep, time to switch on the inner picture, I suppose.
oh OK no walking straight away and you can start to click each 'target' initially and then extend the time between clicks and also change sides often
OK
oh and do it yourself as a model as well - you dont PW when you ask for it I bet I will forget half of it again. Better run out now and do some videoing, I can see the clouds getting darker and rain coming closer.
Will try baby steps (mainly for myself), i.e. poolnoodle, click each target and then extend. Wish me luck!
luck
Haha, thanks. She was difficult to motivate, so I tried to ask for very little.
OK so from the get go you stand - we need to walk we walk and then move the noodle to a place where she can kick it and then click and treat - you do know all these videos are in the workshop. She is also not responding to your click - to be honest it is the first time in a LONG time I have actually heard the click. the second click was better and yes this is what we want moving touch and click treat - except then after this you are not holding the noodle out for her to 'target' but rather you are touching her with the noddle - Carlotta does not understand why this would mean a click. At 1.53 again you are doing your skip rather than a panther walk yourself and you are not holding the noddle out in front for her to seek the noodle with her leg. Yes 2.00 exactly (except for what you are doing with your walk). The noddle has to be in front not by her side - think of this as 'can you reach the noddle with your foot?" 2.27 was better but it has to be in front of Carlotta - not on her chest - reach for the noodle - the videos I have in the workshop are showing what I mean here in case my description is what is confusing. You need to start thinking that things are not going well when she stands in the corner - she is say no stop - now I am really convinced this is her autonomy speaking. The reason why I feel the PW (done as a proper PW) may be the answer is that she will feel that she has achieved something - so this means that she has to DO something and not keep getting the free clicks and treats - this is what is unmotivating for her because the chemicals that create motivation are not being activated - the reason why the chemicals are being activated under saddle some times (not all from what I see) is that -R will also activate them but for a different reason - in -R we want to get away from the pressure and this is what motivates them - the actual stopping of the pressure under saddle is what motivates her - on the ground she has the opportunity to show you how she is really feeling - so we have to make this a puzzle to solve for her - can you revisit the PW videos and see how you go with focusing on her solving a puzzle - the noodle is out in front of her - it is a target - she has to 'hit' it with the lower part of her leg (so drop the noodle a little as well). See motivation for you (or lack of) is expression of autonomy for me. can we try again?
gasp Feeling quite overwhelmed here, Julie. Will have to read this several times and try to sort it out. Will check the vids in the workshop, especially for the position of the noodle. I thought I was holding the noodle in front of her, but apparently not. And I did click in the past, before handing the treats. No idea why you couldn't hear it. Um, maybe because at times I forgot the take the clicker in my hand and did a tongue click.
Let me check all this out and read through it and digest it and then we will try again.
OK so think if this as can your cannon bone target the noodle in front of you (not her chest or upper leg) - compare what the videos in the workshop do at first verses what you are doing - it is a HUGE push with the front leg - this takes them off balance but opens up their elbows and then they feel satisfaction with targeting it and we have the click and treat
Watched the early stage vids. Soo, I notice that you are a bit in front of Star, while I was at Carlotta's side, and thus couldn't bring the noodle far enough forward. And I had it too high, as I thought she should touch it with her "knee", not the cannon. And I didn't do the PW myself (thought I should wait for she had a bit of practice with it - wrong!). Will try again tomoz.
it is as if we want them to send the noodle into space - the noodle should nearly fall from your hands it is not wrong but we need to tweak it as there is allot of energy in the PW Yes, I am aware of this. But I wonder how I can get Carlotta to reach out that way, to start with. She seems to only want to kinda walk.
if you dont have the noodle in front she cannot understand once she accidently touches it and gets a click and treat she will cotton on
Pity the weather is so horrible today, but hopefully tomorrow I can find a dry moment... stretch with your outside hand (holding the noodle with your outside hand) and see what happens - I wish we could have your rain
Bear with me.... of course ALL the time â¤1
at times when I began the noodle would fly out of my hand LOL
but this will make the difference for her I am confident with that as all horses love it - but the energy has to be towards the noodle
I gave it a shorty try before putting her rug on now. Had her on the lead rope and stood a bit in front and held the noodle out wide, then did a PW and she started to react and stretched her legs out and touched the noodle. I didn't get her flicking it in the air, but it was a nice, expressive movement. Will see that I can film it tomorrow.
20 July 2020
great
meant to say yesterday at least when you get to Sharney's you will have a real red head!
Haha, so shall I get started with it?
Watched my vids with the mat and the noodle. I see what you mean: way too much clicking for "nothing" and I held the noodle far too close to her chest and blocked her, poor thing, now wonder she was so confused. Once the bl**dy rain has finished, I will give it another go. You can't say that the Pixio is't being used a lot!!
That was really a useful purchase.
yep when you can - have to buy a satellite phone first as I am going to get rid of the landline and Telstra - so the satellite phone will be for emergencies if the mobile goes out
but its good you can see what I am suggesting, the pixio really is valuable for sure
noodle is getting too high again second click and you lost your pw and then for the third sequence - the first one was great once you began your PW- but then you stopped it allot and moved the noodle to her chest - this is just practice - but also it was good to get her out of her zone too - lost you in the shot after that but watch where you put the noodle and stop your skip - study what happened after a few steps in your first sequence - it was great
hahahaha can you see what she started to do once you pw'ed?
Yep, she copied me and we walked in synch
Must try to get rid of that skipping, somhow it comes naturally to me. I have some problems with positioning/keeping positioned the noddle - hopefully it will improve with practice.
Didn't realise I was supposed to PW the whole time.
We were lucky to find 10 minutes without rain. So ran out, kept camera under roof, then took rug off Carlotta, cursed about some raindrops that started, and they heard me and stopped. Brought camera in, took leadrope off Carlotta and got the session done. Yay!
And the cutest thing: while I was dismantling the beacons and was proceeding with the camera towards the exit, Carlotta started to PW all on her own!
It is so nice that now, she follows me all the time in the arena and also comes when we are finished.
yep thats why I keep saying to stop the skipping as you can see what happens when you do - it will take a little time then the noodle goes but your legs have to do the PW - try this exercise - stand on two legs - bend forward just before you loose your balance and then hop on one leg forward for 3 and then do the other - practice this every day - not with her just you - you will be surprised how this will help you align your ankles, knees and hips - it is a functional exercise so if you feel you cant this is the brain telling you you cant - that is your parking brake
so this is good that she is PW - but that sequence we spoke about is the PW - not the others you have been doing
then after a while you wont need to use your legs but honestly it is a good exercise for us
you spend too long in yoga type work and not functional yet we are asking our horses to be functional
You mean sitting on our a** in front of the computer?
OK, so let me get this right: lean forward until almost loose balance, then do 3 hops on one leg, then 3 on the other, right?
no I mean your classes LOL
Bwahahaha yep after you do 3 then stop align yourself again and then do the other leg
so this is good that she is PW - but that sequence we spoke about is the PW - not the others you have been doing
Yes, today's session.
it has really helped me convince my brain that there is nothing wrong with my hip and the specialist confirmed this for me hahahaha- my brain is in the way
yes todays session - the first sequence you began to PW after a couple of strides as in a sequence is a click
