From achtung.cavello@gmail.com Mon Jul 1 22:45:11 2013 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eureka.lemis.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,FILL_THIS_FORM_SHORT, FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,T_DKIM_INVALID,URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=no version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: grog@eureka.lemis.com Delivered-To: grog@eureka.lemis.com Received: from eureka.lemis.com (eureka.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by eureka.lemis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56EBBF76D0 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 2013 22:45:10 +1000 (EST) X-Original-To: grog@lemis.com Delivered-To: grog@lemis.com Received: from mail.lemis.com [208.86.224.149] by eureka.lemis.com with POP3 (fetchmail-6.3.21) for (single-drop); Mon, 01 Jul 2013 22:45:11 +1000 (EST) Received: from mail-oa0-f66.google.com (mail-oa0-f66.google.com [209.85.219.66]) by w3.lemis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D31D53B764 for ; Mon, 1 Jul 2013 12:30:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-oa0-f66.google.com with SMTP id g12so1673470oah.5 for ; Mon, 01 Jul 2013 05:30:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=2edrCAQvPDb4f8DS+Z4uFvoRx567be+cvneG/oD24nA=; b=qVupf8PJJo39ncB3mGxnfZ09KvrhtabFyEpRwk01aSnW0c5lspMO+THJ2uuKpB2tn0 ZlZ9xNzZfLwBiLpYkgjI44gLb7FZBwPT3hBZU4k7EE5H29pLfSdkxC8oxDC5konJniLh 6jKu0fDsMQ05fGk7Q1W84Da0xJ5dlFBarZoRDJh/Wu8DpYrLSo5kUV0o6BXC4F0NActN J4iuZcgBlwIRfwbIifxN7GSjkFMyCwzn9WdvP5Beduqe0M2qZwir21FK4W2VSn/wS1lL YiIendG+Tp0ad9sqkAdgcsjxRYmje5f1HSY8UsZSf1hc6Lw3Mdc3Vh1xt+TrHQVVKvG5 BtBw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.16.137 with SMTP id g9mr10861594obd.17.1372681833357; Mon, 01 Jul 2013 05:30:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.76.109.177 with HTTP; Mon, 1 Jul 2013 05:30:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2013 18:00:33 +0530 Message-ID: Subject: Rebuttal From: J Smith To: grog@lemis.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c330ec11282004e072651e X-UIDL: o'L!!:j7!!3',!!gS0!! Status: RO Content-Length: 17555 Lines: 304 --001a11c330ec11282004e072651e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello; Hope you are well. This has a reference to your summation dated 07/01/2013 (mm/dd/yy). You seem to get confused and I guess you are highly opinionated. You never asked me for my details (religion, nationality, age or occupation). While sharing my sources with you I did categorically mentioned that the sources are critical of each other and they are merely pointers propagating alternate theories. Advocates of the Indo-European paradigm have strenuously resisted such calls for a fresh and unbiased scientific analysis of their classification methods. Commonality between Indian and European languages extends only to a small pastoral-era oral lexicon. Here are logs of our interaction from the other day (you didn't enclose these with your dairy). 1. Yes, Dravidians are typically darker-skinned than Aryans. ^X: ? Are you denying the Dravidians? <^X> grO0gle: there is a dna study now and that shows all indic races are same ^X: The "original" inhabitants of India were dark-skinned Dravidians. They were invaded by light-skinned Aryans <^X> peter: no <^X> dravida means a person coming from a place where 3 waters meet <^X> it is southern part of india <^X> and their spiritual guy coined it to introduce himself to some budhist preacher 2. <^X> evidence http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2009-09-25/india/28107253_1_inc= idence-of-genetic-diseases-indians-tribes <^X> grO0gle: there is no aryan or otherwise <^X> its all same <^X> no there is a study <^X> dna doesnt lie <^X> The study analysed 500,000 genetic markers across the genomes of 132 individuals from 25 diverse groups from 13 states. All the individuals were from six-language families and traditionally ``upper'' and ``lower'' castes and tribal groups. ^X: What these studies show is that races mix. And that the whole business is much more complicated than anybody expected. ^X> grO0gle: If you consider Europe's (so called Aryans) settlements in that age group you find nothing He's grown a beard! ^X: What does Europe have to do with the Aryans? 3. ^X: The theory is based on language. <^X> no <^X> indic language was sanskrit or something <^X> i am not much into it but i was reading some stuff in novel and later i did some research And Sanskrit is most definitely an Indo-European language= . <^X> it is not 4. Look at the strong similarities with Latin and Greek. * grO0gle smacks ^X. Go and read up before you make stupid claims like that. <^X> most southern languages have high density of sanskrit <^X> I do I've been looking this up before you were born. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_language#Classification s that all wrong? <^X> koenaard elst has debunked this whole stuff Let me break this up in bits and pieces. I provided you with a study (you already have a link for it) saying all Indian people come from same ancestry as per latest DNA studies. You tend to ignore this fact and point to aryan invasion theory, which is flawed. With regards to Indo-European Languages your contentions are baseless and I have already provided you with ample evidence to back my claim. You can categorize Vedic Sanskrit language as Indo-Iranian language originated from Saraswati civilization for which there is ample proof and archeological evidence. The New York Times David Anthony, author of the magisterial The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World , makes a criticism: "Dr. Anthony, noting that neither he nor Dr. Atkinson is a linguist, said that cognates were only one ingredient for reconstructing language trees, and that grammar and sound changes should also be used. Dr. Atkinson=92s reconstruction is =93a one-legged stool, so it=92s not surpris= ing that the tree it produces contains language groupings that would not survive if you included morphology and sound changes,=94 Dr. Anthony said. Dr. Atkinson responded that he did indeed run his computer simulation on a grammar-based tree constructed by Don Ringe, an expert on Indo-European at the University of Pennsylvania, but that the resulting origin was, again, Anatolia, not the Pontic steppe." Secondly, you have criticized some experts that I mentioned but their experience and inquiries are more authentic than your understanding of history. Here are some additional academic references for your information and records - The Indus-Saraswati civilization: Origins, problems, and issues - ISBN- 8185268460 http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/633213?uid=3D3738256&uid=3D2&uid=3D4&= sid=3D21102499298547 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3D980 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3D1012 http://vsc.iitm.ac.in/vsc.activities/transcribed.lectures/indusaryan.ht= m http://www.uwf.edu/lgoel/documents/AMythofAryanInvasionsofIndia.pdf Myth of the Aryan Invasion of India - ISBN-10: 8185990204 You can read Rajiv Malhotra's (Princeton Scholar) books for due diligence. Now coming back to your rant on your diary I will like you to elaborate - "In the past he has made himself objectionable with his unjustified hatred of all people Muslim=97and this in Singapore!" I have never shared m= y details with you, you don't know me and you are taking this out of context. I am an atheist and a vegan, I treat animal rights at par with human rights. I criticized Islam & other Abrahamic faiths for their lack of logic. Religion is an ideology and can be criticized for what it is. I take an objection to your statement - " My best guess is that ^X has been inflamed with Indian extremist fervour, which is no better than Muslim or Christian extremists.", what authority you have to judge me on something that I never professed. All men are born equal. I come across various people during my volunteer animal rights work and in past we have had a terrible situation where few religious people tried to pressure us to drop certain issues concerning religious slaughter of animals, which made me probe into certain ideology or a backward cult. You took a position without engaging with me or asking for a clarification, which is pathetic to say the least. You can look up verses in Koran 2:65 2:89 2:191-193 3:28 3:110-112 3:151 3:181 4:3 4:34 4:89 4:160 5:17 5:33 5:38 5:41 5:51 5:59-60 5:64 5:72 5:82 6:91 6:146 7:166 8:12 8:39 8:60 9:5 9:28 9:29 9:30 9:31 9:73 9:111 9:123 47:4 48:29 62:6 98:6 and build your opinion. I recall you asking me several times whether I have read it or not and yes I have read it. I can provide you with ample material if you wish. I trust common sense will prevail upon you and in future you will do your research before dismissing any theory or contrary point of view. Your assumptions are baseless and prove your ignorance. I doubt the authenticity of your book on Sanskrit and your sources (you have not provided any scholarly work as of to date, I don't count wikipedia as a benchmark). Best, Justin Smith --001a11c330ec11282004e072651e Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=A0=A0=A0 Hello;
=A0=A0=A0=A0
=A0=A0=A0 Hope you ar= e well. This has a reference to your summation dated 07/01/2013 (mm/dd/yy).= You seem to get confused and I guess you are highly opinionated. You never= asked me for my details (religion, nationality, age or occupation). While = sharing my sources with you I did categorically mentioned that the sources = are critical of each other and they are merely pointers propagating alterna= te theories. Advocates of the Indo-European paradigm have strenuously resis= ted such calls for a fresh and unbiased scientific analysis of their classi= fication methods. Commonality between Indian and European languages extends= only to a small pastoral-era oral lexicon. Here are logs of our interactio= n from the other day (you didn't enclose these with your dairy).
=A0=A0=A0=A0
=A0=A0=A0 1.=A0=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <grO0gle&g= t; Yes, Dravidians are typically darker-skinned than Aryans.
=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0 <grO0gle> ^X: ?
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <grO0gle>= Are you denying the Dravidians?
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <^X> grO0gl= e: there is a dna study now and that shows all indic races are same
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <peter> ^X: The "original" inhabitant= s of India were dark-skinned Dravidians.=A0 They were invaded by light-skin= ned Aryans
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <^X> peter: no
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0 <^X> dravida means a person coming from a place where 3 waters= meet
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <^X> it is southern part of india
=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0 <^X> and their spiritual guy coined it to introduce hims= elf to some budhist preacher
=A0=A0=A0=A0
=A0=A0=A0 2.=A0=A0
=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <^X> evidence http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2009-09-25/in= dia/28107253_1_incidence-of-genetic-diseases-indians-tribes
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <^X> grO0gle: there is no aryan or otherwise=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <^X> its all same
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <= ;^X> no there is a study
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <^X> dna doesnt = lie
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <^X> The study analysed 500,000 genetic = markers across the genomes of 132 individuals from 25 diverse groups from 1= 3 states. All the individuals were=A0 from six-language families and tradit= ionally ``upper'' and ``lower'' castes and tribal groups. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <grO0gle> ^X: What these studies show is that r= aces mix.
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <grO0gle> And that the whole busin= ess is much more complicated than anybody expected.
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0 ^X> grO0gle: If you consider Europe's (so called Aryans) settlem= ents in that age group you find nothing
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <grO0gle> He's grown a beard!
=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0 <grO0gle> ^X: What does Europe have to do with the Aryan= s?
=A0=A0=A0=A0
=A0=A0=A0 3.=A0=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <grO= 0gle> ^X: The theory is based on language.
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <= ^X> no
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <^X> indic language was sanskrit or something=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <^X> i am not much into it but i was reading = some stuff in novel and later i did some research
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = <grO0gle> And Sanskrit is most definitely an Indo-European language.<= br> =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <^X> it is not
=A0=A0=A0=A0
=A0=A0=A0 4.= =A0=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <grO0gle> Look at the strong similar= ities with Latin and Greek.
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 * grO0gle smacks ^X.=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <grO0gle> Go and read up before you make stup= id claims like that.
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <^X> most southern languages have high density = of sanskrit
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <^X> I do
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0 <grO0gle> I've been looking this up before you were born.
= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <grO0gle> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo= -European_language#Classification
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 <grO0gle> s that all wrong?
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0 <^X> koenaard elst has debunked this whole stuff
=A0=A0=A0= =A0
=A0=A0=A0 Let me break this up in bits and pieces. I provided you w= ith a study (you already have a link for it) saying all Indian people come = from same ancestry as per latest DNA studies. You tend to ignore this fact = and point to aryan invasion theory, which is flawed.
=A0=A0=A0=A0
=A0=A0=A0 With regards to Indo-European Languages your con= tentions are baseless and I have already provided you with ample evidence t= o back my claim. You can categorize Vedic Sanskrit language as Indo-Iranian= language originated from Saraswati civilization for which there is ample p= roof and archeological evidence.
=A0=A0=A0=A0
=A0=A0=A0 The New York Times David Anthony, author of the = magisterial The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from = the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World , makes a criticism:
=A0=A0= =A0=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 "Dr. Anthony, noting that= neither he nor Dr. Atkinson is a linguist, said that cognates were only on= e ingredient for reconstructing language trees, and that grammar and sound = changes should also be used. Dr. Atkinson=92s reconstruction is =93a one-le= gged stool, so it=92s not surprising that the tree it produces contains lan= guage groupings that would not survive if you included morphology and sound= changes,=94 Dr. Anthony said.
=A0=A0=A0=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Dr. Atkinson responded t= hat he did indeed run his computer simulation on a grammar-based tree const= ructed by Don Ringe, an expert on Indo-European at the University of Pennsy= lvania, but that the resulting origin was, again, Anatolia, not the Pontic = steppe."
=A0=A0=A0=A0
=A0=A0=A0 Secondly, you have criticized some experts that = I mentioned but their experience and inquiries are more authentic than your= understanding of history.
=A0=A0=A0=A0
=A0=A0=A0 Here are some addi= tional academic references for your information and records -
=A0=A0=A0 The Indus-Saraswati civilization: Origins, problems, and issues -= ISBN- 8185268460
=A0=A0=A0 http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/633213?uid=3D3738256&uid=3D2&= ;uid=3D4&sid=3D21102499298547
=A0=A0=A0 http://= languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3D980
=A0=A0=A0 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nl= l/?p=3D1012
=A0=A0=A0 http://vsc.iitm.ac.in/vsc.activities= /transcribed.lectures/indusaryan.htm
=A0=A0=A0 http://www.uwf.edu/lgoel/documents/AMythofAryanInvasionsofIn= dia.pdf
=A0=A0=A0 Myth of the Aryan Invasion of India - ISBN-10: 818= 5990204
=A0=A0=A0=A0
=A0=A0=A0 You can read Rajiv Malhotra's (Princeton Sch= olar) books for due diligence.
=A0=A0=A0=A0
=A0=A0=A0 Now coming bac= k to your rant on your diary I will like you to elaborate - "In the pa= st he has made himself objectionable with his unjustified hatred of all peo= ple Muslim=97and this in Singapore!" I have never shared my details wi= th you, you don't know me and you are taking this out of context. I am = an atheist and a vegan, I treat animal rights at par with human rights. I c= riticized Islam & other Abrahamic faiths for their lack of logic. Relig= ion is an ideology and can be criticized for what it is. I take an objectio= n to your statement - " My best guess is that ^X has been inflamed wit= h Indian extremist fervour, which is no better than Muslim or Christian ext= remists.", what authority you have to judge me on something that I nev= er professed. All men are born equal.
=A0=A0=A0=A0
=A0=A0=A0 I come across various people during my volunteer= animal rights work and in past we have had a terrible situation where few = religious people tried to pressure us to drop certain issues concerning rel= igious slaughter of animals, which made me probe into certain ideology or a= backward cult. You took a position without engaging with me or asking for = a clarification, which is pathetic to say the least. You can look up verses= in Koran 2:65 2:89 2:191-193 3:28 3:110-112 3:151 3:181 4:3 4:34 4:89 4:16= 0 5:17 5:33 5:38 5:41 5:51 5:59-60 5:64 5:72 5:82 6:91 6:146 7:166 8:12 8:3= 9 8:60 9:5 9:28 9:29 9:30 9:31 9:73 9:111 9:123 47:4 48:29=A0 62:6 98:6 and= build your opinion. I recall you asking me several times whether I have re= ad it or not and yes I have read it. I can provide you with ample material = if you wish.
=A0=A0=A0=A0
=A0=A0=A0 I trust common sense will prevail upon you and i= n future you will do your research before dismissing any theory or contrary= point of view. Your assumptions are baseless and prove your ignorance. I d= oubt the authenticity of your book on Sanskrit and your sources (you have n= ot provided any scholarly work as of to date, I don't count wikipedia a= s a benchmark).
=A0=A0=A0=A0
=A0=A0=A0 Best,
=A0=A0=A0=A0
=A0=A0=A0 Justin Smith=
--001a11c330ec11282004e072651e--